833 réponses à ce sujet

[X Equestris]

Not really. We are not the ones killing people. Anders is a product of chantry, no mage suffered more than Anders at the hands of Templars and Chantry. If you hate someone like that, they eventually explode in your face, quite literally in Anders' case.
 
DA:I spoilers:

Spoiler

In all endings of DA:I the lives of mages get better, whether in circles or elsewhere. Its simply the scale of "better" which is different in these endings. But you can even disband the Templars. Anders' actions can have a role in disbanding the Templar order for good.

 
Also I feel obligated to post this again in this thread. This video is the best fanmade video for Anders and his romance with F!Hakwe. The song chosen is perfect, the scenes chosen to supply the lyrics is even more perfect. I've befriended the author since then.
 

The person I was responding to said that they would have helped Anders if given the opportunity. They would have played the Terry Nichols to Anders' Timothy McVeigh. They would have aided in a terrorist attack that murdered hundreds of people who had never done anything to mages. And that's supposed to help mages how, exactly? Anders intentionally got the mages in the Kirkwall Circle killed, even ones who never wanted a rebellion against the Chantry, all to further his revolution.

[Lulupab]

The person placing the bombs with the intent to kill people is not the one killing people?

 

If we follow your logic, then non-mages aren't the ones hurting the mages because they suffered immesurably at the hands of Tevinter.

If you opress someone like that, they eventually fight back and do what it takes to prevent it from happening again.

 

What do you mean? Anders does it, not Hawke. Hawke only gets to choose if he dies for it or not.

 

Also Tevinter =/= southern mages. In fact Tevinter oppressed southern mages like the none-mages. Nationality always takes priority when it comes to Tevinter, so much as a non- mage Tevinter citizen is valued more than a none-citizen mage from outside Tevinter.

 

And you damn well the southern mages are not going to create another Tevinter. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Lulupab]

The person I was responding to said that they would have helped Anders if given the opportunity. They would have played the Terry Nichols to Anders' Timothy McVeigh. They would have aided in a terrorist attack that murdered hundreds of people who had never done anything to mages. And that's supposed to help mages how, exactly? Anders intentionally got the mages in the Kirkwall Circle killed, even ones who never wanted a rebellion against the Chantry, all to further his revolution.

 

Define "help". Who was helping mages? Lambert the leader of circle system was actually one of the most corrupt people in Thedas, just like all lord seekers before him. So Anders helped mages as much as V helped in the movie "V for Vendetta" when he blow up the government building.

 

Violence usually doesn't solve problems but the circle system is a semi-totalitarian system. The mages can only have a say in their own lives if their allowed to. For example Lambert can disband the college of enchanters in mere seconds. Its like disbanding the senate, which no single person should have power to do it. Totalitarianism can only be challenged with violence because all ways leading to peaceful changes are either blocked or pre-planned to not work by ways such as manipulating mages for almost a thousand year that cure for tranquility doesn't exist.

 

So to answer your question, no there was no peaceful way to overthrow the seekers who have been corrupt since their very existence.

[X Equestris]

Define "help". Who was helping mages? Lambert the leader of circle system was actually one of the most corrupt people in Thedas, just like all lord seekers before him. So Anders helped mages as much as V helped in the movie "V for Vendetta" when he blow up the government building.
 
Violence usually doesn't solve problems but the circle system is a semi-totalitarian system. The mages can only have a say in their own lives if their allowed to. For example Lambert can disband the college of enchanters in mere seconds. Its like disbanding the senate, which no single person should have power to do it. Totalitarianism can only be challenged with violence because all ways leading to peaceful changes are either blocked or pre-planned to not work by ways such as manipulating mages for almost a thousand year that cure for tranquility doesn't exist.
 
So to answer your question, no there was no peaceful way to overthrow the seekers who have been corrupt since their very existence.

I never asked if there was a peaceful way or not. But even if there isn't, you don't have to murder hundreds of people and through members of your own group under the bus for very little gain. Doing so just alienates more of the population, which the mages really don't need, since they probably number one percent or less of Thedas' population. A large number of mages don't even want violent revolution.

[Sah291]

You can see it that way, if you want.
Personally, I disagree. I'd say there is a difference between system of laws and boundaries created for the sake of protecting millions of people from very tangible danger and opressing millions for the vanity of a couple thousands Magisters.

From Anders' POV I think he did favor a system of laws and boundaries, that all would be equal under. He tells Aveline that. He wasn't even immediately for complete abolition of the circle at first... But he thought that system was corrupt with the way the Templars/Chantry were setting themselves above the law.
 

Another interpretation I favor is that life is simply a constant struggle and you'd better do whatever it takes to be the top dog because no one else will hesitate.

That's another interpretation, but not one I think the narrative favors, considering the way that Hawke is ultimately punished for winning this way in the end.

[Lulupab]

I never asked if there was a peaceful way or not. But even if there isn't, you don't have to murder hundreds of people and through members of your own group under the bus for very little gain. Doing so just alienates more of the population, which the mages really don't need, since they probably number one percent or less of Thedas' population. A large number of mages don't even want violent revolution.

 

I'm not really advocating murder, only pointing out the inevitability of tensions rising to their limits. If not Anders, someone else would have done something like that.

 

But events like that provides opportunity for change, actual peaceful change. Now everyone knows Templars are no saint and can betray and kill like any mage or criminal. Therefore in all endings:

Spoiler

Mages get better lives, whether inside the circles or college. The chantry reforms also happen with all endings. But on the other hand you can go to the limit of disbanding the Templars.

So regardless of what transpired and who did it, mages get better lives. I won't be the judge of the fact that if it was worth it or not, but the outcome is undeniably good.

[MisterJB]

What do you mean? Anders does it, not Hawke. Hawke only gets to choose if he dies for it or not.

 

Also Tevinter =/= southern mages. In fact Tevinter oppressed southern mages like the none-mages. Nationality always takes priority when it comes to Tevinter, so much as a non- mage Tevinter citizen is valued more than a none-citizen mage from outside Tevinter.

 

And you damn well the southern mages are not going to create another Tevinter. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

If "Anders is a product of the Chantry", then the Chantry is a product of Tevinter. And if Anders isn't to blame because of "opression", then the non-mages aren't to blame because they were opressed by mages.

 

If you wish to change your argument into "Souther Mages are not Tevinter", then the hundreds of Kirkwall Citizens who died are not the Chantry.

 

And no, I do not know that. Southern Mages recreating Tevinter is a very real possibility. In fact, without the Circle, it's inevitable.

[Lulupab]

If "Anders is a product of the Chantry", then the Chantry is a product of Tevinter. And if Anders isn't to blame because of "opression", then the non-mages aren't to blame because they were opressed by mages.

 

If you wish to change your argument into "Souther Mages are not Tevinter", then the hundreds of Kirkwall Citizens who died are not the Chantry.

 

And no, I do not know that. Southern Mages recreating Tevinter is a very real possibility. In fact, without the Circle, it's inevitable.

 

Tevinter is a government, the chantry is an idea. Abusing the latter is so much easier I.E Andraste did not create the circles, the seekers did aka a corrupt order which can easily be compared to ancient Tevinter in this aspect. But the old circle system is gone as all endings result in better circles or no circles at all. So the fact that mages were wronged for almost thousand years by the hand of seekers and their puppets is pretty much canon.

 

The Tevinter government oppressed the south regardless of their magical abilities. I'm not changing my argument since it was my argument from the beginning, An Orlesian mage is Orlesian first, mage second.

 

Possibility? Possibly. The chance of it actually happening? Very unlikely. The mages know its a battle they cannot win, also as I said Tevinter is not exactly heaven for mages. Arguably some mages in the south have better lives than Laetan mages in Tevinter. So no, I VEHEMENTLY disagree with south turning to Tevinter, its paranoid and baseless.

[Natureguy85]

Yeah, but that was the moral of the story wasn't it? The whole cycle of violence. The once oppressed and enslaved Andrastians who fought for their freedom becoming the thing they fought so hard against. Anders breaks his principles and becomes a monster fighting for justice. Hawke can become one too, I think, the more he/she becomes obsessed with protecting people, up to and including using blood magic as a mage, or slaughtering the circle on the pro Templar side.

I think what is so frustrating about the ending is how all the characters are all so strubborn, while it's obvious to the player how the whole mess could have been avoided or resolved peacefully if only people had just acted rationally, or learned to listen to one another.

 

What you're saying is true of the side characters. It would have been really cool as the main story if Hawke was a real Protagonist and not just a piece of drift wood floating down the Plot River.

 

You can see it that way, if you want.

Personally, I disagree. I'd say there is a difference between system of laws and boundaries created for the sake of protecting millions of people from very tangible danger and opressing millions for the vanity of a couple thousands Magisters.

 

Another interpretation I favor is that life is simply a constant struggle and you'd better do whatever it takes to be the top dog because no one else will hesitate.

 

While the ultimately ruined it with the ending, the latter of your comparison is what Dragon Age 2 was trying to set up. They showed that the Templars had legitimate concerns about all the blood mages in the Kirkwall Circle, but showed Meredith was overzealous and paranoid in her response and that he Templars were corrupt and abusive in other ways. i give them credit for the attempt, but they ruined it by having Orsino use blood magic to literally become a monster and have Meredith go completely insane from the Red Lyrium. Had it just been subtly fueling her paranoia, it could have worked.

[TheEnigmousPretentiator]

So you're cool with killing hundreds of people with no connection to your actual goal?

"Cool with"?

Anyway, if this is an inquiry in whether I would revel in bloodshed, no, although my chest would not flush at the death of the inert. The deaths of noncombatants - even the inert - should always be limited as much as possible lest establishing rule and/or restoring order prove more troublesome than the battles. In short, it is a matter of accepting death as inevitable in a conflict long primed for eruption and being able to live with the consequences of using my power to help those I most value.

Edit:

Did Circle mages throughout Thedas declaring their independence following the actions of this imagined lone wolf churn in your mind as you posted your comment - the one with the glib comparison?

To Sah291

"I think what is so frustrating about the ending is how all the characters are all so strubborn, while it's obvious to the player how the whole mess could have been avoided or resolved peacefully if only people had just acted rationally, or learned to listen to one another."

You want it to be one way.

Meredith, without the red lyrium sword, was nutty to begin with; do not leave out the number of mages who wanted to flee Kirkwall some years before she went all mad. Mages turning to blood magic in an act of self-defense where little was to be found amongst those bystanders did not help. The tensions with the Qunari did not help quail the mess that was Kirkwall either and it would have - realistically - increased the belief in that Chantry nonsense. You think mages would have been unaffected by that?

People like to believe there is always another way, especially from the mound of hindsight, resist the notion that cause and effect can take on a life separate from them. It makes them feel weak and the world more scary and they want to feel strong, but it's the other way.

[X Equestris]

"Cool with"?
Anyway, if this is an inquiry in whether I would revel in bloodshed, no, although my chest would not flush at the death of the inert. The deaths of noncombatants - even the inert - should always be limited as much as possible lest establishing rule and/or restoring order prove more troublesome than the battles. In short, it is a matter of accepting death as inevitable in a conflict long primed for eruption and being able to live with the consequences of using my power to help those I most value.
Edit:
Did Circle mages throughout Thedas declaring their independence following the actions of this imagined lone wolf churn in your mind as you posted your comment - the one with the glib comparison?
To Sah291
"I think what is so frustrating about the ending is how all the characters are all so strubborn, while it's obvious to the player how the whole mess could have been avoided or resolved peacefully if only people had just acted rationally, or learned to listen to one another."
You want it to be one way.
Meredith, without the red lyrium sword, was nutty to begin with; do not leave out the number of mages who wanted to flee Kirkwall some years before she went all mad. Mages turning to blood magic in an act of self-defense where little was to be found amongst those bystanders did not help. The tensions with the Qunari did not help quail the mess that was Kirkwall either and it would have - realistically - increased the belief in that Chantry nonsense. You think mages would have been unaffected by that?
People like to believe there is always another way, especially from the mound of hindsight, resist the notion that cause and effect can take on a life separate from them. It makes them feel weak and the world more scary and they want to feel strong, but it's the other way.

You realize every mage who isn't a Resolutionist hates Anders, right? And they don't do anything immediately following what happens in Kirkwall. Independence is only declared after Lambert shuts them down, which is quite a while later. Further, despite the outcome of that vote, a large number of mages have no desire to fight for independence. You know how many people Fiona has left by the time of the Mage quest in Inquisition? A few hundred. Maybe less than the number of people killed in Anders' terrorist attack. Many mages remained loyal to the Chantry, or their Circles stayed neutral, or they went their own separate way because they didn't want to fight. That's how popular the idea of waging a violent revolution is amongst the mages.

[Lulupab]

You realize every mage who isn't a Resolutionist hates Anders, right? And they don't do anything immediately following what happens in Kirkwall. Independence is only declared after Lambert shuts them down, which is quite a while later. Further, despite the outcome of that vote, a large number of mages have no desire to fight for independence. You know how many people Fiona has left by the time of the Mage quest in Inquisition? A few hundred. Maybe less than the number of people killed in Anders' terrorist attack. Many mages remained loyal to the Chantry, or their Circles stayed neutral, or they went their own separate way because they didn't want to fight. That's how popular the idea of waging a violent revolution is amongst the mages.

 

There are many hints that majority of mages eventually joined Fiona. You could argue they joined later because no one accepted them, but this alone is an issue.

Spoiler

 

Also did you expect something to happen immediately? Given the fact that the fastest communication in Thedas is ravens? Mages are a minority and "Hundreds" is a pretty big number for them. Plus don't forget that all 15 circles rebelled and only one of them failed to break free.

 

Libertarians were gaining followers fast and were about to become the most popular fraternity among mages while Loyalists were on a rapid decline. 

[X Equestris]

There are many hints that majority of mages eventually joined Fiona. You could argue they joined later because no one accepted them, but this alone is an issue.

Spoiler

 
Also did you expect something to happen immediately? Given the fact that the fastest communication in Thedas is ravens? Mages are a minority and "Hundreds" is a pretty big number for them. Plus don't forget that all 15 circles rebelled and only one of them failed to break free.
 
Libertarians were gaining followers fast and were about to become the most popular fraternity among mages while Loyalists were on a rapid decline.

The screenshot is talking about the vote, which was barely democratic, and saw a former Libertarian vote on behalf of the Aequitarians. Did you miss out on those war table missions involving neutral circles? There was one in the Free Marches, and the one in Cumberland. And Ostwick tried to remain neutral until a radical killed the First Enchanter.

As for the immediacy, the person I was replying to seemed to think that as soon as they heard about Anders blowing up the Chanry, the Circles declared independence. I was correcting that notion.

The point about mage numbers is an interesting one. If Fiona's people represent the majority of all of the former Circle mages still alive, then mages are an incredibly small minority. Absolutely miniscule. And yet people seem to think it's a good idea to start a bloody war that kills and displaces thousands, not to mention further prejudicing the population against mages. I support mage freedom, but that is utterly insane. If, on the other hand, Fiona's people don't represent anything close to the majority, then it proves that violent overthrow of the Circle system is not a popular idea amongst Circle mages.

[Lulupab]

The screenshot is talking about the vote, which was barely democratic, and saw a former Libertarian vote on behalf of the Aequitarians. Did you miss out on those war table missions involving neutral circles? There was one in the Free Marches, and the one in Cumberland. And Ostwick tried to remain neutral until a radical killed the First Enchanter.

As for the immediacy, the person I was replying to seemed to think that as soon as they heard about Anders blowing up the Chanry, the Circles declared independence. I was correcting that notion.

The point about mage numbers is an interesting one. If Fiona's people represent the majority of all of the former Circle mages still alive, then mages are an incredibly small minority. Absolutely miniscule. And yet people seem to think it's a good idea to start a bloody war that kills and displaces thousands, not to mention further prejudicing the population against mages. I support mage freedom, but that is utterly insane. If, on the other hand, Fiona's people don't represent anything close to the majority, then it proves that violent overthrow of the Circle system is not a popular idea amongst Circle mages.

 

Libertarians rebelled and most Aequitarians joined them because no one would accept them. That leaves Loyalists and some mages from other fraternities who didn't join the rebels. Some tried to remain neutral but were forced to choose a side, but you can see how its beneficial to choose your fellow mages over chantry apologists who will blame you for everything and get away with it.

 

As for numbers, if we compare it to old times in real life, not really. The population was quite lower in those times and generally only some nobles had families without death. Not to mention not every man can fight but every mage can cast spells. Also there will always be mage supporters among none-mages, mercenaries, sellswords etc.. Tevinter has repelled every single exalted march against it and there have been a lot of them. Tevinter versus rest of nations, defended itself successfully. Minrathous is the oldest city in Thedas and center of all magic and it has never fallen. Darkspawn, Qunari, men and gods have tried but all have failed.

 

Still mages had a disadvantage in numbers, but it was in no way impossible to win. Strategically mages have huge advantage if they manage to keep their distance. Even the Templars need to get close to mages to actually do anything. So having an army of soldiers between you and enemy or being on the walls of a fortress is a huge advantage for mages and both of these reasons is probably why Tevinter repelled exalted marches like there is no tomorrow as it always had the number disadvantage but still prevailed.

[Sah291]

To Sah291

"I think what is so frustrating about the ending is how all the characters are all so strubborn, while it's obvious to the player how the whole mess could have been avoided or resolved peacefully if only people had just acted rationally, or learned to listen to one another."

You want it to be one way.

Meredith, without the red lyrium sword, was nutty to begin with; do not leave out the number of mages who wanted to flee Kirkwall some years before she went all mad. Mages turning to blood magic in an act of self-defense where little was to be found amongst those bystanders did not help. The tensions with the Qunari did not help quail the mess that was Kirkwall either and it would have - realistically - increased the belief in that Chantry nonsense. You think mages would have been unaffected by that?

People like to believe there is always another way, especially from the mound of hindsight, resist the notion that cause and effect can take on a life separate from them. It makes them feel weak and the world more scary and they want to feel strong, but it's the other way.

 

There's no way things were going to be resolved peacefully by that point. It was too late, things had been escalating out of control for so long. But people always have choices. Things don't always have to escalate to war. Elthina may not have had much power to change things on her own, but she could have spoken out long before Meredith was reaching a boiling point. 

 

My point was just that it's easy to see what could have been, from the perspective of the player. We are looking at the situation objectively, and can analyze it logically. We can see both sides. But most people don't see the world that way until it's too late. But I think that's the power of a story like this, don't you think? 

[X Equestris]

Libertarians rebelled and most Aequitarians joined them because no one would accept them. That leaves Loyalists and some mages from other fraternities who didn't join the rebels. Some tried to remain neutral but were forced to choose a side, but you can see how its beneficial to choose your fellow mages over chantry apologists who will blame you for everything and get away with it.

As for numbers, if we compare it to old times in real life, not really. The population was quite lower in those times and generally only some nobles had families without death. Not to mention not every man can fight but every mage can cast spells. Also there will always be mage supporters among none-mages, mercenaries, sellswords etc.. Tevinter has repelled every single exalted march against it and there have been a lot of them. Tevinter versus rest of nations, defended itself successfully. Minrathous is the oldest city in Thedas and center of all magic and it has never fallen. Darkspawn, Qunari, men and gods have tried but all have failed.

Still mages had a disadvantage in numbers, but it was in no way impossible to win. Strategically mages have huge advantage if they manage to keep their distance. Even the Templars need to get close to mages to actually do anything. So having an army of soldiers between you and enemy or being on the walls of a fortress is a huge advantage for mages and both of these reasons is probably why Tevinter repelled exalted marches like there is no tomorrow as it always had the number disadvantage but still prevailed.

Tevinter also had the benefit of powerful mundane armies under its mages' commands, unified by a shared culture. There's no comparison between them and a mage rebellion that by the time of In Hushed Whispers amounts to a few hundred.

Also, let me note that in the lore, most mages can barely cast a few spells. This further cuts into the number of combat capable mages.

As for population, we know that Ferelden had a population of one million in 9:30. Orlais had four million. That's not even touching the other countries. Even if we're strict with the percent of people who are mages, let's say 0.1%, you'd get 1,000 mages in Ferelden alone. Four thousand in Orlais. And again, that's without touching the other countries. Even with infant mortality rates, which appear to be much lower in Thedas than in the real life Middle Ages, that's a lot of mages. And yet some people think it's a good idea for this minority group to start a bloody revolution when they're already hated and feared, not to mention that they're still split along internal factional lines,

[Lulupab]

Tevinter also had the benefit of powerful mundane armies under its mages' commands, unified by a shared culture. There's no comparison between them and a mage rebellion that by the time of In Hushed Whispers amounts to a few hundred.

Also, let me note that in the lore, most mages can barely cast a few spells. This further cuts into the number of combat capable mages.

As for population, we know that Ferelden had a population of one million in 9:30. Orlais had four million. That's not even touching the other countries. Even if we're strict with the percent of people who are mages, let's say 0.1%, you'd get 1,000 mages in Ferelden alone. Four thousand in Orlais. And again, that's without touching the other countries. Even with infant mortality rates, which appear to be much lower in Thedas than in the real life Middle Ages, that's a lot of mages. And yet some people think it's a good idea for this minority group to start a bloody revolution when they're already hated and feared, not to mention that they're still split along internal factional lines,

 

The mage storyline was twisted a lot, but you need to stop saying "few" hundred as the word is never used in the game. Its simply "Hundreds".

 

Asunder was ended with mages retreating to Andoral's Reach:

 

"The surviving first enchanters, the Grand Enchanter among them, retreated to the fortress of Andoral's Reach. Most of the fifteen Circles rose against the templars, with thousands of mages gathering at Andoral's Reach in the following months. It is predicted that with hundreds of mages manning the battlements, they could fend off an army ten times their size."

 

We don't really know the actual number of mages, though I'm sure you noticed how Templars got close to zero help from anyone. The odds were against the mages, but the Templars were not in a good situation either. I think we both agree that the Templar reputation was tarnished almost immediately after they rebelled against Justinia aka the most loved and influential divine of current age. So while people might have feared the mages, they did not trust the Templars either.

[X Equestris]

The mage storyline was twisted a lot, but you need to stop saying "few" hundred as the word is never used in the game. Its simply "Hundreds".
 
Asunder was ended with mages retreating to Andoral's Reach:
 
"The surviving first enchanters, the Grand Enchanter among them, retreated to the fortress of Andoral's Reach. Most of the fifteen Circles rose against the templars, with thousands of mages gathering at Andoral's Reach in the following months. It is predicted that with hundreds of mages manning the battlements, they could fend off an army ten times their size."
 
We don't really know the actual number of mages, though I'm sure you noticed how Templars got close to zero help from anyone. The odds were against the mages, but the Templars were not in a good situation either. I think we both agree that the Templar reputation was tarnished almost immediately after they rebelled against Justinia aka the most loved and influential divine of current age. So while people might have feared the mages, they did not trust the Templars either.

And the mage's have lost many of their people. Plenty left once they tired of rebellion, or splintered into mage supremacist groups like what we saw in the Hinterlands. Not to mention how many of their recruits are apostates who came out of the woodwork. I think this also says something unfortunate about Fiona's competence as a leader if she went from having several thousand people to having less than a thousand.

Also, note how Andoral's Reach is entirely abandoned, and with good reason. The Templars probably could have blockaded the fort and starved them out.

The Templars might not have gotten outside help, but they're still more popular among the common folk at the time of Inquisition than the mages were. That much is clear from many, many sources.

[Lulupab]

But the mages got outside help, so you need to define "popular". Going against the divine removes any popularity one has, specially when suspected for killing the divine later.

 

The Templars were not welcome in Ferelden, whereas Ferelden decided to give shelter to Mages. The Templars didn't care that there were none-mages in Redcliff, they proceeded to attack and kill them, which in desperation caused Fiona to ally with Alexius.

 

The mages were more popular than Templars, at least in Ferelden. King Alistair cameo in DA2 shows that mages are already being favored in Ferelden long before Inquisition.

[Para9on So1dier]

In Awakening he was one of my favs.

 

Dragon Age 2 ruined him imo.

[Hauk]

I don't "like" Anders, but I appreciate him and what he brought to the series.

[DebatableBubble]

There are no words to adequately describe my feelings for Anders. Maybe savage snarling but that's it.

[Ryzaki]

Rival Anders - Yeah I feel sorry for him.

 

Friendship Anders can go die in a fire though.

[Elhanan]

In Awakening he was one of my favs.
 
Dragon Age 2 ruined him imo.

Ruined is a bit too strong in my perspective, but I did learn to play w/o a Healer in the party after the first campaign.

[TheOgre]

The rivalry romance cutscene actually made me feel pretty good about him. The big one near the end of the game.

 

Then again I loved all of DA2, except for Fenris.