833 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaulen]

I don't see the Battle at the end as 'kill all Templars, to free the mages' it's more of 'Protect the Kirwall Circle Mages against the Templars'

(who as Orsino points out are going to annul the Circle for the actions of a Mage that wasn't even part of the circle and who MEREDITH let run around without chantry oversight)

 

 

I like Anders overall as a character in many ways better than Fenris. He's more conflicted.

Anders can be contrite for what he did but say it was the only way he saw, and accept a death judgement...

He can also say kill me and I will be a martyr, a rallying cause!

He can be kicked out and left like a footnote to the happenings

He can kind of see the light and help to mitigate the damage that will happen to the innocent mages (still pretty much thinks he was correct)

He can be supported in his decision and (imo) go fully *mad* and join with Vengence

He can be made to support the Templars against the mages (i.e. your decision was totally wrong!) and (imo) it's him fighting against Vengence and seeing that what he did was not the best way...

 

Fenris sides with the mages only on friendship path (he's starting to see shades of grey), rivalry he sides against you (still seeing the world in black and white), he can side against you and you may be able to convince him to re-join your side (conceeds that there may be shades of grey)......

 

 

But Anders can be made to see that his decision was wrong....Fenris on the other hand, given the choice, would still be for killing all the mages.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It cannot, however, be argued accurately or morally. Especially since the templars aren't even paying attention to the demons. If the templars possessed any ability to prioritize, they would be defending the city from those demons, not massacring its citizens.

 

Do your research. I distinctly remember the Templars fighting demons in the street alongside Hawke.

 

This is all beside the point, though. You can quite logically believe -- rightly or wrongly -- that fighting the Templars in the final quest will result in more chaos, disorder, and (oh, yes) death than the annulment. Aveline reasons similarly in favor of siding with Meredith (is she some anti-mage bigot)? Selling out Fenris is not similarly defensible.

[Iakus]

Note that I edited the previous post, to include every templar in Kirkwall who chose to participate in the Annulment. All of them are just as culpable as Anders in the Annulment; moreso, actually, as Anders doesn't even participate in it. So if that's what you condemn Anders for, you'd logically have to kill all of the templars.

 

The templars are a small army.  Hundreds, perhaps thousands of people.  How many of them know anything beyond "the mages killed the grand cleric and blew up the chantry?"

 

The templars who bear the blame are Meredith and those who witnessed Anders' litle speech and didn't point out that he was an apostate (most of whom likely ended up dying trying to kill Hawke right afterwards).  Even Cullen, in the end, chooses to take prisoners rather than kill all the mages, and in the end turns on Meredith.

 

Also keep in mind, getting mages killed was Anders' intention.  He knew they were innocent of his crime, and wanted them to die for it anyway, to touch off his War of No Compromise.  THis is different from templar grunts who are being fed misinformation by the Mayor of Crazytown.

[Xilizhra]

Do your research. I distinctly remember the Templars fighting demons in the street alongside Hawke.

Something that I've never seen, so they apparently just ignore every last demon if Hawke sides with the mages

 

 

The templars are a small army.  Hundreds, perhaps thousands of people.  How many of them know anything beyond "the mages killed the grand cleric and blew up the chantry?"

 

The templars who bear the blame are Meredith and those who witnessed Anders' litle speech and didn't point out that he was an apostate (most of whom likely ended up dying trying to kill Hawke right afterwards).  Even Cullen, in the end, chooses to take prisoners rather than kill all the mages, and in the end turns on Meredith.

 

Also keep in mind, getting mages killed was Anders' intention.  He knew they were innocent of his crime, and wanted them to die for it anyway, to touch off his War of No Compromise.  THis is different from templar grunts who are being fed misinformation by the Mayor of Crazytown.

Orders are no excuse. We've determined this. If I had the choice, I would bring every last one of them to trial, including Cullen.

[Iakus]

Iakus it still doesn't reslove Fenris responsibility if he choses to go that route, as well. The mages weren't the cause of the chantry bombing, since the man that was responsible was standing right in front of me. Fenris choses too kill everyone in the cricle, even the children if his Friendship/rivialy level isn't high enough. It's doesnt resolve his either.

If you can't get his friendship/rivalry high enough, yes.  My first playthrough I actually ended up killing both Anders and Fenris.

[Xilizhra]

This is all beside the point, though. You can quite logically believe -- rightly or wrongly -- that fighting the Templars in the final quest will result in more chaos, disorder, and (oh, yes) death than the annulment. Aveline reasons similarly in favor of siding with Meredith (is she some anti-mage bigot)? Selling out Fenris is not similarly defensible.

I highly disagree with your first statement. And for Aveline, yes, she is. Which is demonstrated if Caress gets her to turn on you in Night Terrors.

[Iakus]

 

Orders are no excuse. We've determined this. If I had the choice, I would bring every last one of them to trial, including Cullen.

 

Would you bring Anders to trial?

[Who Knows]

Which still doesn't change the fact that Anders is filled with glee at the thought whereas Fenris doesn't revel in his decision at all and sees no other way. But let's take a closer look at the choice Fenris is confronted with if his relationship is not maxed and Hawke sides with mages. At that point, it looks like it will be a battle to kill as many templars as possible, maybe even all of them, so that all the mages in Kirkwall can be freed. To Fenris, a place where mages are free = Tevinter. Free mages = magisters. Magisters = Danarius. Fighting for the mages here is fighting for another Tevinter Imperium. It means fighting for slavery, and sick experiments using blood magic. Unless Fenris trusts Hawke completely, he cannot do that. So by default, fighting for mages is out, yes. Now I am torn between thinking that Fenris walking away from the situation in this case would have suited his character better, and the idea that his decision to stay and fight is because he cares about the faith of the people without magic and thus he is acting out of his sense for the greater good. 

 

I do not mean to condone his decision to fight with Meredith, because the Right of Annulment was an extreme measure and should not have been called for. But I can see his reasoning for choosing the way he does. It's also a little unfair to say "oh, this is what he does by default, so by default he is a bad person" because both friendship and rivalry can convince him to side with Hawke and therefore the mages, and an unmaxed relationship score can represent lack of effort on Hawke's part to help Fenris overcome his issues. Even if he is NOT maxed, he can still be persuaded to defend the mages when Hawke forces him to consider them as slaves, rather than future magisters. This again suggests that he is reasoning from the viewpoint to oppose slavery and prevent new slavers from being created, and his initial reaction is to connect (free) mages with slavery, rather than see the mages in the Circle as oppressed and the ones to be defended.

 

Then back to Anders and his "teehee, hand him over to the evil magister!": Anders does not gain a thing when Fenris is sold back into slavery. He no longer has to see the guy who refuses to believe he is strong and worthy of admiration. Woohoo. That's it. Despite his views, up till that point Fenris has never proven to be a straight up threat to mages. He wants to see slavers dead, not mages. He argues in favor of the Circle when a decision is to be made but if Hawke decides otherwise, he will go along with it. He outright refuses to rat Merill and Anders out to the templars when Sebastian suggests it. Anders cheering on the decision to hand Fenris over is pure maliciousness, born out of spite, whereas Fenris' ultimate decision to side with the templars (again, I think this is better seen as NOT siding with the mages) stems from the idea he will prevent the rise of a second Tevinter.

It isn't a battle to killl as many templars as possible. You don't get to kill Templar Carver (notice you do get to have Circle Mage Bethany slain if you side with templars), and after Cullen and his templars stand down Hawke leaves them be. Clearly you are not choosing between kill all templars or killing all mages. At the time your choice is locked in, you are choosing between saving the mages from being executed by Templars or helping the annulment. Yes, you can save a few mages in the Templar ending, but at the time the choice is made, Fenris (and Hawke, potentially) are agreeing to help Meredith's plan to slay them all. Saving some later is metagame knowledge.

 

Siding with mages isn't necessarily a battle to ensure that the Kirkwall mages who escape never end up in another Circle.

It is a battle to prevent the templars from slaying all of the mages for a crime they did not commit. This includes children. I realize that Fenris sees free mages as potential if not guarantee for another Tevinter Imperium. This does not mean that his natural decision to kill all of these mages is not still terribly wrong. I don't see how it's unfair to say that by default. Fenris should not need Hawke's opinion in order to have the moral decency not to help Meredith kill of Circle mages. He is capable of making his own decisions, let's not pin the blame and shift the responsibility on Hawke, who may not be a mage to begin with.

 

If it were simply not siding with the mages, he could just elect to not help either side. Easy. Aveline does this under certain circumstances.

The fact that he goes out of his way to fight alongside Meredith means it's not simply about not siding with mages.

 

Anders sees Fenris as a threat to the mages. Anders is right about that. Fenris is a threat, and he proves so when he sides with the templars by default. Hawke could do everything for Fenris, help him defeat the slavers pursuing him, including Danarius, yet that is apparently not enough if you happen not to have friendship or 100% rivalry with him. If you don't have enough rivalry or friendship, he won't leave Meredith's side no matter what you say. You do indeed need to twist his arm.

 

Ultimately, the death toll of innocents would be greater in a complete annulment than the death toll of Ander's immediate actions.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Something that I've never seen, so they apparently just ignore every last demon if Hawke sides with the mages

 

> Using gameplay-mechanics as an argument.

 

 

I ain't about this life.

[Ryriena]

If you can't get his friendship/rivalry high enough, yes. My first playthrough I actually ended up killing both Anders and Fenris.

Fenris got me on Night terrors to point I turned off tactics.

[Dutchess]

Anders recovers if you friend him and side with the mages.

 

Oh, so Hawke making the awesome choice is so awesome that Anders is promptly separated from Justice? What he has done to himself cannot be undone, especially not on the friendship path, because then his mind has fully merged with Justice. He will remain that cause and kill again for it.

 

Fenris is not a threat to mages only as long as he's on Hawke's leash. Which he can leave in an attempt to slaughter every mage in Kirkwall unless Hawke yanks him back. Anders presumably sees this.

 

I actually did a "wtf" out loud at this. 

 

Killing children for the crimes of one mage is an worst off crime than killing Elthina a leader of the ones that have opressed Mages. Fenris only gets better on the rivrly path and only if you've got at least 100% approval from him. So no he doesn't get better he willing goes along with Meredith to kill every child and adult mage in the circle if his approval is not high enough. Also your using circular logic here and ignoring the flaws in Fenris.
Anders for an example asks too die in his rivialy path, Fenris not so much if he choses to betray you for Meredith.

 

Where am I using circular logic? I explained why "default" Fenris decides to side against the mages and that he can overcome his biases if Hawke helps him or as a last resort rubs the slavery thing under his nose. I'm not being circular, nor do I ignore Fenris' issues. I wrote another (far too lengthy) post about it.

 

Iakus it still doesn't reslove Fenris responsibility if he choses to go that route, as well. The mages weren't the cause of the chantry bombing, since the man that was responsible was standing right in front of me. Fenris choses too kill everyone in the cricle, even the children if his Friendship/rivialy level isn't high enough. It's doesnt resolve his either.

 

You keep mentioning the children in the Circle and I feel I need to point out that in the game there never seems to be a mention of them. I don't recall even Orsino referring to them when Meredith calls for the Right, and there were never any in the Gallows. It almost seems like an oversight, maybe also to make Hawke potentially siding with the templars less gruesome. Everyone and everything seems to focus on the adult mages. Even if children are included, that does not mean that Fenris will personally run them all through. I find it more likely that he will focus on adult mages who actively resist and then leave.

 

 

 

 

Fenris sides with the mages only on friendship path (he's starting to see shades of grey), rivalry he sides against you (still seeing the world in black and white), he can side against you and you may be able to convince him to re-join your side (conceeds that there may be shades of grey)......

 

Wrong. Friendship or rivalry maxed = Fenris stays with Hawke and defends the mages.

[Xilizhra]

Would you bring Anders to trial?

After separating him from Justice so we can ensure that we handle both individual entities properly, yes.

 

 

> Using gameplay-mechanics as an argument.

 

 

I ain't about this life.

If you can show me evidence that the templars do anything about the demons when Hawke sides with the mages, please do so.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, so Hawke making the awesome choice is so awesome that Anders is promptly separated from Justice? What he has done to himself cannot be undone, especially not on the friendship path, because then his mind has fully merged with Justice. He will remain that cause and kill again for it.

We'll see. So long as he sticks to killing templars, I'm fine with it.

[Ryriena]

You hear Gregior and Wayne state in DAO they murder, even the children in the Rite of Anuliment. Just because Meredith doesn't mention the children doesn't mean their not going too kill them, as well. Why do you think Wayne was all mama bear?

[Who Knows]

I'm sure Fenris is aware that children can be possessed. Or even be blood mages.

He is helping Meredith enact the annulment, which does include the slaying of mage children. He may not personally do it, but he is enabling Meredith to do so. It is not as if Fenris has enough clout on his own to force Meredith to be selective.

[Iakus]

After separating him from Justice so we can ensure that we handle both individual entities properly, yes.

 

They're not individual entities though.  They are a single being.  On the rivalry path Anders tries to fight it, but ultimately loses.

 

So, would Anders/Justice stand trial for what they did?

[Dutchess]

It isn't a battle to killl as many templars as possible. You don't get to kill Templar Carver (notice you do get to have Circle Mage Bethany slain if you side with templars), and after Cullen and his templars stand down Hawke leaves them be. Clearly you are not choosing between kill all templars or killing all mages. At the time your choice is locked in, you are choosing between saving the mages from being executed by Templars or helping the annulment. Yes, you can save a few mages in the Templar ending, but at the time the choice is made, Fenris (and Hawke, potentially) are agreeing to help Meredith's plan to slay them all. Saving some later is metagame knowledge.

 

Siding with mages isn't necessarily a battle to ensure that the Kirkwall mages who escape never end up in another Circle.

It is a battle to prevent the templars from slaying all of the mages for a crime they did not commit. This includes children. I realize that Fenris sees free mages as potential if not guarantee for another Tevinter Imperium. This does not mean that his natural decision to kill all of these mages is not still terribly wrong. I don't see how it's unfair to say that by default. Fenris should not need Hawke's opinion in order to have the moral decency not to help Meredith kill of Circle mages. He is capable of making his own decisions, let's not pin the blame and shift the responsibility on Hawke, who may not be a mage to begin with.

 

If it were simply not siding with the mages, he could just elect to not help either side. Easy. Aveline does this under certain circumstances.

The fact that he goes out of his way to fight alongside Meredith means it's not simply about not siding with mages.

 

Anders sees Fenris as a threat to the mages. Anders is right about that. Fenris is a threat, and he proves so when he sides with the templars by default. Hawke could do everything for Fenris, help him defeat the slavers pursuing him, including Danarius, yet that is apparently not enough if you happen not to have friendship or 100% rivalry with him. If you don't have enough rivalry or friendship, he won't leave Meredith's side no matter what you say. You do indeed need to twist his arm.

 

Ultimately, the death toll of innocents would be greater in a complete annulment than the death toll of Ander's immediate actions.

 

How do you protect the mages and prevent them from being killed? By killing the templars who are trying to kill them until they stop. That will be when they are all dead or when the remaining ones give up. Either way there won't be supervision over the mages who remain and they can flee Kirkwall. Then you get guys like the ones from the Starkhaven Circle, who resort to blood magic and are willing to kill templars to keep their freedom. Tracking them and catching them will be difficult and some will probably manage to remain free and therefore a risk to others. 

I never mentioned how the "innocent" mages are spared anyway in the pro-templar ending.

 

The underlined is only half true. If Fenris is on the friendship path (not maxed) you can convince him to join you and fight for the mages by comparing the mages in the Circle to slaves.

 

We'll see. So long as he sticks to killing templars, I'm fine with it.

 

He stopped sticking to that a while ago. 1. There were no templars in the Chantry. 2. Ella (that's her name, I think) was a mage, the mage he intended to protect, and he kills her unless Hawke stops him.

[Ryriena]

Dutchess, their were Templars inside the Chantry. Did you watch the scene were it shows exactly five or six Templars surrounding Elthina? Elia can be saved with enough influence, and he was enraged by the Templars in the room.

[Dutchess]

He did not blow up the Chantry for those templars but for the Grand Cleric. I guess those few templars were a nice bonus. And Anders/Justice was enraged because Elia called him a demon. That's why he turned hostile on her. Not because she had been in the presence of templars.

[Iakus]

Dutchess, their were Templars inside the Chantry. Did you watch the scene were it shows exactly five or six Templars surrounding Elthina? Elia can be saved with enough influence, and he was enraged by the Templars in the room.

And Elthina was not a Templar, nor were any of the chantry brothers or sisters in the building (Sebastian points out it was mere chance he wasn't in the chantry with Elthina at the time), nor was anyone who happened to be in there praying, making deliveries, lighting candles, or simply going about their business.

 

Should Anders stand trial for their murders?

[Ryriena]

I would be enraged too, after all, Arlik was going to rape her after he made her Tranquil. Elthina is to me the leader of the Templar order and did not step in when she needed too.

[Lulupab]

I would be enraged too, after all, Arlik was going to rape her after he made her Traquill.

I feel for Ella, I really do. But it was foolish to insult a fully enraged Justice, its reaction was inevitable.

[Ryriena]

I feel for Ella, I really do. But it was foolish to insult a fully enraged Justice, its reaction was inevitable.

Although, she didn't understand the difference between the two. However, that is victam blaming something I don't do. Changed my post!

[Iakus]

I feel for Ella, I really do. But it was foolish to insult a fully enraged Justice, its reaction was inevitable.

Not if he was truly a spirit of Justice.

[Ryriena]

Not if he was truly a spirit of Justice.

I am thinking he was vengeance by this time.