833 réponses à ce sujet

[Niamaduir]

I enjoyed Anders as a character, and I did romance him. However, I also killed him in my first playthrough after he blew up the Chantry and then I sided with the mages as I had been throughout the game. I could not condone his actions. Nothing, not even a flawed system of subjugation and abuse merits an act of terrorism. Even though, Kirkwall's Chantry had failed to reign in the Templars or even investigate the charges of corruption by calling in the Seekers. Nothing justifies the loss of innocent lives on the scale of the Chantry explosion.  (I kinda wish there was a quest in DA:2 that was along the lines of the Season Unending in Skyrim but alas there is not.) 

 

Anders, though his actions are misguided, does have a valid point. The Circle of Magi is a broken system. In Origins, it is made clear through conversations with Wynne and her party banter that mages have very few freedoms. They are discouraged, if not outrightly forbidden, from marrying. If a mage should have a child, that child is taken away from them and never seen again. Depending on the Circle, mages can also be subject to verbal, sexual, and emotional abuse, which does not necessarily end if the mage is made Tranquil. 

 

Bioware has in essence done such a good job at developing the issue of magic being dangerous because of demons and blood magic that it is easy to forget that these are people who are being reviled, mistreated, and segregated because they have been born different. There is, in fact, a whole, normative religion based on how evil and sinful magic is and how dangerous. 

 

Whenever you complicate an issue such as widespread bigotry and discrimination with a power such as magic (or mutant powers if I can be indulged to make such a comparison) you end up making the issue even more complex. It forces you not only to contemplate the nature of human difference, but also human nature itself. Essentially, you have two questions to answer: do you believe that people, irregardless of the circumstances of their birth deserve to have the same rights and freedoms as the rest of humanity? and, do you believe that people can be responsible with a power that has the potential to cause great devastation, destruction and pain if abused? Or to put it another way, when by your very nature you are a living weapon, do you deserve to be free, or must you be heavily regulated and/or imprisoned because you "MIGHT" be tempted to abuse your abilities?

 

For me, the answer is always that people deserve their freedom no matter what they can or cannot do. Debasing someone because they are different is wrong and to me morally reprehensible. So I will always support mages and will be working towards an ending in Inquisition that sees the Circles disbanded and I hope that we get to see a DA:4 where mages are free and possibly still dealing with the vestiges of the Circle of Magi system, much in the way we are still dealing with issues of racism today.

 

I might let Anders live in my next playthrough, just to have the headcanon of making him live with the reality of all the innocent lives he's taken. If I romanced him as well though, I would probably not run off with him, blowing up the Chantry is still a deal breaker.

 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The man murdered over a hundred innocent people, most of whom had nothing to do with the conflict that he was so obsessed with. He did this knowing that the templars would use it as the perfect excuse to murder the very people whose freedom he apparently wanted to secure, allowing the mages of Kirkwall  to be slaughtered in the faint hope that their pointless death could start some kind of revolution that of course would lead to the deaths of thousands of more people and did. It's Reaper logic to a tee; I must get mages killed to ensure that they get their freedom. What?  

 

Furthermore, Anders had no plan for mage freedom after Kirkwall. No allies. No strongholds. No secret weapons. No military forces. No political friends. He was an insane, bipolar, idiot and abomination who started a ridiculous war that almost no one wanted and began with everybody in Thedas fearing once more mages because of his madness-induced actions. Even Varric of all people hates him and his fellow rebel mages ostracize and want nothing to do with him. 

 

The moron should have just stayed in Darktown and stuck to healing people instead of starting fights he couldn't possibly finish. 

 

This sums it up for me. I do not hate Anders for his views, though I do vehemently disagree with them. What makes me hate him is that he is a jerk-off. He is self-righteous, sees anyone who disagrees with him as unholy/cannot accept that there are valid views against his position, and is often hypocritical in applying the views he stands for. Those things will make me hate anyone, every time, even if I share their beliefs.

 

He is also not very convincing, either. He picks fights with so many people over mage rights and then gets shown up pretty much every time, usually by a former slave who cannot even read any of those stupid manifestos he writes. I was actually pretty open to the idea of freeing the mages when I first started playing this game. Ironically, he was one of the biggest things that pushed me away from his position. Is there anything Anders does not fail at??

 

I also do not hate that he killed innocents, either, I just hate that there was nothing more to his plan than blind rage and yet more of his black-and-white approach to this issue. I respect pragmatism. If he could demonstrate how his means would lead to his desired ends, I would have respected that, if nothing else. I do not respect emotional pique. He was no friend of mine. I cannot even say he was a worthy adversary.

[Commander Rpg]

Anders reminds me of someone that blocked me on Facebook, just because the other person was terribly wrong and didn't admit it, adducing his knowledge on the matter - which didn't justify what he said - and ultimately putting a wall so I couldn't disrupt his certainties.

 

An ignorant person is understandable, if she commits an mistake.

If the same person states to be right, not ignorant, she maybe has to bear the responsibility of that knowledge. Like Anders didn't and that person didn't, they both have fled to their "perfect worlds".

[Ambivalent]

In Awakenings he was really nice but in DA2 he was whiny, lost his appetite, makes everyone to lose their will to live, a sneaky terrorist.

 

Not saying he's wrong, i always hated chantry and templars too in all my playthroughs. Both chantry and templars reminds me of church in medieval era. Too dumb to understand and too scared to lose power. 

 

Anyway his actions caused Hawke not to find a peaceful solution. Just before that s/he was trying to convince both sides but Anders messed it up. So with lack of a choice that can make peace i didn't like his methods. Not saying Hawke would be able to cool down everyone but at least s/he was trying.

 

In the end i always supported mages instead of zealous oppressors just to record.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

No. 

[Gago]

I didn't like him much in Awakening and in DAII my opinion was hey he was my old companion, maybe he is better. Bah I grew tired of him quickly, he is spamming 24/7. He is schizophrenic and short-sighted fanatic, he doesn't stop for a second to rethink his actions or to see the other side of the coin. I hate people like him with mentality "either with us or against us", I wanted to beat him to death when he says I have to distract the Elthina so he can do something which won't tell me anything about. He doesn't even question himself that he is maybe wrong or he is doing something wrong. No! He knows what is best for everyone and you must do as he commands it, if you decline to participate in his terrorist scheme you are a liar, traitor, unbeliever! His idea "free mages, kill templars!" was destined to fail; okay we freed the mages and killed countless templars at the end of DAII (the Grand Cleric and some priests and civilians is a bonus). Now what? Live happily ever after?   

[LightningPoodle]

He's a decent character. Well written.

 

... No, I don't like him.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He was crazy. By the end there was nothing left in him but this insane need to start a war nobody could win.

 

Seriously though, Anders logic isn't hard to understand. It's just reprehensible. 

[Natureguy85]

He was crazy. By the end there was nothing left in him but this insane need to start a war nobody could win.

 

Seriously though, Anders logic isn't hard to understand. It's just reprehensible. 

 

Actually my biggest problem is that I don't see the logic in starting a war by attacking a civilian target but leaving the martial arm untouched.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He needs to martial arm intact to attack the mages, so they would fight back. Killing Elthina both provokes Meredith into a rage and remove the last remnants of restrictions on her.

[Miss Golightly]

I kind of liked him in Awakening, but then I got to DA2, and I couldn't stand him or Fenris. Two extremes that I just couldn't bring myself to even entertain. Nope, my femHawke remained a single lady who lived by the unwritten "sisters before misters" rule. I consider Isabela to be her unlikely best friend, and that's as good as it gets.

[Rhidor]

I'm not sure how far this thread went, but I definitely liked Anders in Awakening. His character there even overshadowed the (for me) not as likeable DA2 Anders in my first playthrough.

[Seyd71]

I liked him, but he did whine and/or complain quite a lot sometimes. My other problem was with how they kept throwing his sexuality in your face. He was good in Awakening, and he casually comments on romance by saying that he'd like to settle down with a nice girl someday. If they wanted him to be Bisexual then they should've established it in Awakening instead of meeting some weird dude named Karl and having an awkward moment listening to a guy you just met talk about him being his "first" before coming on to you. I don't really care that he's bisexual, but when you JUST meet a guy and he comes on to you, and you just want to stay friends, it makes it weird. I had to pretend to be interested in him just so I wouldn't lose approval with him the first time we talked.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Nope.

[Natureguy85]

He needs to martial arm intact to attack the mages, so they would fight back. Killing Elthina both provokes Meredith into a rage and remove the last remnants of restrictions on her.

 

Ok, I can see some sense in that. I think Meredith would still have tried Annulment, especially since she was going crazy and an attack on the Templars would give the mages a better chance to win.

 

I liked him, but he did whine and/or complain quite a lot sometimes. My other problem was with how they kept throwing his sexuality in your face. He was good in Awakening, and he casually comments on romance by saying that he'd like to settle down with a nice girl someday. If they wanted him to be Bisexual then they should've established it in Awakening instead of meeting some weird dude named Karl and having an awkward moment listening to a guy you just met talk about him being his "first" before coming on to you. I don't really care that he's bisexual, but when you JUST meet a guy and he comes on to you, and you just want to stay friends, it makes it weird. I had to pretend to be interested in him just so I wouldn't lose approval with him the first time we talked.

 

Actually I wonder if he's bisexual or if he's "player sexual". The reason is that I don't recall hearing him make any comments about Karl being his first for my female Hawke. I don't remember anything indicating he was anything more than Anders' best friend. I could be wrong or remembering incorrectly though. It's been a long time since I played that.

[Sah291]

 
Actually I wonder if he's bisexual or if he's "player sexual". The reason is that I don't recall hearing him make any comments about Karl being his first for my female Hawke. I don't remember anything indicating he was anything more than Anders' best friend. I could be wrong or remembering incorrectly though. It's been a long time since I played that.

His relationship with Karl is considered canon now I think. It is referenced in the new WoT2 book. If I recall, his writer didn't put it in with fem Hawke because she didn't feel he would want to mention Karl to a female love interest...which is a shame because he has some of his best romance lines in that convo (the one about loving a whole person), IMO. Also I think the relationship with Karl does a lot to explain some of his actions and behavior towards Hawke. It's kinda important to his subplot. So I just prefer him with male Hawke....for the friendmance anyway. I do find fem Hawke slightly better for the rivalry path, with the dialogue changes.

[Kakistos_]

Anders is bae. I like him as a character very much and agree with his views and actions. Hawke and Anders. Rebel lovers on the run forever. Well, until my Mage HOF crushes anyone stupid enough to threaten a fellow Warden and Circle Tower mate. I won't pretend that I wasn't put off my the terrorism a little. If he had just killed everyone in the Chantry then that would have been more tolerable. But anyway, in hindsight, what choice did he really have? No one looks back in time and goes: "The slaves were wrong for rebelling even though they had no other recourse". This is no different.

 

Meredith was openly considering the Rite of Annulment and other Templars were considering Tranquilizing all Mages but by the grace of Justinia could have very well succeded. And destroying the Chantry wasn't his go-to option. He did try to find peaceful solutions with Elthina but she was commited to being useless. Many of the Mages ended up dying anyway but if not for Anders' actions Meredith could have issued the order in the dead of night catching the Mages unawares resulting in their complete annihilation, including Bethany.

[KotorEffect3]

The templars treated the mages worse than animals.  He basically told the templars "Screw You" and fought back.  Yeah I like him.

[old_dawn]

Yeah Anders is a nice guy but he's shouldn't have bonded with the spirit.

[Natureguy85]

Anders is bae. I like him as a character very much and agree with his views and actions. Hawke and Anders. Rebel lovers on the run forever. Well, until my Mage HOF crushes anyone stupid enough to threaten a fellow Warden and Circle Tower mate. I won't pretend that I wasn't put off my the terrorism a little. If he had just killed everyone in the Chantry then that would have been more tolerable. But anyway, in hindsight, what choice did he really have? No one looks back in time and goes: "The slaves were wrong for rebelling even though they had no other recourse". This is no different.

 

Meredith was openly considering the Rite of Annulment and other Templars were considering Tranquilizing all Mages but by the grace of Justinia could have very well succeded. And destroying the Chantry wasn't his go-to option. He did try to find peaceful solutions with Elthina but she was commited to being useless. Many of the Mages ended up dying anyway but if not for Anders' actions Meredith could have issued the order in the dead of night catching the Mages unawares resulting in their complete annihilation, including Bethany.

 

So killing all the people in the Chantry was fine, but blowing up the building was the problem? He had a lot of choices. First off, not becoming the very thing that makes the Templars watch the mages so closely. Secondly, where did Anders try and find peaceful solutions? Maybe he did and I just don't remember, but after destroying the Chantry he says he purposely killed Elthina to remove all chance of compromise.

[gnewna]

I liked him, but he did whine and/or complain quite a lot sometimes. My other problem was with how they kept throwing his sexuality in your face. He was good in Awakening, and he casually comments on romance by saying that he'd like to settle down with a nice girl someday. If they wanted him to be Bisexual then they should've established it in Awakening instead of meeting some weird dude named Karl and having an awkward moment listening to a guy you just met talk about him being his "first" before coming on to you. I don't really care that he's bisexual, but when you JUST meet a guy and he comes on to you, and you just want to stay friends, it makes it weird. I had to pretend to be interested in him just so I wouldn't lose approval with him the first time we talked.

 

I'm pretty sure you only hear that if you flirt with him, I don't remember getting the story on my second or third (Fenris-romancing) playthroughs. (And you don't hear it at all as a fem!Hawke, apparently, which is a shame, although sort of understandable.) My non-Anders romancing Hawkes both avoided flirt and heartbreak options (because, well, at that stage they did want to be friends with him so "keep your personal stuff to yourself, this is business only" seemed a bit harsh) and I'm pretty sure they're none the wiser about Karl.

 

 

Ok, I can see some sense in that. I think Meredith would still have tried Annulment, especially since she was going crazy and an attack on the Templars would give the mages a better chance to win.

 

 

Actually I wonder if he's bisexual or if he's "player sexual". The reason is that I don't recall hearing him make any comments about Karl being his first for my female Hawke. I don't remember anything indicating he was anything more than Anders' best friend. I could be wrong or remembering incorrectly though. It's been a long time since I played that.

 

I think it's more "he doesn't tell you about Karl if he's not pretty sure you're a dude into dudes." C.f. my m!Hawkes not hearing about Karl if not flirting with him. (It's a shame he doesn't tell a fem!Hawke who's been openly flirting with Merrill/Isabela, I guess.) Just because he doesn't tell you about the relationship doesn't mean it didn't happen, and if anything, if he is "playersexual" (which I personally headcanon that he is but I don't think it's especially well supported in the text, as it were) it's that he's basically gay but will still fall for fem!Hawke, because she's just so darned Hawke-y. 

 

My first playthrough I romanced Anders and had a total crush on him. I was pretty horrified by his actions at the end, but my Hawke stayed with him. My second one I decided to romance Fenris and felt awful about Anders' puppy dog eyes right up until the Avril Lavigne moment when he - in the middle of involving me in his murderplot, mind you, starts banging on about how Hawke should be with "someone more open minded." And then him laughing at Fenris being crap at... well, he's not trying to flirt as such, is he? The bit where he's all "um, anyway, it's, er, nice to see you?" in Legacy didn't help.

[Asch Lavigne]

I disliked him from the moment they rewrote that he took Justice in him. Or that he was a warden regardless of what you did in Awakening. Same with Justice.

 

I felt like he was nothing like the Anders in Awakening. I can handle a progression in character personality between the games, but it felt like two different characters to me.

 

And of course the icing on the cake, starting a war to try and help people. I get that he wanted this resolved with out a mediator in the middle, ie the chantry, but starting a war, hows does that accomplish anything good, it just makes people hate mages all the more because of what he did.

 

I did love how he thought he'd be a hero or a martyr and well, play Inquisition and ask Varric about him if you let him live.

[MisterJB]

 

I wish there was an appropriate response to this:

 

"Non-Mage Human PC: That's life for you.

Anders: Says the one born on the right side of humanity."

 

Something to point out that Cousland has nearly his whole family slaugthered by those they believed to be friends and then the organization that saved his/her life and  willing to take him/her in was slaugthered by those they believed to be allies.

 

Life is difficult for everyone, not just mages.

 

[andy6915]

My first playthrough I romanced Anders and had a total crush on him. I was pretty horrified by his actions at the end, but my Hawke stayed with him. My second one I decided to romance Fenris and felt awful about Anders' puppy dog eyes right up until the Avril Lavigne moment when he - in the middle of involving me in his murderplot, mind you, starts banging on about how Hawke should be with "someone more open minded." And then him laughing at Fenris being crap at... well, he's not trying to flirt as such, is he? The bit where he's all "um, anyway, it's, er, nice to see you?" in Legacy didn't help.

 
That was annoying. I brought Fenris with me on that quest and was romancing him, so Anders (rivalry path) just starts badmouthing him right in front of him for seemingly no reason other than being a dick. Fenris was clearly annoyed, but kept his cool and pretty much just shut him down in a single sentence and that was the end of the conversation. I don't even know where it came from since I didn't do a single flirt with Anders in the whole game and Anders clearly didn't like Hawke much, so it being jealousy wouldn't make sense. Which is why I said it's like he did it just to be a dick.
 

I disliked him from the moment they rewrote that he took Justice in him. Or that he was a warden regardless of what you did in Awakening. Same with Justice.

I felt like he was nothing like the Anders in Awakening. I can handle a progression in character personality between the games, but it felt like two different characters to me.

And of course the icing on the cake, starting a war to try and help people. I get that he wanted this resolved with out a mediator in the middle, ie the chantry, but starting a war, hows does that accomplish anything good, it just makes people hate mages all the more because of what he did.

That was the point. Someone possessed by a demon (which Justice was by that point) forever changes you. He isn't acting like Anders because he is NOT ANDERS ANYMORE. The change in character is the entire point, the point being to show that possession with even seemingly nice spirits can and will forever change who you are. He's Anders, but he is not Anders. Or do you expect an abomination to be exactly as they were before possession?

[erilben]

 

That was the point. Someone possessed by a demon (which Justice was by that point) forever changes you. He isn't acting like Anders because he is NOT ANDERS ANYMORE. The change in character is the entire point, the point being to show that possession with even seemingly nice spirits can and will forever change who you are. He's Anders, but he is not Anders. Or do you expect an abomination to be exactly as they were before possession?

 

The thing is that Anders was acting out of character before he was even possessed by Justice. According to Anders in DA2 and to the Anders short story, Anders merges with Justice because he wanted help with freeing the mages. However in DAA, Anders is actually opposed to the mages breaking away from the Chantry.  It doesn't make any sense he would do something as crazy as to let a spirit possess him in order to get something he doesn't even want to do.