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[lil yonce]

The templars are a small army.  Hundreds, perhaps thousands of people.  How many of them know anything beyond "the mages killed the grand cleric and blew up the chantry?"

Maybe they should ask before they start killing people?

[Xilizhra]

They're not individual entities though.  They are a single being.  On the rivalry path Anders tries to fight it, but ultimately loses.

 

So, would Anders/Justice stand trial for what they did?

Legally speaking, I can't do it because the proper sentence for each would be very different given their very different physiology; not only that, the separation would be vital for both of them to find rehabilitation. So separation is my top priority.

 

 

Not if he was truly a spirit of Justice.

A spirit of justice who's been far too close to a darkspawn-tainted soul for too long.

[Lulupab]

Not if he was truly a spirit of Justice.

He is the Justice we know from Awakening most of the time, but Anders' anger stimulation changes himself and Justice into Vengeance. So she insulted a fully enraged Vengeance.

Although, she didn't understand the difference between the two. However, that is victam blaming something I don't do. Changed my post!

Not really, she is a victim but victims can be quite stupid sometimes. I highly doubt anything would have happened if she simply stayed silent. Its like standing in thug neighborhoods in middle of night and counting your money in public. The mugged person holds some of the blame as well.

[Ryriena]

I still don't want to go into victim blaming territory, even if I like Anders.

[Iakus]

Legally speaking, I can't do it because the proper sentence for each would be very different given their very different physiology; not only that, the separation would be vital for both of them to find rehabilitation. So separation is my top priority.

 

They can't be separated, though.  They are a single entity.  Anders no longer exists.  Neither does Justice.  They are one.   They are Vengeance.

 

But let's play along for a moment.  Do you think either of them deserve to be executed for the murder of everyone in that chantry?

 

 

A spirit of justice who's been far too close to a darkspawn-tainted soul for too long.

So, no longer a spirit of Justice, then.

[Iakus]

Maybe they should ask before they start killing people?

That's part of what makes an army cohesive.

 

Trust in the person in authority over them.

[Xilizhra]

They can't be separated, though.  They are a single entity.  Anders no longer exists.  Neither does Justice.  They are one.   They are Vengeance.

 

But let's play along for a moment.  Do you think either of them deserve to be executed for the murder of everyone in that chantry?

I don't believe in the death penalty, so no.

 

I wasn't going to kill all of the templars at the end of the trial. Imprisoned them, disbanded the order, forbade them from carrying weapons ever again, perhaps, but not death.

[Iakus]

I don't believe in the death penalty, so no.

 

I wasn't going to kill all of the templars at the end of the trial. Imprisoned them, disbanded the order, forbade them from carrying weapons ever again, perhaps, but not death.

Sounds rather unenforcable.

 

Unless you're considering removing hands.

[Xilizhra]

Sounds rather unenforcable.

 

Unless you're considering removing hands.

Those who are still lyrium-addicted would need to play by the rules in order to have enough to avoid withdrawal symptoms that are too crippling, I suspect.

[Lulupab]

They can't be separated, though.  They are a single entity.  Anders no longer exists.  Neither does Justice.  They are one.   They are Vengeance.
 
But let's play along for a moment.  Do you think either of them deserve to be executed for the murder of everyone in that chantry?

This is true but its Anders' anger which warped Justice in the first place, and when Anders is not angry Justice is able to express his opinions in Anders' mind, they are a single entity with two minds. When Anders is angry which mostly happens when Templars are involved, Anders loses himself to the anger and the very same anger temporarily transforms Justice into a force of Vengeance which according to Anders "is no longer his friend Justice". Apart from this, this is exactly the Justice we know from Awakening. Justice always points out the injustice mages go though during the awakening and our encounter with him in the fade in DA2 pretty much proves this.

[Elfquisitor]

I like him and the tragedy attached to his character. His romance feels real as well, he doesn't worship Hawke like the rest of romances and somethings are important than love.

LOL. Somehow I knew that you would like him. You are very pro-sparcle finger type. And to give my opinion, I hated him. Nothing like the real Anders from Awakening.

[Iakus]

Those who are still lyrium-addicted would need to play by the rules in order to have enough to avoid withdrawal symptoms that are too crippling, I suspect.

 

How does that make you any better than the Chantry to so dislike?

This is true but its Anders' anger which warped Justice in the first place, and when Anders is not angry Justice is able to express his opinions in Anders' mind, they are a single entity with two minds. When Anders is angry which mostly happens when Templars are involved, Anders loses himself to the anger and the very same anger temporarily transforms Justice into a force of Vengeance which according to Anders "is no longer his friend Justice". Apart from this, this is exactly the Justice we know from Awakening. Justice always points out the injustice mages go though during the awakening and our encounter with him in the fade in DA2 pretty much proves this.

 

Right Justice is no longer Justice.  He's been warped into Vengeance.  It's tragic, but it happened.

[Xilizhra]

How does that make you any better than the Chantry to so dislike?

Well, if I can't cure the addiction, and if continuing to supply lyrium to those who are demonstrating an apparent willingness to illegally take up arms again is insane, there doesn't seem to be any choice.

[Lulupab]

Right Justice is no longer Justice.  He's been warped into Vengeance.  It's tragic, but it happened.

 

Not permanently. Its literally an anger issue. Even Wynne slips at the end of asunder when she gets really angry. Spirits are directly connected to their host's emotions and that's exactly how it affects them, directly.

[Dark Helmet]

I liked Anders in Awakening. He was funny and cool to have around.

 

Funny Anders was gone pretty early in 2.

[HiroVoid]

If you like Anders, then technically, someone likes Anders.

[Who Knows]

How do you protect the mages and prevent them from being killed? By killing the templars who are trying to kill them until they stop. That will be when they are all dead or when the remaining ones give up. Either way there won't be supervision over the mages who remain and they can flee Kirkwall. Then you get guys like the ones from the Starkhaven Circle, who resort to blood magic and are willing to kill templars to keep their freedom. Tracking them and catching them will be difficult and some will probably manage to remain free and therefore a risk to others. 

I never mentioned how the "innocent" mages are spared anyway in the pro-templar ending.

 

The underlined is only half true. If Fenris is on the friendship path (not maxed) you can convince him to join you and fight for the mages by comparing the mages in the Circle to slaves.

 

 

He stopped sticking to that a while ago. 1. There were no templars in the Chantry. 2. Ella (that's her name, I think) was a mage, the mage he intended to protect, and he kills her unless Hawke stops him.

Except not all of the Templars actually elect to kill all of the mages.

Example: Carver, Cullen, and Cullen's Templars. Given the fact that a mage-templar alliance existed in Act 3 as well, there's sure to be more who refuse in the city.

That is why it's not about killing all Templars, because not all of them are obeying Meredith's every whim to commit genocide. Every Templar who isn't attacking mages is spared in the mage ending no matter what you do.

The end game choice is not choosing between killing all templars or killing all circle mages. It is choosing between protecting circle mages or killing all circle mages. Fenris is agreeing to the latter.

Siding the templars means the guaranteed and direct slaying of innocents, whereas protecting them against the templars only leaves the potential. Yes, it's very likely that some of these mages are dangerous, but so there is no doubt that the Templars killing all of the circle mages are dangerous murderers.

Killing innocents to save innocents makes very little sense when the Circle had nothing to do with the bombing.

 

I did say enough friendship or rivalry. You obviously can get both kinds in single playthrough.

If you want to get technical, if you are on the upper half of rivalry but not 100%, there is no possible way to convince Fenris to not to help Meredith slaughter the mages. That's on him.

[Dutchess]

At the time Meredith calls for the RoA, not one templar protests. Not Carver, not Cullen, no anonymous templar. Cullen only protests when Meredith orders the templars to kill Hawke. He does not disobey her for the mages, but for the Champion. Carver also seems to switch sides more for the sake of Hawke than the mages in the Circle. Saying that not all templars want to kill all the mages is as much metagaming knowledge as sparing innocent mages on the templar side. At the moment of choice, it seems to be a battle to the death of one of the two parties. Which is why Varric and Aveline express strong doubts on their chances to win when siding with the mages. 

[Who Knows]

Saying that not all templars want to kill all the mages is as much metagaming knowledge as sparing innocent mages on the templar side.

Not at all. You've literally already seen it before the end game quest. Thrask, Samson, Keran and the other templars who joined with the mages to overthrow Meredith. It would be foolish to assume that literally every templar still alive would obey Meredith's command, given so many examples of those would not.

[Althix]

"to kill Hawke."

before that however, Cullen is looking up to Hawke about some matters, which includes several cases of mages and templars. situations which you encounter during your play through entire game.

Which makes me believe, that Hawke or not, Cullen would stand for what is right by his understanding.

[Dutchess]

Not at all. You've literally already seen it before the end game quest. Thrask, Samson, Keran and the other templars who joined with the mages to overthrow Meredith. It would be foolish to assume that literally every templar still alive would obey Meredith's command, given so many examples of those would not.

 

And that conspiracy was uncovered and presented to Cullen, who would have informed Meredith, and all templars involved can look for a new job. According to Keran Thrask was working "carefully, one mage and templar at a time". He can't have converted THAT many templars to his cause that way and there's nothing that suggests that not every templar and mage involved with Thrask was present at the Wounded Coast, which means they all got arrested or killed. Even if some were at the Gallows when Grace went berserk, Cullen (and therefore Meredith) has a bunch of conspirators to interrogate on who else was involved. I don't know what manners of interrogation templars are allowed to use, but I'm sure they can come up with something persuasive. All in all I don't believe many of the more willing templars are left. Grace & co (and also mr innocent Alain) being blood mages and/or abominations is also unlikely to have bolstered confidence among the "converted" templars that granting mages more freedom is wise. 

 

Again, when Meredith calls for the Right, and during the initial fights to the death, not a single templar speaks up and throws down his sword. When you made the choice and directly after it there is no sign you or the mages will receive mercy from the templars.

[_xkg_]

I certainly don't. He wasn't just incredibly whiny but incredibly stupid too with how he handled the situation. He blew up a Chantry full of innocent people, wouldn't a better place to attack be the Gallows, specifically the templar HQ? Even then he'd still be killing innocents and I think given the prior situation, Anders could have just revealed himself in the open attacking some templars and it would have led to Meredith calling for the annulment. Instead the idiot kills a bunch of non-mages and innocent people to get the war started.

[Ryriena]

I certainly don't. He wasn't just incredibly whiny but incredibly stupid too with how he handled the situation. He blew up a Chantry full of innocent people, wouldn't a better place to attack be the Gallows, specifically the templar HQ? Even then he'd still be killing innocents and I think given the prior situation, Anders could have just revealed himself in the open attacking some templars and it would have led to Meredith calling for the annulment. Instead the idiot kills a bunch of non-mages and innocent people to get the war started.

I wouldn't call Elthina and a few templars innocent people in this either, after all. Also, I wouldn't call him whiny, I bet you call Kaidan a whiner too.

[Sifr]

I liked Anders in both Awakening and DA2, despite his frequent "I am Mage, hear me roar" spiels in the latter.

 

DA2 however made me start to loathe Justice, since most of the flack Anders gets probably boils down to his influence. If only the Keep allowed us to go back and change it so that the Warden never offered to help that damnable Spirit and brought him back with them out of the Blackmarsh.

[KaiserShep]

Not at all. You've literally already seen it before the end game quest. Thrask, Samson, Keran and the other templars who joined with the mages to overthrow Meredith. It would be foolish to assume that literally every templar still alive would obey Meredith's command, given so many examples of those would not.

 

It would certainly not be foolish, however, to assume that enough Templars would follow through with her order that those who object make little to no difference.