833 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Krytie]

I love Anders. I think he's a fascinating character and I enjoyed his character progression from Awakening to Kirkwall. I don't think I need to say I don't condone the murdering of innocents. Though, Anders always makes me wonder what I'd do if I were living under the same conditions.

[SmilesJA]

I never really liked Anders from Awakening. He was too much like an Allistair clone.

[Adanu]

I think he did the only thing he could do in his situation, and while I don't like it, his actions were the only way to get change started.

 

One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

[whanzephruseke]

If one's lack of self-awareness goes that far, there's something seriously wrong with that person.

 

Yeah, I think the whole sharing his consciousness with a spirit thing was the first clue.  But who wants a story filled with well-adjusted, rational characters?  Give me beautifully broken ones any day.

[SharlenaSharlena]

I disliked him in Awakening but felt his character was really heartfelt and his story line memorable in DA2. He was so complex and well written!

[Madeline McQueen]

I LOVE Anders!  . He is definitely my favorite character in Dragon Age II. Yeah he can moan a bit who doesn't? And yeah he is a bit down but that's his attractive, dark, moody side   lol. Besides he did have his good moments, he did tell a few jokes, had a few laughs, also he is passionate and deep which is a plus in my books  . 

[Ryriena]

Yeah, I think the whole sharing his consciousness with a spirit thing was the first clue. But who wants a story filled with well-adjusted, rational characters? Give me beautifully broken ones any day.

She probably thinks Fenris is not a broken guy, althought he is since; he blames magic for everything wrong in his life. I love Anders and Fenris both on their rivalry, as they both start to realize that both need to stop their distrustful behaivors.

[Teddie Sage]

Yes. I always romance him and allow him to live since I never side with the Templars.

[Roses]

I love Anders! While I might not agree with his methods 100% I wasn't even remotely annoyed with the way he spoke, the things he said. While his behaviour made me think a few times "ugh had he been in real life this would be very awkward real soon", as a game character I think he's really well done, well written, and I support his cause. Mages are magical to me (I know it's a bad pun) and they should have no less rights than any other non-mage human being.
And, considering his backstory, he's holding quite well under the pressure without cracking. And, I love his character design. To me he's no doubt the most favorite character in Dragon Age

[Who Knows]

Even worse than selling one person to slavery is to help Meredith kill every mage in the Circle, including children in the annulment. This is what Fenris does by default on his own volition. Anders is no saint, and I do have him executed, but Fenris is worse.

[Ryriena]

Even worse than selling one person to slavery is to help Meredith kill every mage in the Circle, including children in the annulment. This is what Fenris does by default on his own volition. Anders is no saint, and I do have him executed, but Fenris is worse.

I agree hell, I would question his morality for helping Meredith for killing everyone, which includes the children, but somehow he just auto sides with me I love Fenris but I also acknowledged his faults, and love him for it. Just as much as I keep Anders alive in my games.

[Dutchess]

She probably thinks Fenris is not a broken guy, althought he is since; he blames magic for everything wrong in his life. I love Anders and Fenris both on their rivalry, as they both start to realize that both need to stop their distrustful behaivors.

 

Fenris is severely damaged, probably even broken. But he is healing and getting better, although he is unlikely to ever reach the same peace and stability as someone who has had a normal, healthy life and childhood. Anders is just getting worse and spinning out of control. So I would say that Fenris is a different kind of broken, not a hopeless cause as Anders is. I think Fenris' inability to get over his past and hatred for Danarius is more his fatal flaw than his distrust of mages. Over the course of the game he has proven that he is willing and able to work with mages in a team, even if one of them is an abomination and another a blood mage, so strong as his dislike for magic is, it does not cripple him to the extent that he is going out of his way to avoid it and steer clear of mages. What is holding him back is his fear for Danarius and the need to see him dead before he can find some peace and finally move on and start a new life. 

 

I do prefer the rivalry with Fenris because then you indeed challenge his tendency to blame the misery he is bringing on himself on magic, but I don't think Hawke encouraging him in the view that magic has done little good in the world and in his life is really destructive. Fenris will be able to live a (relatively) normal life away from magic and believing that this is a good thing. That won't harm him or mages. 

 

With Anders there's really no right way to go about it, because friendship or rivalry, he is consumed by the idea mages need to be free right now and sacrifices everything for that cause. Either he will believe merging with Justice was the right thing, or he tries to fight it but Justice overrules him. In both cases he is extremely dangerous for anyone he perceives to be not on his side (who can kill an innocent mage girl? Oh, right). 

 

 

Even worse than selling one person to slavery is to help Meredith kill every mage in the Circle, including children in the annulment. This is what Fenris does by default on his own volition. Anders is no saint, and I do have him executed, but Fenris is worse.

 

Which still doesn't change the fact that Anders is filled with glee at the thought whereas Fenris doesn't revel in his decision at all and sees no other way. But let's take a closer look at the choice Fenris is confronted with if his relationship is not maxed and Hawke sides with mages. At that point, it looks like it will be a battle to kill as many templars as possible, maybe even all of them, so that all the mages in Kirkwall can be freed. To Fenris, a place where mages are free = Tevinter. Free mages = magisters. Magisters = Danarius. Fighting for the mages here is fighting for another Tevinter Imperium. It means fighting for slavery, and sick experiments using blood magic. Unless Fenris trusts Hawke completely, he cannot do that. So by default, fighting for mages is out, yes. Now I am torn between thinking that Fenris walking away from the situation in this case would have suited his character better, and the idea that his decision to stay and fight is because he cares about the faith of the people without magic and thus he is acting out of his sense for the greater good. 

 

I do not mean to condone his decision to fight with Meredith, because the Right of Annulment was an extreme measure and should not have been called for. But I can see his reasoning for choosing the way he does. It's also a little unfair to say "oh, this is what he does by default, so by default he is a bad person" because both friendship and rivalry can convince him to side with Hawke and therefore the mages, and an unmaxed relationship score can represent lack of effort on Hawke's part to help Fenris overcome his issues. Even if he is NOT maxed, he can still be persuaded to defend the mages when Hawke forces him to consider them as slaves, rather than future magisters. This again suggests that he is reasoning from the viewpoint to oppose slavery and prevent new slavers from being created, and his initial reaction is to connect (free) mages with slavery, rather than see the mages in the Circle as oppressed and the ones to be defended.

 

Then back to Anders and his "teehee, hand him over to the evil magister!": Anders does not gain a thing when Fenris is sold back into slavery. He no longer has to see the guy who refuses to believe he is strong and worthy of admiration. Woohoo. That's it. Despite his views, up till that point Fenris has never proven to be a straight up threat to mages. He wants to see slavers dead, not mages. He argues in favor of the Circle when a decision is to be made but if Hawke decides otherwise, he will go along with it. He outright refuses to rat Merill and Anders out to the templars when Sebastian suggests it. Anders cheering on the decision to hand Fenris over is pure maliciousness, born out of spite, whereas Fenris' ultimate decision to side with the templars (again, I think this is better seen as NOT siding with the mages) stems from the idea he will prevent the rise of a second Tevinter.

[Xilizhra]

Fenris is severely damaged, probably even broken. But he is healing and getting better, although he is unlikely to ever reach the same peace and stability as someone who has had a normal, healthy life and childhood. Anders is just getting worse and spinning out of control. So I would say that Fenris is a different kind of broken, not a hopeless cause as Anders is. I think Fenris' inability to get over his past and hatred for Danarius is more his fatal flaw than his distrust of mages. Over the course of the game he has proven that he is willing and able to work with mages in a team, even if one of them is an abomination and another a blood mage, so strong as his dislike for magic is, it does not cripple him to the extent that he is going out of his way to avoid it and steer clear of mages. What is holding him back is his fear for Danarius and the need to see him dead before he can find some peace and finally move on and start a new life. 

 

I do prefer the rivalry with Fenris because then you indeed challenge his tendency to blame the misery he is bringing on himself on magic, but I don't think Hawke encouraging him in the view that magic has done little good in the world and in his life is really destructive. Fenris will be able to live a (relatively) normal life away from magic and believing that this is a good thing. That won't harm him or mages. 

 

With Anders there's really no right way to go about it, because friendship or rivalry, he is consumed by the idea mages need to be free right now and sacrifices everything for that cause. Either he will believe merging with Justice was the right thing, or he tries to fight it but Justice overrules him. In both cases he is extremely dangerous for anyone he perceives to be not on his side (who can kill an innocent mage girl? Oh, right). 

Anders recovers if you friend him and side with the mages.

 

 

Which still doesn't change the fact that Anders is filled with glee at the thought whereas Fenris doesn't revel in his decision at all and sees no other way. But let's take a closer look at the choice Fenris is confronted with if his relationship is not maxed and Hawke sides with mages. At that point, it looks like it will be a battle to kill as many templars as possible, maybe even all of them, so that all the mages in Kirkwall can be freed. To Fenris, a place where mages are free = Tevinter. Free mages = magisters. Magisters = Danarius. Fighting for the mages here is fighting for another Tevinter Imperium. It means fighting for slavery, and sick experiments using blood magic. Unless Fenris trusts Hawke completely, he cannot do that. So by default, fighting for mages is out, yes. Now I am torn between thinking that Fenris walking away from the situation in this case would have suited his character better, and the idea that his decision to stay and fight is because he cares about the faith of the people without magic and thus he is acting out of his sense for the greater good. 

 

I do not mean to condone his decision to fight with Meredith, because the Right of Annulment was an extreme measure and should not have been called for. But I can see his reasoning for choosing the way he does. It's also a little unfair to say "oh, this is what he does by default, so by default he is a bad person" because both friendship and rivalry can convince him to side with Hawke and therefore the mages, and an unmaxed relationship score can represent lack of effort on Hawke's part to help Fenris overcome his issues. Even if he is NOT maxed, he can still be persuaded to defend the mages when Hawke forces him to consider them as slaves, rather than future magisters. This again suggests that he is reasoning from the viewpoint to oppose slavery and prevent new slavers from being created, and his initial reaction is to connect (free) mages with slavery, rather than see the mages in the Circle as oppressed and the ones to be defended.

 

Then back to Anders and his "teehee, hand him over to the evil magister!": Anders does not gain a thing when Fenris is sold back into slavery. He no longer has to see the guy who refuses to believe he is strong and worthy of admiration. Woohoo. That's it. Despite his views, up till that point Fenris has never proven to be a straight up threat to mages. He wants to see slavers dead, not mages. He argues in favor of the Circle when a decision is to be made but if Hawke decides otherwise, he will go along with it. He outright refuses to rat Merill and Anders out to the templars when Sebastian suggests it. Anders cheering on the decision to hand Fenris over is pure maliciousness, born out of spite, whereas Fenris' ultimate decision to side with the templars (again, I think this is better seen as NOT siding with the mages) stems from the idea he will prevent the rise of a second Tevinter.

Fenris is not a threat to mages only as long as he's on Hawke's leash. Which he can leave in an attempt to slaughter every mage in Kirkwall unless Hawke yanks him back. Anders presumably sees this.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Even worse than selling one person to slavery is to help Meredith kill every mage in the Circle, including children in the annulment.

 

No it isn't.

[Xilizhra]

No it isn't.

Ruinously screwing one person over vs. killing hundreds...

[Iakus]

Ruinously screwing one person over vs. killing hundreds...

 

Anders bears responsibility for those hundreds as well. 

 

He personally killed a bunch just with his chantry stunt.

[Xilizhra]

Anders bears responsibility for those hundreds as well. 

 

He personally killed a bunch just with his chantry stunt.

None of which removes Fenris' culpability if he does make that choice.

 

In any case, Anders mitigates it if he fights to stop it.

[Ryriena]

Killing children for the crimes of one mage is an worst off crime than killing Elthina a leader of the ones that have opressed Mages. Fenris only gets better on the rivrly path and only if you've got at least 100% approval from him. So no he doesn't get better he willing goes along with Meredith to kill every child and adult mage in the circle if his approval is not high enough. Also your using circular logic here and ignoring the flaws in Fenris.
Anders for an example asks too die in his rivialy path, Fenris not so much if he choses to betray you for Meredith.

[Iakus]

None of which removes Fenris' culpability if he does make that choice.

 

In any case, Anders mitigates it if he fights to stop it.

Fenris can fight for the mages, both on the friendship and rivalry path.  Hawke can show him a better way.

 

Anders/Vengeance blows up a chantry (killing who knows how many innocents) and condemns dozens, if not hundreds of mages to a violent death on the point of Templar blades no mater what.

[Xilizhra]

Fenris can fight for the mages, both on the friendship and rivalry path.

If you twist his arm.

 

 

Anders/Justice blows up a chantry (killing who knows how many innocents) and condemns dozens, if not hundreds of mages to a violent death on the point of Templar blades no mater what.

By Meredith's choice, and the choice of every individual templar. If you wish to kill Anders for that, than every last templar deserves the same fate.

[Iakus]

If you twist his arm.

If you show him a better way over the last few years

 

 

By Meredith's choice.

 

Given how fast her mind was going thanks to the red lyrium, it may have come to that at some point anyway. 

 

But Meredith did not blow up the chantry.  Anders did.  Therefore it's by his choice.

[Xilizhra]

Given how fast her mind was going thanks to the red lyrium, it may have come to that at some point anyway. 

 

But Meredith did not blow up the chantry.  Anders did.  Therefore it's by his choice.

Note that I edited the previous post, to include every templar in Kirkwall who chose to participate in the Annulment. All of them are just as culpable as Anders in the Annulment; moreso, actually, as Anders doesn't even participate in it. So if that's what you condemn Anders for, you'd logically have to kill all of the templars.

[Ryriena]

Anders bears responsibility for those hundreds as well.

He personally killed a bunch just with his chantry stunt.

Iakus it still doesn't reslove Fenris responsibility if he choses to go that route, as well. The mages weren't the cause of the chantry bombing, since the man that was responsible was standing right in front of me. Fenris choses too kill everyone in the cricle, even the children if his Friendship/rivialy level isn't high enough. It's doesnt resolve his either.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ruinously screwing one person over vs. killing hundreds...

 

Except it can be argued that the Circle may be compromised by rampant corruption, and by keeping the Templars from standing between them and the city of Kirkwall, you risk letting out demons, blood-mages, and abominations (all of which are already out and about through the streets), which will kill undoubtedly kill off many innocent people (abominations leaving behind body-counts of over 50) and quite easily surpass the number of deaths in an annulment. These deaths would also include children, by the way, including mage ones.

 

The same cannot be remotely argued for selling Fenris back to Danarius.

[Xilizhra]

Except it can be argued that the Circle may be compromised by rampant corruption, and by keeping the Templars from standing between them and the city of Kirkwall, you risk letting out demons, blood-mages, and abominations (all of which are already out and about through the streets), which will kill undoubtedly kill off many innocent people (abominations leaving behind body-counts of over 50). That also includes children, by the way, including mage ones.

 

The same cannot be remotely argued for selling Fenris back to Danarius.

It cannot, however, be argued accurately or morally. Especially since the templars aren't even paying attention to the demons. If the templars possessed any ability to prioritize, they would be defending the city from those demons, not massacring its citizens.