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[gnewna]

 
That was annoying. I brought Fenris with me on that quest and was romancing him, so Anders (rivalry path) just starts badmouthing him right in front of him for seemingly no reason other than being a dick. Fenris was clearly annoyed, but kept his cool and pretty much just shut him down in a single sentence and that was the end of the conversation. I don't even know where it came from since I didn't do a single flirt with Anders in the whole game and Anders clearly didn't like Hawke much, so it being jealousy wouldn't make sense. Which is why I said it's like he did it just to be a dick.
 

 

Same. I never picked a single flirt option with *any* other character in that playthrough because my Hawke just wasn't interested in any of the others, and he met Fenris pretty early on and got the impression (okay, I was aware Fenris's romance is kinda buggy but tbh it fits him) that Fenris was not the type to be comfortable with a potential lover who's always flirting with everyone who comes his way, so he didn't bother. I *still* got the "woah, steady on, there" heartbreak dialogue option in spite of it (I don't recall getting that with Isabela or Merrill, but I could be wrong) and I chose to ignore it because, well, like I said above, it's kinda overly harsh. From what I've read, if you don't pick that option then he does the whole "scent marking" thing SIX YEARS LATER with Fenris only. (I was actually still feeling badly for the guy right up until that point, when he says something about knowing Hawke "would stand by him, even if..." my heart broke a little). I'm pretty sure he's just obsessed (yes, romantically, but also just kinda generally) with Hawke, whether he *likes* them or not seems not to come into it - I can't remember for sure, but I don't think I bothered much about his rival/friend score on that playthrough, he was maaaaaaaybe around 40% R at that point in the game? Either way, they definitely hadn't spent that much time together, my Hawke was a Spirit Healer so I didn't need to bring him along from that perspective, and I was really digging my Varric/Fenris/Merril team. Evidently he'd had a lot of time to stew in his clinic.

 

 

 

I wish there was an appropriate response to this:

 

"Non-Mage Human PC: That's life for you.

Anders: Says the one born on the right side of humanity."

 

Something to point out that Cousland has nearly his whole family slaugthered by those they believed to be friends and then the organization that saved his/her life and  willing to take him/her in was slaugthered by those they believed to be allies.

 

Life is difficult for everyone, not just mages.

 

 

Hmm, yeah, but up until the bloody slaughter of Cousland's family, they had had a rather better chance at life than basically anyone with the misfortune to be born a mage (I mean, at least they KNEW their family - I think the Ferelden Circle is more relaxed about that than the Kirkwall one, particularly for noble families, but at best children in the Circle just get visits/contact with their family, they don't get to grow up with them). Privilege doesn't mean nothing terrible can ever happen to you, but equally, having terrible things happen to you doesn't negate the silver spoon you were born with.

[MisterJB]

Hmm, yeah, but up until the bloody slaughter of Cousland's family, they had had a rather better chance at life than basically anyone with the misfortune to be born a mage (I mean, at least they KNEW their family - I think the Ferelden Circle is more relaxed about that than the Kirkwall one, particularly for noble families, but at best children in the Circle just get visits/contact with their family, they don't get to grow up with them). Privilege doesn't mean nothing terrible can ever happen to you, but equally, having terrible things happen to you doesn't negate the silver spoon you were born with.

And to most people, mages are born with a silver spoon. They have the ability to melt anyone who annoys them and they get to live in luxurious towers for it.

It's not an entirely accurate description, of course, but after spending time in Awakening where anyone not living within city walls was being kileld by Darkspawn, seeing the fate of women captured by them and then spending years midst the refugees of Darktown, Anders would have gotten some perspective.

Sadly, he didn't.
 

[andy6915]

I *still* got the "woah, steady on, there" heartbreak dialogue option in spite of it (I don't recall getting that with Isabela or Merrill, but I could be wrong) and I chose to ignore it because, well, like I said above, it's kinda overly harsh. From what I've read, if you don't pick that option then he does the whole "scent marking" thing SIX YEARS LATER

 

I never get that on any playthrough. Ever. I don't even have a heartbreak option presented to me at any point with him, because there's never a point where he even comes on to me. Getting on his case about being an abomination right from the get-go with him makes him never even try to come onto you to require turning him down, it simply never comes up in the first place. You have to be somewhat accepting of him being fused with a spirit for him to try coming onto you, whereas my characters make it clear that they think that he's a freak who made an extremely dumb move by doing so pretty much as soon as they find out.

 

It's amazing how few people realize that the flirting he does after the Karl mission, and the subsequent shoot down you need to do to it, are both avoidable and optional.

[Natureguy85]

 
That was annoying. I brought Fenris with me on that quest and was romancing him, so Anders (rivalry path) just starts badmouthing him right in front of him for seemingly no reason other than being a dick. Fenris was clearly annoyed, but kept his cool and pretty much just shut him down in a single sentence and that was the end of the conversation. I don't even know where it came from since I didn't do a single flirt with Anders in the whole game and Anders clearly didn't like Hawke much, so it being jealousy wouldn't make sense. Which is why I said it's like he did it just to be a dick.
 

That was the point. Someone possessed by a demon (which Justice was by that point) forever changes you. He isn't acting like Anders because he is NOT ANDERS ANYMORE. The change in character is the entire point, the point being to show that possession with even seemingly nice spirits can and will forever change who you are. He's Anders, but he is not Anders. Or do you expect an abomination to be exactly as they were before possession?

 

The problem is that this happens off screen so it loses the effectiveness it could have had.

 

The thing is that Anders was acting out of character before he was even possessed by Justice. According to Anders in DA2 and to the Anders short story, Anders merges with Justice because he wanted help with freeing the mages. However in DAA, Anders is actually opposed to the mages breaking away from the Chantry.  It doesn't make any sense he would do something as crazy as to let a spirit possess him in order to get something he doesn't even want to do.

 

Nice catch. Anders wanted his own freedom but didn't seem too interested in a greater movement.

[Sah291]

Nice catch. Anders wanted his own freedom but didn't seem too interested in a greater movement.

 

To be fair, none of them did. They all had their own pet causes and world view, and didn't really see eye to eye much beyond that. Hawke was the common thread... which is why Cassandra wanted him/her in the first place...

 

Anders did seem interested in DAA, he just wasn't as radical, and he does mention how he used to be more selfish.

[Natureguy85]

To be fair, none of them did. They all had their own pet causes and world view, and didn't really see eye to eye much beyond that. Hawke was the common thread... which is why Cassandra wanted him/her in the first place...

 

Anders did seem interested in DAA, he just wasn't as radical, and he does mention how he used to be more selfish.

 

None of who did? Do you mean the DA2 group? Anders was the only one directly involved and invested. Now had each character had their own pet cause and asked for your help, that would be cool. And I don't mean relationship quests like those involving Merrill's mirror. I mean actual plot quests that would branch paths.

[gnewna]

Ah, well, my Hawkes have all been either a/ polite or b/ self-serving enough not to immediately get on the guy's case when they need his help, so, I'm not about to take dialogue options they wouldn't say just to avoid being flirted with (I also don't remember exactly what he says, but it didn't really come across to me as "coming on to Hawke", anyway, tbh.)

[Sah291]

None of who did? Do you mean the DA2 group? Anders was the only one directly involved and invested. Now had each character had their own pet cause and asked for your help, that would be cool. And I don't mean relationship quests like those involving Merrill's mirror. I mean actual plot quests that would branch paths.

Yeah, I meant the DA2 companions, sorry. Anders was still always Andrastian though, like Wynne, and was never outright anti Chantry at first. That came later, but pretty much up until act 3 he still believed the Chantry could be compromised with, so I don't think they really changed his character as much as it seems.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, Justice was often trying to convince Anders to help his fellow mages. I think the idea is that he convinced him to try to make a difference for people other than himself. And the fact that he wanted to bring down Chantry system was something he came up with after being merged with Justice.

[Gago]

I didn't like him in Awakening, I hated him in DA2.

[Milana]

I think half of the fandom hates him and the other loves him.

But since Bioware developers themselves seem to not like him and labeled him as a terrorist,I guess hate wins.

As for me, I understand his motives, and he'll always be my favorite companion.

[Natureguy85]

Well, Justice was often trying to convince Anders to help his fellow mages. I think the idea is that he convinced him to try to make a difference for people other than himself. And the fact that he wanted to bring down Chantry system was something he came up with after being merged with Justice.

 

I'm not sure about that. He says Justice was changed by his hatred, so he probably already had the goal, even if he wouldn't have ever gone as far as he eventually did. This was one of my problems though; I never got a "hatred" vibe from Awakening Anders. One could argue that it was hidden behind his joking, but I don't like stuff like that being revealed off screen.

 

I'm guessing it was partly influence, but Justice himself would never kill innocents to make a point. Either it really was Vengeance because of Anders hatred, or Anders always had that dark side, and he managed to overpower Justice and harness his power.

 

I found something interesting I never noticed before. When you talk to the spirit during the Gauntlet in DAO, you can either answer her riddle with "Justice" or "Vengeance" and like Mercy and Compassion (Cole), it seems both go hand in hand, so I really wonder if Anders was simply bringing out another side to Justice and didn't completely lose him like he said?

Well revenge is usually seen as justice by those seeking it. Look at Sebastian for this idea.

[Chiramu]

To answer the question, yes.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not sure about that. He says Justice was changed by his hatred, so he probably already had the goal, even if he wouldn't have ever gone as far as he eventually did. This was one of my problems though; I never got a "hatred" vibe from Awakening Anders. One could argue that it was hidden behind his joking, but I don't like stuff like that being revealed off screen.

 

Well revenge is usually seen as justice by those seeking it. Look at Sebastian for this idea.

 

I think Anders did hate Templars in Awakening. But I think it was hidden underneath his humor. When you first meet him he finds the Templar escorting him being killed by darkspawn to be funny.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean it would have translated into a belief in tearing down the Circle system though. In fact I think the very statement he makes about not wanting the mages to break away entirely was accompanied by him also saying he hated Chantry oversight.

[Natureguy85]

I think Anders did hate Templars in Awakening. But I think it was hidden underneath his humor. When you first meet him he finds the Templar escorting him being killed by darkspawn to be funny.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean it would have translated into a belief in tearing down the Circle system though. In fact I think the very statement he makes about not wanting the mages to break away entirely was accompanied by him also saying he hated Chantry oversight.

 

Yeah, I remember that. He certainly didn't like those templars becase they didn't treat him well, but wasn't sure if it was specific or if he hated the Templars and Chantry generally. That paradox of Anders hating Chantry oversight but being somewhat understanding of why it's there was what made him a deeper character than the man in DA2.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well he also does say "the things you people know about justice would fill a thimble" to the templar who tries to arrest him with Alistair. 

[Nelyafinwe]

Anders was alright in Awakening, he was downright awful in DA2.

[Kevorka]

:)He is better in Awakening. Justice just ruined the guy.

[cactusberry]

I strongly dislike Anders.

[sjsharp2011]

agreed @ Kavorka as much as Anders disliked the Circle and Templars and the way he and his fellow mages are treated. I don't think he'd have taken that strong an action if Justice hadn't been part of him. It was effectively Justice in my view that caused him to self destruct.

[DollyLlama]

I adored the more selfish Anders. I think in some ways I saw him as a personality fusion of Zevran and Alistair. Anders used to have the same lovable humor I got from Alistair, but just enough flirtiness from Zevran to make it worth it. During Awakening, he stole the show for me. He just wanted a pretty girl and to zap booties. I support that. He can zap booties any day.

 

In DA2, I saw glimpses, but I didn't feel the same umph as I did before. The voice actor wasn't bad, and I loved his romanced battle lines (heartbreaking) but... I dunno. I felt like DA2 had a lot of unexplored dialog. For example, I'd felt like Justice was manipulating everything from the beginning. Once Hawke had standing, even the first romance scene sounded more like Justice propaganda than Anders being in love. Was Justice trying to make it work for his benefit? Why did falling in love have to be about sticking it to the Templars? Curse you, Justice.

 

While he did merge with Justice, I've always seen it as the standard Fantasy lore. And possibly even scifi lore. When someone's possessed, you have two spirits fighting for survival. The spirit with the stronger will survives.  Justice was/is? a long-lived spirit. Anders was more than likely created upon conception, depending on what they believed. I'd say that Anders had a weaker will. In most cases in general "possession" lore I've read, the host is often wittled away by the new guy. Eventually Justice would burn through Anders' spirit and he'd be no more.

 

I feel like this was happening to Anders. So, if you hate Anders, you're more than likely hating Justice. The line between Anders and Justice was getting fuzzy, but by Act 3, I feel like it was too obvious who won the inner battle. Like my dear sweet Raistlin Majere (who also made a deal for power), he dyed his robes black and went dark. Why is it that the mages I love end up dying? And yes, I did love 'em and stab 'em. It was a mercy kill.

[Natureguy85]

While he did merge with Justice, I've always seen it as the standard Fantasy lore. And possibly even scifi lore. When someone's possessed, you have two spirits fighting for survival. The spirit with the stronger will survives.  Justice was/is? a long-lived spirit. Anders was more than likely created upon conception, depending on what they believed. I'd say that Anders had a weaker will. In most cases in general "possession" lore I've read, the host is often wittled away by the new guy. Eventually Justice would burn through Anders' spirit and he'd be no more.

 

I feel like this was happening to Anders. So, if you hate Anders, you're more than likely hating Justice. The line between Anders and Justice was getting fuzzy, but by Act 3, I feel like it was too obvious who won the inner battle. Like my dear sweet Raistlin Majere (who also made a deal for power), he dyed his robes black and went dark. Why is it that the mages I love end up dying? And yes, I did love 'em and stab 'em. It was a mercy kill.

 

According to Anders, they are now one being.