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[lil yonce]

That's part of what makes an army cohesive.

 

Trust in the person in authority over them.

Then, absolutely, if it wasn't clear before, the danger of a standing army in a circle is too great, and thus must be eliminated from the towers.

[Xilizhra]

And that conspiracy was uncovered and presented to Cullen, who would have informed Meredith, and all templars involved can look for a new job. According to Keran Thrask was working "carefully, one mage and templar at a time". He can't have converted THAT many templars to his cause that way and there's nothing that suggests that not every templar and mage involved with Thrask was present at the Wounded Coast, which means they all got arrested or killed. Even if some were at the Gallows when Grace went berserk, Cullen (and therefore Meredith) has a bunch of conspirators to interrogate on who else was involved. I don't know what manners of interrogation templars are allowed to use, but I'm sure they can come up with something persuasive. All in all I don't believe many of the more willing templars are left. Grace & co (and also mr innocent Alain) being blood mages and/or abominations is also unlikely to have bolstered confidence among the "converted" templars that granting mages more freedom is wise. 

 

Again, when Meredith calls for the Right, and during the initial fights to the death, not a single templar speaks up and throws down his sword. When you made the choice and directly after it there is no sign you or the mages will receive mercy from the templars.

So Fenris sees submission as preferable to extinction?

 

Since he surrenders to Danarius, it would appear so.

[Killdren88]

Liked him in Awakening...not so much in DA2.

[Adanu]

Fenris can fight for the mages, both on the friendship and rivalry path.  Hawke can show him a better way.

 

Anders/Vengeance blows up a chantry (killing who knows how many innocents) and condemns dozens, if not hundreds of mages to a violent death on the point of Templar blades no mater what.

 

Anders is no more responsible for the choices of corrupt Templars than Meredith is responsible for the actions of every blood mage.

[Dutchess]

So Fenris sees submission as preferable to extinction?

 

Since he surrenders to Danarius, it would appear so.

 

I'm afraid I don't really understand the point you're trying to make here. Anders even asks Fenris why he has never killed himself while serving Danarius. Fenris' answer suggests that he does want to believe living is better, even when it's living in slavery. But I think his surrender in Act 3 signifies his complete hopelessness rather than an instinct to survive. He is so utterly defeated by Hawke's betrayal that he cannot even find the will to start a battle he will lose anyway and will have the same outcome as simply going with Danarius. 

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I loved the real Anders, a.k.a. Awakening Anders. I even liked DA2 "Anders" during my first playthrough of DA2. But the more I played DA2, the more I began to dislike DA2 Anders. More and more, until I eventually did a playthrough where I actually killed him.

[Catastrophy]

DAO: Yes

 

DA2: Didn't get that far.

[Fiddles dee dee]

Obviously "like" is too small a word to describe "The Anders".

 

"The Anders" walks and people quake in fear or quiver in their incandescent rage (or other things, I'm not one to judge). His magnificent demonstration of just what it is the be subtle clearly drew ire from some corners but maybe no one truly understands "the Anders". 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While writing this I was reminded of one BSN user who had a bizarre attraction not so much to Anders but to Justice and saw Anders as a way of pursuing Justice...yeah I don't know about that one.

[MissOuJ]

Resident Anders-stand here.

 

Yeah, like his character a lot. Possibly one of my favourite character in the whole DA-universe (that list is long, though: I like most of the characters, and who I don't like I love to hate). Doesn't mean I don't want to slap him at times, since some of his party banter with people is just plain nasty and spiteful (some of his dialogue with Merrill and Aveline, for example). He'd also annoyingly ignorant of some regards (like the elven opression), and he has a jealous streak a mile wide, which is not exactly a positive.

 

But all in all? He's pretty swell guy. He uses his gifts helping the poor and the helpless (you know, what the Chantry should be doing) when he's not running around with Hawke and working with the Mage Underground to help apostates and Circle mages. He's opinionated and vocal, which I'll take over vapid and indecisive any day. Also, willing to put his money where his mouth is, and willing to live with the consequences. He's a bit needy, but in a somewhat adorkable way. He's also loyal, altruistic and self-sacrifising. There's a lot to like, IMO.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Anders I know and love to hang around with is in Awakening. I hate what Anders become in DA2 now he's a weepy, angsty, over dramatic, melodramatic, selfish, hypocritical douchebag, and in short terrible when compare to his old self in DAA.

That said I appreciate some of his actions in DA2 such as saving your sibling or help you...but mostly I dislike him, and I can already imagine my Warden yell something like this to him "How dare you desert the wardens and really? Blows up the Chantry? Kills the Grand Cleric?! Sacrifice the innocent to send a message is not what the Grey Warden stands for!"

[Ryriena]

Anders I know and love to hang around with is in Awakening. I hate what Anders become in DA2 now he's a weepy, angsty, over dramatic, melodramatic, selfish, hypocritical douchebag, and in short terrible when compare to his old self in DAA.

That said I appreciate some of his actions in DA2 such as saving your sibling or help you...but mostly I dislike him, and I can already imagine my Warden yell something like this to him "How dare you desert the wardens and really? Blows up the Chantry? Kills the Grand Cleric?! Sacrifice the innocent to send a message is not what the Grey Warden stands for!"

Haha you really didn't play DAO, did you? Since that's exactly what they done in a the past. Hell, their are stories of Wardens burning whole villages down to stop the darkspawn. Oh and killing innocences by the way. You really have a naive veiw like Alastiar and Wyann on the Grey Wardens.

I wouldn't call him whiny, nor Angsty now hypocritical, yes I could say that about him. Did you remember, how the wardens allowed a Templar join too keep a eye on him? And went after him, when they learned about Justice? My warden would be appalled by their behavior, since she didn't need the Templar too look after him. She would clasfiy those commanders, as bad leaders, if that is the best you could do to keep him in line. After all, your job as commander is too keep your charges from going off the deep end or keeping them out of trouble.

[MissOuJ]

Anders I know and love to hang around with is in Awakening. I hate what Anders become in DA2 now he's a weepy, angsty, over dramatic, melodramatic, selfish, hypocritical douchebag, and in short terrible when compare to his old self in DAA.

That said I appreciate some of his actions in DA2 such as saving your sibling or help you...but mostly I dislike him, and I can already imagine my Warden yell something like this to him "How dare you desert the wardens and really? Blows up the Chantry? Kills the Grand Cleric?! Sacrifice the innocent to send a message is not what the Grey Warden stands for!"

 

Have you played Awakening with a pro-Circle Warden-Commander?

 

Because then the comments Anders makes are pretty much the same he makes in DA2. The smart quips and the humour is just a coping mechanism for him. Let's also not forget he'd just been captured after yet another escape attempt. Last time, when he was taken back to the Circle he'd been held in solitary confinement for a year. He's probably experiencing some pretty intense emotional whiplash in Awakening: extatic that he isn't going back to the Circle, afraid that he will be forced there despite being a Grey Warden, shaken from the Joining and the sudden turn his life (and life-expectancy) has taken all of a sudden. Add that to the existing trauma he's endured and I'd say it's safe to say he's not the most emotionally well-balanced individual in either DAA or DA2. Justice just kinda makes it stand out.

 

Also, hypocritical I get (but that's true of pretty much all of your party), and over- and melodramatic are a matter of taste (except... he isn't really. Go to the Gallows and listen to the mages talk. Everything from Tranquil mages "belonging" to ser Alrik to Alain being scared of Karras' visits to his room and mages being beaten and what else... for me it's kinda hard to dismiss Anders as "overdramatic" "melodramatic", but whatever). But selfish? Really? Anders, who lives in the sewers, running a free clinic for the poor? Who sacrifices his time and well-being for the Mage Underground, helping apostates and circle mages who want to run? Whose personal quests are never about him? Think about it: pretty much all of you party members' personal quests are about them and their needs (Aveline's job and romance, Varric's ongoing problems with his brother and the mess he left behind, Merrill and her mirror, Fenris and Sebastian both have personal vendettas they want your help with) except Anders. He is dedicated to his cause and nothing surpasses it in his mind - not his personal ethics, not his relationships, not his own life. That's the opposite of "selfish". Sure he petrays Hawke's trust, but only for his cause, not for personal reasons... unlike all rest of your companions in the Fade, for example.

 

Also, when he has made his bed, he's willing to lie in it. He's willing to accept your judgement, whatever it is. And even if you turn Anders away and side with the Templars he comes back, willing to fight Hawke, who (I'm pretty sure) he knows he can't win. He even says something along the lines of "I started this fire, I can't just walk away!" Which is more than, for example, Isabela does regarding the Qunari incident (although I understand her reasons). He's not perfect, but neither is Hawke or any of your companions, really. Bethany and Carver are probably the least blameworthy partymembers you can have, and they're both barely adults!

 

As to the Wardens... are we talking about the same "whatever-it-takes-sacrifices-for-the-greater-good" Wardens here? Because they've done some pretty questionalble stuff which I all but guarantee has gotten many innocents killed throughout the years. (Also, Anders left the Wardens in a pretty spectacular fashion) Not getting involved with the Qunari during the Kirkwall invasion is a pretty good example. They basically said "We'd love to help, buuut Warden business... so long!" Didn't really seem to care too much about the innocent lives there.

 

EDIT Sorry for the massive TL;DR. I think I spilled feels all over this post.

[Ryriena]

Have you played Awakening with a pro-Circle Warden-Commander?

Because then the comments Anders makes are pretty much the same he makes in DA2. The smart quips and the humour is just a coping mechanism for him. Let's also not forget he'd just been captured after yet another escape attempt. Last time, when he was taken back to the Circle he'd been held in solitary confinement for a year. He's probably experiencing some pretty intense emotional whiplash in Awakening: extatic that he isn't going back to the Circle, afraid that he will be forced there despite being a Grey Warden, shaken from the Joining and the sudden turn his life (and life-expectancy) has taken all of a sudden. Add that to the existing trauma he's endured and I'd say it's safe to say he's not the most emotionally well-balanced individual in either DAA or DA2. Justice just kinda makes it stand out.

Also, hypocritical I get (but that's true of pretty much all of your party), and over- and melodramatic are a matter of taste (except... he isn't really. Go to the Gallows and listen to the mages talk. Everything from Tranquil mages "belonging" to ser Alrik to Alain being scared of Karras' visits to his room and mages being beaten and what else... for me it's kinda hard to dismiss Anders as "overdramatic" "melodramatic", but whatever). But selfish? Really? Anders, who lives in the sewers, running a free clinic for the poor? Who sacrifices his time and well-being for the Mage Underground, helping apostates and circle mages who want to run? Whose personal quests are never about him? Think about it: pretty much all of you party members' personal quests are about them and their needs (Aveline's job and romance, Varric's ongoing problems with his brother and the mess he left behind, Merrill and her mirror, Fenris and Sebastian both have personal vendettas they want your help with) except Anders. He is dedicated to his cause and nothing surpasses it in his mind - not his personal ethics, not his relationships, not his own life. That's the opposite of "selfish". Sure he petrays Hawke's trust, but only for his cause, not for personal reasons... unlike all rest of your companions in the Fade, for example.

Also, when he has made his bed, he's willing to lie in it. He's willing to accept your judgement, whatever it is. And even if you turn Anders away and side with the Templars he comes back, willing to fight Hawke, who (I'm pretty sure) he knows he can't win. He even says something along the lines of "I started this fire, I can't just walk away!" Which is more than, for example, Isabela does regarding the Qunari incident (although I understand her reasons). He's not perfect, but neither is Hawke or any of your companions, really. Bethany and Carver are probably the least blameworthy partymembers you can have, and they're both barely adults!

As to the Wardens... are we talking about the same "whatever-it-takes-sacrifices-for-the-greater-good" Wardens here? Because they've done some pretty questionalble stuff which I all but guarantee has gotten many innocents killed throughout the years. (Also, Anders left the Wardens in a pretty spectacular fashion) Not getting involved with the Qunari during the Kirkwall invasion is a pretty good example. They basically said "We'd love to help, buuut Warden business... so long!" Didn't really seem to care too much about the innocent lives there.

EDIT Sorry for the massive TL;DR. I think I spilled feels all over this post.

Laughs, I also didn't read past this is not, what wardens stand for! He also left the wardens when they allowed a Templar to join up to look after him, which is against the rules. Which this same Templar once finding out about Justice turned the Wardens against him. He was then hunted by the other wardens, because of this he felt betrayed by the wardens.

[foolishquinn]

Obviously there is a lot of love and hate for Ander's. I do truly think that he is a self pitying martyr.

 

I honestly think he is misguided idealism tainted by rage and severe anger, so driven and demented by paranoia and Justice.

 

I think his self destructive side finally won, "to hell with consequences no one will miss me when I'm gone, I am just an trigger point"

I think that was his mind set and it drove him on.

 

I really liked the character he was human like the rest of us driven, dedicated hypocrites.

I had my female Hawke romance him it was rewarding, I did not agree with everything he did, some I loved others I abhorred.

 

Him and Fenris reminded me of two little kids who did not like each other and needed the naughty step, like bickering children they were, still it was entertaining.  

 

For the chantry bombing I was disappointed how the options for dealing with Ander's were so linear, kill him or let him live. Honestly i wanted him to live and gain control of justice, repent and open an bakery with my femhawke. "apposite & cakes" 

[foolishquinn]

Obviously there is a lot of love and hate for Ander's. I do truly think that he is a self pitying martyr.

 

I honestly think he is misguided idealism tainted by rage and severe anger, so driven and demented by paranoia and Justice.

 

I think his self destructive side finally won, "to hell with consequences no one will miss me when I'm gone, I am just an trigger point"

I think that was his mind set and it drove him on.

 

I really liked the character he was human like the rest of us driven, dedicated hypocrites.

I had my female Hawke romance him it was rewarding, I did not agree with everything he did, some I loved others I abhorred.

 

Him and Fenris reminded me of two little kids who did not like each other and needed the naughty step, like bickering children they were, still it was entertaining.  

 

For the chantry bombing I was disappointed how the options for dealing with Ander's were so linear, kill him or let him live. Honestly i wanted him to live and gain control of justice, repent and open an bakery with my femhawke. "apposite & cakes" 

[sylvanaerie]

I can't stand him.  I know lots of people like him and either look the other way during the action he takes at the end, or actively support his actions.  My Hawke's opinions of him have varied from pity, annoyance to outright loathing.

 

I don't like his greasy, creepy appearance and the stalkerish way he behaves with Hawke (propositioning Hawke 5 minutes after stabbing his former lover/friend in the gut and 7 years later he's jealous of Merrill or Fenris, badmouthing them though my Hawke wouldn't give him the time of day).

 

While I had different motives for doing so on different Hawke's, he's never made it out of over a dozen playthroughs alive at the end of my game.

[Xilizhra]

I can't stand him.  I know lots of people like him and either look the other way during the action he takes at the end, or actively support his actions.  My Hawke's opinions of him have varied from pity, annoyance to outright loathing.

 

I don't like his greasy, creepy appearance and the stalkerish way he behaves with Hawke (propositioning Hawke 5 minutes after stabbing his former lover/friend in the gut and 7 years later he's jealous of Merrill or Fenris, badmouthing them though my Hawke wouldn't give him the time of day).

 

While I had different motives for doing so on different Hawke's, he's never made it out of over a dozen playthroughs alive at the end of my game.

That's not intended to be five minutes after; it's supposed to happen after a timeskip because you leave the clinic and then come back in (also, he says "the last time we talked"). It's just that, since the clinic isn't its own location, it's too easy to backtrack.

And I really don't see "greasy."

[Ryriena]

I also don't see how having a crush on someone is stalkerish! In fact, his biggest fear is that the Templars would take hawke from him, after all. I mean, he tells you this if you romanced him in the first place. That its was forbidden in the cricle to have relationships due to the Templars using the person you care about against you.

[sylvanaerie]

That's not intended to be five minutes after; it's supposed to happen after a timeskip because you leave the clinic and then come back in (also, he says "the last time we talked"). It's just that, since the clinic isn't its own location, it's too easy to backtrack.

And I really don't see "greasy."

 

I don't care what kind of 'time skip' is there, his actions immediately following that incident are all about 'mememememememe' when he goes on and on about Justice and the merger.  

 

And to me, he is 'greasy' with his unkempt, nasty ponytail with pieces sticking out and the 'I haven't shaved in a month' overgrown off colored dark whiskers.  His pointed chin makes his face look weasel-like to me.  If this appeals to you, more power to you but I found him so repellent that even after I put a mod that improved his looks in I still couldn't like him.  

 

At all.

 

I also don't see how having a crush on someone is stalkerish! In fact his biggest fear is that the Templars would take hawke from him, after all.

 

Having a crush implies it's something he gets over with and moves on (like any mature person).  His biggest fear isn't that Hawke will be taken, but that he himself will be taken.  It's all I ever hear him whining about in his conversations.  Even holding a torch for someone isn't stalkerish, if you keep it to yourself.  Continuing to hold a torch after 7 years of being told "I don't want you" and then badmouthing your love while you're doing him a favor is stalkerish.

[Ryriena]

He doesn't say that he doesn't want you, he is saying that he doesn't want too hurt you their is a difference. Holding a torch for her or him after seven years and badmouthing someone isn't stalkerish. Ask a real stalking victim, what they go through, before you call something stalkerish.

[sylvanaerie]

He doesn't say that he doesn't want you, he is saying that he doesn't want too hurt you their is a difference. Holding a torch for her or him after seven years and badmouthing someone isn't stalkerish. Ask a real stalking victim, what they go through, before you call something stalkerish.

 

He doesn't say anything about 'him (Anders) not hurting you'.  I don't see where you're getting that line unless it's a different dialogue altogether.  I'm talking about during the events of his Act 3 companion quest when he calls Fenris 'a wild dog' or says Merrill will betray you for her demon.  He doesn't say anything about the templars or about him hurting you himself.  In fact he postulates that you 'deserve someone better'.  While he doesn't out and out state 'himself' it leaves not much to the imagination there.  

I didn't like it when Wynne badmouthed my warden and her relationships and I don't like it when Anders does it either.  

 

And I know it's not the same as 'stalking' since these are fictional characters.  I don't know how else to describe how creepy I feel his actions are besides the descriptive of 'stalkerish'.  I'm just presenting my perspective on the character's actions.  If you can give me a better descriptive for "someone who refuses to take 'no' for an answer and continues to press himself where he's not wanted" then, please, enlighten me.

 

I'm not even telling you how to perceive him, I'm just stating my feelings on the character.  Just my opinion.  It's all in the perspective of the players who play the game.  

[TheMadHarridan]

I agree that Anders bad-mouthing Hawke's lover is way out of line and kind of disturbing. However, I've always wondered why Anders only does that with Merrill and Fenris but not Isabela. Perhaps he thinks Hawke's relationship with Isabela is just a fling? Or he doesn't find her as threatening as the other two?

[sylvanaerie]

I agree that Anders bad-mouthing Hawke's lover is way out of line and kind of disturbing. However, I've always wondered why Anders only does that with Merrill and Fenris but not Isabela. Perhaps he thinks Hawke's relationship with Isabela is just a fling? Or he doesn't find her as threatening as the other two?

 

I'm thinking because Fenris is so polar opposite and constantly rides his ass about being a mage.  And he sees himself in Merrill (though he seems not able to face that kind of introspection).  That's how I always took it though, as kind of a "if I knew then what I know now" thing.

[Ryriena]

So you think Varric badmouthing Anders or Fenris is cool then? What about Aveline in act two during her quest?

[sylvanaerie]

So you think Varric badmouthing Anders or Fenris is cool then? What about Avline?

When do Varric or Aveline badmouth your romance by insulting them and pressing for themselves as an alternative?  As far as I know, neither of these characters are romanceable.

 

And if you read my post you'd have seen, I also said "I don't like it when Wynne badmouths my warden's LI."  You can assume that anyone else being a busybody and doing so gets negative marks from me, but I don't recall either Varric or Aveline badmouthing Fenris (I never romanced Anders, as I found him far too creepy).  However, if they do badmouth Anders (and I did like him and initiated the romance) then yes, I'd hate that too.