833 réponses à ce sujet

[Ninna]

I love Anders, but before loving him I went through a rage-hate phase.

 

A rivalmanced Anders can be almost stopped from blowing things up. Who prevents that from happening? Justice. If you're friends with Anders, Justice does not feel threatened, so he won't come out and show you how tight is the grip he has on Anders. Sure, Anders will say Justice and him are one, but by the end, that's just not how it is. It's Justice who is taking the decisions. If Anders doubts, if he thinks what he's going to do is wrong, if he wants to stop, Justice will make him do it anyway. He will go as far as taking full control. Anders has feelings, but little power over the decisions taken. 

 

As a rival, you can make Anders see that. If you always support him as a friend, you're enabling his belief that he can control Justice and that things are ok. Justice won't see you as an enemy and won't clash with you that much. If you're Anders' rival romance, Justice sees you as a threat and at one point outright comes out, takes full possession of Anders and tells your Hawke to leave, tells you, being unmistakably in full control of Anders "I am Anders, Anders does not need you, leave, blah blah vengeance against the Chantry, templars". When Justice subsides, Anders has no idea what happened and admits to Hawke he's been having more and more blackouts. He does not know what he does when Justice takes full control. 

 

A rivalmanced Anders will admit he can't control Justice. He never had a chance. He made the wrong decision by allowing him into his body, but he would have never done what he did, no matter how much anger he had inside, if it weren't because Justice made him. Justice ate up Anders. Anders says he tried to stop that from happening but he could not because Justice is too strong. He knows everything is wrong. And he knows he can't stop it.

 

It's sad, but it makes sense. 

[DollyLlama]

According to Anders, they are now one being.

 
I've seen lots of people who believed that Anders and Justice are "merged," but I never look at it that way when possession is discussed. The way the lore is written, the mage has to make a choice to "accept" them. It's a lot like a contract. Either way the mage is selling themselves short, unless there's a Compassion spirit involved. But ones like Justice should be an "oh, duh" moment. As Esterula said, in a friendmance you have Justice doing a ton of speaking on Anders' behalf, as well as a heavily manipulated Anders believing he's in control. But a Fade spirit has been around for possibly several millenia. He's got the patience and willpower to bide his time and take over Anders' body.
 
 

Overall I've basically seen 7 Deadly Sins and the 7 Contrary (or heavenly) Virtues portrayed in the DA lore. Only they seem to be made manifest through the Fade.

 

@Esterula
 
What I like is that we see how a virtue can become corrupt. Justice wanted a cause to fight for because that's all Justice knows to do. He fought the baroness, fought the blight -- but now what? He sees how Anders was mistreated, and continually saw how mages were oppressed, and naturally wanted to fight that too. But all Justice has done is end things destructively. Kill the Baroness, kill the Mother/Architect, kill darkspawn. I guess his only belief was that mages would be freed if he killed again.
 
Overall, I've shared your view on Anders and his possession. I've always held this idea that Justice was a stronger willpower and would burn through Anders. Thus, I give him both a mercy killing and a sense of balanced justice for those who were killed by executing Anders. For a game they sure give you hard choices though. Killing off the guy your Hawke loved? Ouch. For a friendmance it's worse. "I'm glad it was you." Screw you, Vengeance.
 
On a lighter note, him telling your dog that three's company is pretty funny. I kinda wish we could have gotten Anders a new cat and keep it at the Estate though. Ser Pouncemore?

[Ninna]

 Overall, I've shared your view on Anders and his possession. I've always held this idea that Justice was a stronger willpower and would burn through Anders. Thus, I give him both a mercy killing and a sense of balanced justice for those who were killed by executing Anders. For a game they sure give you hard choices though. Killing off the guy your Hawke loved? Ouch. For a friendmance it's worse. "I'm glad it was you." Screw you, Vengeance.

Totally, it hurts much more when in a friendmance. My rage-hate phase was because at first, I romanced him as a friend. Only later did I understand what was going on (with the rivalmance). Hawke gets much less information in the friendship path...
 

 

 On a lighter note, him telling your dog that three's company is pretty funny. I kinda wish we could have gotten Anders a new cat and keep it at the Estate though. Ser Pouncemore?

LOL, that would have been cute 

[DollyLlama]

A little bit of OT here: I was in-game pissed at Sebastian when having that friendmance convo with Anders. He's all, "You would have supported him?!" I'm thinking, "Dude, shut the butts up. I'm trying to tell my fake boyfriend that he could have talked to me. Back your pixels off." But then later, when you're moments away from hack-n-slash with Orsino, Sebastian says, "I've never met a woman like you... I wish... nevermind, we don't have time for distractions." I'm sitting there with my hands in the air thinking, "I just stabbed my fake boyfriend in the back, and your almost hitting on me?" Head, meet desk.

 

But yes, my mind-canon has me snooping around to find a cat for Anders. I often wondered how the Mabari would act with a feline around. Dagnabit. Now I want to see adorable cat/dog moments. Headdesk, headdesk, headdesk.

[TheEnigmousPretentiator]

I like Anders. He did not shut up about his people's plight to make outsiders feel better about their complacency and worked against the forces who sought keep him chained, and I support his destruction of the Chantry and would have helped had the choice been available.

[Natureguy85]

 
I've seen lots of people who believed that Anders and Justice are "merged," but I never look at it that way when possession is discussed. The way the lore is written, the mage has to make a choice to "accept" them. It's a lot like a contract. Either way the mage is selling themselves short, unless there's a Compassion spirit involved. But ones like Justice should be an "oh, duh" moment. As Esterula said, in a friendmance you have Justice doing a ton of speaking on Anders' behalf, as well as a heavily manipulated Anders believing he's in control. But a Fade spirit has been around for possibly several millenia. He's got the patience and willpower to bide his time and take over Anders' body.

 

All of that would make sense but it's not what we are told. Anders specifically says explicitly that he and Justice have merged and are now one. Also, even if you want to still separate them, referring to Anders when he is normal, then the other form is Vengeance. Either way, Justice is gone.

[FemShem]

I think the Anders character was well-developed in someways.  For reason in early playthroughs I never got to know the Grand Cleric, after my Hawke's did know her...I had a hard time with him blowing up the chantry.  The only male Hawke I made I tried the romance...I had a hard time with the believability of it.  IDK if it's better with F/Hawke (I just love Isabela romance) or the occasional Merrill.  I hate to waste her on the boys.

His dark brooding nature falls a bit short, because he's insane...probably adding a dash of crazy from Justice.  I do really like his Justice side, no question where he stands.

[DollyLlama]

All of that would make sense but it's not what we are told. Anders specifically says explicitly that he and Justice have merged and are now one. Also, even if you want to still separate them, referring to Anders when he is normal, then the other form is Vengeance. Either way, Justice is gone.

Friendmance, yes you're told they're "one." Justice/Vengeance would say that. In a Rivalmance, Anders frequently draws the line between the two. It's two spirits in one body. That's what's presented. Justice isn't gone. The Fade spirits are, in "ancient" lore, described as the First children of the Maker. Whether that's true or not, we do know they and the Fade came before Thedas. The 7 Deadly Sins demons are more than likely the spirits who envied the mortals of Thedas. The 7 Contrary Virtues spirits are probably those who felt they should assist the mortals. With that said, I don't see the Fade spirits as 2 different creations, but one race, if you will. As such, Justice became a corrupted spirit. His being is the same, but you'd give him a new name with his new personality.

 

If we all only went by what we're told, we'd all be pretty naive people. As Esterula said, Friendmanced Anders will believe he can handle it. How many friends in real life have we met who think they can handle a stressful situation, when in reality they're failing horribly? In a good story, there's always plenty between the lines. Even in a Friendmance, if you play Legacy, you still see the real struggle that Anders is going through. If you have him in party, Ven-Justice surfaces and turns on you for a moment.

 

 

 

I think the Anders character was well-developed in someways.  For reason in early playthroughs I never got to know the Grand Cleric, after my Hawke's did know her...I had a hard time with him blowing up the chantry.  The only male Hawke I made I tried the romance...I had a hard time with the believability of it.  IDK if it's better with F/Hawke (I just love Isabela romance) or the occasional Merrill.  I hate to waste her on the boys.

His dark brooding nature falls a bit short, because he's insane...probably adding a dash of crazy from Justice.  I do really like his Justice side, no question where he stands.

 

Isabella rubs me the wrong way (ugh, she'd take that wrong too) so I haven't used her in a party that often. I'm usually a rogue so having a clone of my Hawke is redundant. I'm not sure Anders was written for a male Hawke. I've read Fenris was written more so for male Hawke than fem Hawke. But I think Fenris was believable in both. Anders' romance writing felt more like the type who'd fall for a woman who strongly believes she can help him. But I took my favorite Hawke aside and had some heart to heart. She knows better now.

[Natureguy85]

Friendmance, yes you're told they're "one." Justice/Vengeance would say that. In a Rivalmance, Anders frequently draws the line between the two. It's two spirits in one body. That's what's presented. Justice isn't gone. The Fade spirits are, in "ancient" lore, described as the First children of the Maker. Whether that's true or not, we do know they and the Fade came before Thedas. The 7 Deadly Sins demons are more than likely the spirits who envied the mortals of Thedas. The 7 Contrary Virtues spirits are probably those who felt they should assist the mortals. With that said, I don't see the Fade spirits as 2 different creations, but one race, if you will. As such, Justice became a corrupted spirit. His being is the same, but you'd give him a new name with his new personality.

 

If we all only went by what we're told, we'd all be pretty naive people. As Esterula said, Friendmanced Anders will believe he can handle it. How many friends in real life have we met who think they can handle a stressful situation, when in reality they're failing horribly? In a good story, there's always plenty between the lines. Even in a Friendmance, if you play Legacy, you still see the real struggle that Anders is going through. If you have him in party, Ven-Justice surfaces and turns on you for a moment.

 

If we invent the narrative then we're just pulling things out of our ass. In the scene after dealing with Karl, Anders says Justice is gone and is now part of him. No scholar could tell you where one ends and the other begins.

 

Justice becoming Vengeance isn't just a name change. It reflects a change to his fundamental character. Anders says "He is no longer my friend justice;..."

 

As far as Spirits and Demons, yes, they are fundamentally two different types of the same "species". Not only do the follow after virtues or vices respectively, but the most important difference is that Spirits are not really interested in the mortal realm where as demons long to interact with it.

[Sah291]

Sebastian says, "I've never met a woman like you... I wish... nevermind, we don't have time for distractions." I'm sitting there with my hands in the air thinking, "I just stabbed my fake boyfriend in the back, and your almost hitting on me?" Head, meet desk.

 

I guess Hawke is just that irresistible? I mean, Sebastian is only romanceable by a female Hawke, but he still comes off sort of jealous sounding no matter what, even to male Hawke. In that last friendship scene where he complains about Anders (if you are romancing him), and says something like "he'll never put you above his own needs". I was like....wait, what? And then the whole "precious Anders" line at the end if you don't kill him. I forget what he says on rivalry. Merrill nearly confesses too at the end, if left romanced. 

 

Anyways, my opinion on Anders/Justice being merged as "one". I think that they are, and he's in denial about it for pretty much most of the game...on both friendship and rivalry. Hence all the fireworks. But I think it's easier to just look at it as allegory. Vengeance and justice are intertwined concepts, and all the greatest scholars have been trying to tell them apart for ages. Same with Merrill's pride demon.... that's another one. Is pride a virtue or a vice?

[duckley]

Sorry - I usually have some compassion, but after listening to all his whining and now the "devil made me do it" excuse, I don't have much sympathy. He made a really bad decision and whoever died as the ultimate result of that choice, is paying for it.

[DollyLlama]

I guess Hawke is just that irresistible? I mean, Sebastian is only romanceable by a female Hawke, but he still comes off sort of jealous sounding no matter what, even to male Hawke. In that last friendship scene where he complains about Anders (if you are romancing him), and says something like "he'll never put you above his own needs". I was like....wait, what? And then the whole "precious Anders" line at the end if you don't kill him. I forget what he says on rivalry. Merrill nearly confesses too at the end, if left romanced. 

 

Anyways, my opinion on Anders/Justice being merged as "one". I think that they are, and he's in denial about it for pretty much most of the game...on both friendship and rivalry. Hence all the fireworks. But I think it's easier to just look at it as allegory. Vengeance and justice are intertwined concepts, and all the greatest scholars have been trying to tell them apart for ages. Same with Merrill's pride demon.... that's another one. Is pride a virtue or a vice?

Haha, well Anders acts super jealous if you turn him down. I think Anders falls hard for Hawke at some point. But yes, Seb sure acts like he's got the hots for Hawke. We never really know if he "hops borders" like Zevran, after all. Just because he's really into chantry doesn't mean he hadn't swung both ways. Que the fan girls.

 

Vengeance is one of those subjects, but I've only ever seen negative connotations because humans are faulty creatures at heart. No one is perfect. I see unchecked Justice as something that turns into blind, rage-worthy vengeance. Which is what we see in the game. No one person can deal out balanced justice. It takes many perspectives to get a real result.

 

But with Anders & Justice, I do see two clear personalities. They're in one body and share one mind. It isn't like the Gaa'uld in Stargate. I see it more like how Supernatural portrays possession. You have two spirits floating around inside playing musical chairs. Spirits still need permission. Perhaps the merger actually refers to inhabiting one body? Maybe Anders is accepting Justice as part of him because they'd shared one body for so long.

 

Merrill was never possessed, though. She learned forbidden magic, to cut herself properly I guess (snerk), but never got all personal with one. Pride is a sin, not virtue. But for funsies, here's a list:

 

7 Deadly Sins: pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed, and sloth.

7 Contrary Virtues: chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience, kindness, and humility.

 

Ironically, Sebastian has a bow called Temperance. Apparently he felt the need to abstinate from his old life so much that he wanted to remind himself of that daily.

[Sah291]

Yeah, it comes off like Anders always falls for Hawke, unrequited or not. I wonder if it is because the writers were trying to steer us to romance him at least once, to make the ending more dramatic. But Hawke just seems to be a chick/dude magnet no matter what. 

 

Oh I do think he has two distinct personalities. But I think it's just in the sense of two sides of the same coin, and so they are tightly intertwined. Anders is compassionate and a healer, but he is also punishing. I don't think the idea of vengeance is thought to have any positive aspects today. But I think the concept has shown up throughout history as the idea of karma and reaping what you sow, as a kind of uncontrollable and inescapable force of nature. That's what he is.

 

I've never seen Supernatural so I can't compare to how possession works there. But it just seems very metaphorical to me... there's a lot of double speak in his dialogue. I know his writer is often dumped on by fans for ruining his character, but I think she did a good job and it is a bit underrated. 

[BumminDork]

I think Anders was a great companion, to be honest he felt more realistic than any of the other companions in DA2, crazy but realistic. My first play through I still liked him but playing it after that, he did appear to just whine and all he could talk about was freedom for the mages. So I guess I don't hate him but I usually don't add him to my party as much unless I don't have another mage that I can look too. 

[Natureguy85]

Yeah, it comes off like Anders always falls for Hawke, unrequited or not. I wonder if it is because the writers were trying to steer us to romance him at least once, to make the ending more dramatic. But Hawke just seems to be a chick/dude magnet no matter what. 

 

Does any other character approach you romantically with no romance dialogue from you?

[Sah291]

Does any other character approach you romantically with no romance dialogue from you?

Well Isabela will flirt first. But that's another one, the end of act 2 is more dramatic if you are romancing her.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Yes.

[X Equestris]

I like Anders. He did not shut up about his people's plight to make outsiders feel better about their complacency and worked against the forces who sought keep him chained, and I support his destruction of the Chantry and would have helped had the choice been available.

So you're cool with killing hundreds of people with no connection to your actual goal?

[Lulupab]

So you're cool with killing hundreds of people with no connection to your actual goal?

 
Not really. We are not the ones killing people. Anders is a product of chantry, no mage suffered more than Anders at the hands of Templars and Chantry. If you hate someone like that, they eventually explode in your face, quite literally in Anders' case.

 

DA:I spoilers:

Spoiler

In all endings of DA:I the lives of mages get better, whether in circles or elsewhere. Its simply the scale of "better" which is different in these endings. But you can even disband the Templars. Anders' actions can have a role in disbanding the Templar order for good.

 

Also I feel obligated to post this again in this thread. This video is the best fanmade video for Anders and his romance with F!Hakwe. The song chosen is perfect, the scenes chosen to supply the lyrics is even more perfect. I've befriended the author since then.

 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Not really. We are not the ones killing people. Anders is a product of chantry, no mage suffered more than Anders at the hands of Templars and Chantry. If you hate someone like that, they eventually explode in your face, quite literally in Anders' case.

 

Anders suffered less than some other mages did, and he ultimately has only himself to blame for it.

 

Besides which, Anders' actions outside the Circle only prove that the Templars should have punished him more harshly (i.e. - death)!

 

DA:I spoilers:

Spoiler

In all endings of DA:I the lives of mages get better, whether in circles or elsewhere. Its simply the scale of "better" which is different in these endings. But you can even disband the Templars. Anders' actions can have a role in disbanding the Templar order for good.

 

Anders really does not deserve any credit for how things unfold in DA:I, because what effects his actions had are entirely divorced from what he believed he was doing.

 

Spoiler

Anders' POV: The Circle was an atrocity that he was spurring mages to rise up against.

Most mages' POV: The Circle was overall acceptable until further restrictions were imposed (in response to what Anders did in Kirkwall), and this new living condition within the Circle (courtesy Anders) is what the mages actually rebelled against... talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Lulupab]

Anders suffered less than some other mages did, and he ultimately has only himself to blame for it.
 
Besides which, Anders' actions outside the Circle only prove that the Templars should have punished him more harshly (i.e. - death)!

 
Really? Do you think Anders would have done what he did if he was free from the beginning? You know he wouldn't. He was clearly one of the good guys before the whole mess. Besides name one mage who suffered more than Anders. Death =/= Suffering. 
 

Anders really does not deserve any credit for how things unfold in DA:I, because what effects his actions had are entirely divorced from what he believed he was doing.
 

Spoiler

Anders' POV: The Circle was an atrocity that he was spurring mages to rise up against.
Most mages' POV: The Circle was overall acceptable until further restrictions were imposed (in response to what Anders did in Kirkwall), and this new living condition within the Circle (courtesy Anders) is what the mages actually rebelled against... talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That was't Anders' actual POV. or simply not the only one. The circle is just a name, what irked him the most was tranquility and literally everyone on DA:I agrees its an evil thing to do, even Cassandra.

 

The Seekers were corrupt to their very core lasting almost a thousand year. So yes, the system needed to be overthrown so that things would surface. You can give credit to whomever you like. Role =/= credit. Anders played a role.

 

Plus if you read the codex, mages rebelled at the end when the cure of tranquility was denied by the seekers and the Anders thing. But don't forget mages rebelled because what's stopping them from getting more restriction later when another mage does something like Anders? Should they answer for crimes of a single apostate? NO. So you see how mages saw the systematical abuse and injustice therefore they rebelled. In fact if Hawke romances Anders and doesn't break it until the end of DA2, Hawke's codex changes, indicating Hawke and Anders visited many circles and helped the mags rebel I.E by killing templars and they are greeted by mages there.

[MisterJB]

 
Not really. We are not the ones killing people. Anders is a product of chantry, no mage suffered more than Anders at the hands of Templars and Chantry. If you hate someone like that, they eventually explode in your face, quite literally in Anders' case.

The person placing the bombs with the intent to kill people is not the one killing people?

 

If we follow your logic, then non-mages aren't the ones hurting the mages because they suffered immesurably at the hands of Tevinter.

If you opress someone like that, they eventually fight back and do what it takes to prevent it from happening again.

[Sah291]

The person placing the bombs with the intent to kill people is not the one killing people?
 
If we follow your logic, then non-mages aren't the ones hurting the mages because they suffered immesurably at the hands of Tevinter.
If you opress someone like that, they eventually fight back and do what it takes to prevent it from happening again.

Yeah, but that was the moral of the story wasn't it? The whole cycle of violence. The once oppressed and enslaved Andrastians who fought for their freedom becoming the thing they fought so hard against. Anders breaks his principles and becomes a monster fighting for justice. Hawke can become one too, I think, the more he/she becomes obsessed with protecting people, up to and including using blood magic as a mage, or slaughtering the circle on the pro Templar side.

I think what is so frustrating about the ending is how all the characters are all so strubborn, while it's obvious to the player how the whole mess could have been avoided or resolved peacefully if only people had just acted rationally, or learned to listen to one another.

[MisterJB]

Yeah, but that was the moral of the story wasn't it? The whole cycle of violence. The once oppressed and enslaved Andrastians who fought for their freedom becoming the thing they fought so hard against.

You can see it that way, if you want.

Personally, I disagree. I'd say there is a difference between system of laws and boundaries created for the sake of protecting millions of people from very tangible danger and opressing millions for the vanity of a couple thousands Magisters.

 

Another interpretation I favor is that life is simply a constant struggle and you'd better do whatever it takes to be the top dog because no one else will hesitate.