833 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

While your statement may be true, Anders's sexual orientation isn't what makes him a polarizing character.

He just took away the control from players and stood up for what he believed in and some people hate this about him.

An abomation is not someone like Anders or Wayne, whom hold spirts of Faith or Justice within them. Also an abomination is someone, who lets a demon inside of them like Conner, or Huon.

I have stated many times over my opinion of said charcter motives, and how he's not creepy for asking about your LI, which he never did before his second quest. I have also stated both Varric and Aveline have metioned your LI way before Anders has in different quest, although, Aveline does not insult them like say Varric does in his concerned friends quest in act 2. She does in fact insult Isabella but that's mostly because she hates her, so I'll let that one pass in the quest before the cluster fucked Airshock invasion plan. By that time, he was using a distraction tacit moreso than anything.

But for now this is my last post on this matter.

[Althix]

Demons for some, are Angels for others.

[Ryriena]

Demons for some, are Angels for others.

However, I go by the lore of the game instead of my own beliefs on the matter, and they're sprits instead of a demon.

[sylvanaerie]

Merrill will argue with Anders that they are all spirits.  Technically both are right.  They are all spirits, it's just demons have a more vested connection to humanity and our vices.  The more benign spirits (like compassionate ones) tend to leave human beings alone.  Valor seemed pretty happily minding his own business until my Surana bothered him, and Sloth, while a bit of an ass, pretty much seemed too lazy for the chase.  They seem tied to human emotions.

 

Perhaps they really don't have a life outside of human emotions, usually requiring some host/body to interact with physical reality and in part this may be why Anders merged with Justice?  In Awakenings, Justice talks about the human (Kristoff) warden he's inhabiting and the fuzzy memories and emotions tied up with his wife.  But surely, if a spirit is bound to emotions, inhabiting a corpse can't be very satisfying.

 

Mages in Kirkwall definitely panicked and became abominations with startling regularity but they didn't experience an emergence unless something triggered it.  Like the Templar's daughter or that woman who took care of orphans in darktown (I forget their names).  Anders certainly goes all 'nuclear meltdown' whenever his anger/fear is engaged and Justice takes over. 

Spirits seem to thrive on that stuff.

[Althix]

next thing you know spirit of Faith is launching its Holy Crusade against heathens.

[Lulupab]

Merrill will argue with Anders that they are all spirits.  Technically both are right.  They are all spirits, it's just demons have a more vested connection to humanity and our vices.  The more benign spirits (like compassionate ones) tend to leave human beings alone.  Valor seemed pretty happily minding his own business until my Surana bothered him, and Sloth, while a bit of an ass, pretty much seemed too lazy for the chase.  They seem tied to human emotions.
 
Perhaps they really don't have a life outside of human emotions, usually requiring some host/body to interact with physical reality and in part this may be why Anders merged with Justice?  In Awakenings, Justice talks about the human (Kristoff) warden he's inhabiting and the fuzzy memories and emotions tied up with his wife.  But surely, if a spirit is bound to emotions, inhabiting a corpse can't be very satisfying.
 
Mages in Kirkwall definitely panicked and became abominations with startling regularity but they didn't experience an emergence unless something triggered it.  Like the Templar's daughter or that woman who took care of orphans in darktown (I forget their names).  Anders certainly goes all 'nuclear meltdown' whenever his anger/fear is engaged and Justice takes over. 
Spirits seem to thrive on that stuff.

Actually Justice is warped into Vengance when Anders is angry, because his anger affects Justice too. In normal situations its the Justice we first met on awakening. He is also recognized as a spirit by a demon in the fade. I think a demon would know another demon if it saw one. So its safe to claim Justice is a spirit, at least fundamentally.

Also its true, spirits are very connected to emotions.

[atamajakki]

Anders was the only companion I didn't like in Awakening, and actually enjoyed the character he developed into in DA2. He seemed pretty rational right up until the whole "I'm going to become a mass murderer and justify my oppressor's fears entirely" thing. I stabbed him without hesitation.

It's a shame about Justice, though. I adored him in Awakening and the jump from "I am a chivalrous spirit who is intensely curious about the world of flesh and men" to "I am a murderhate spirit" was horribly jarring.

[Lady_Intimidator]

Nope. He was kinda amusing in DAA, but in DA2 I loathed him. And actually almost never ever had him in my party. But for the few missioned where he was a must have, either for plot, or for logical reasons

[Dutchess]

Actually Justice is warped into Vengance when Anders is angry, because his anger affects Justice too. In normal situations its the Justice we first met on awakening. He is also recognized as a spirit by a demon in the fade. I think a demon would know another demon if it saw one. So its safe to claim Justice is a spirit, at least fundamentally.

Also its true, spirits are very connected to emotions.

 

No, he's not. In his first conversation about the merging with Justice Anders says that his anger has changed Justice, not that his anger changes Justice. The merging changed both Anders and Justice permanently. Anders does not embody Justice. If you look at his approval sheet for DA2, nearly everything that earns you points with him deals with mages and magic (or himself, as in being nice/mean to him). He is always focused on that one issue that is important to him, the issue he has a personal connection to. He's Vengeance.

 

If he was truly Justice when calm, then why does he not give you rivalry for letting slavers go free, for instance? Is it Justice to allow those who earn gold by stealing the freedom of others to go on their merry way? He would not cheer on handing Fenris back to Danarius. He was not enraged then, and selling someone into slavery does not represent justice in any way. Awakening Justice would have flipped out. 

He also does not disapprove of killing Javaris (the annoying dwarf from Blackpowder Courtesy). Stupid as that dwarf might have been, I would hardly call it justice that you kill him. Again, this sort of thing would have earned you disapproval from Awakening Justice.

[Althix]

as valid as your points are, however there are many plot and logical holes in DA2.

 

I mean reference to apporoval table might be a good idea, but again - Fenris and a slave girl is a good example of logical holes in the game.

[Xilizhra]

No, he's not. In his first conversation about the merging with Justice Anders says that his anger has changed Justice, not that his anger changes Justice. The merging changed both Anders and Justice permanently. Anders does not embody Justice. If you look at his approval sheet for DA2, nearly everything that earns you points with him deals with mages and magic (or himself, as in being nice/mean to him). He is always focused on that one issue that is important to him, the issue he has a personal connection to. He's Vengeance.

 

If he was truly Justice when calm, then why does he not give you rivalry for letting slavers go free, for instance? Is it Justice to allow those who earn gold by stealing the freedom of others to go on their merry way? He would not cheer on handing Fenris back to Danarius. He was not enraged then, and selling someone into slavery does not represent justice in any way. Awakening Justice would have flipped out. 

He also does not disapprove of killing Javaris (the annoying dwarf from Blackpowder Courtesy). Stupid as that dwarf might have been, I would hardly call it justice that you kill him. Again, this sort of thing would have earned you disapproval from Awakening Justice.

A. because the approval system is imperfect (Fenris is the only one who gains rivalry for letting slavers go free, despite no one else liking slavery) and B, in the latter case, because Fenris is an avowed enemy of Justice, both as a spirit and as a concept. Fenris' philosophy amounts roughly to just another form of slavery advocacy, so Fenris and Danarius are little different by the spirit's reckoning.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Justice was never good to begin with, so arguing whether he's demonic or not is arguing semantics.

 

 

The Dalish said it best: there's no such thing as a good spirit.

[Ryriena]

Merrill will argue with Anders that they are all spirits. Technically both are right. They are all spirits, it's just demons have a more vested connection to humanity and our vices. The more benign spirits (like compassionate ones) tend to leave human beings alone. Valor seemed pretty happily minding his own business until my Surana bothered him, and Sloth, while a bit of an ass, pretty much seemed too lazy for the chase. They seem tied to human emotions.

Perhaps they really don't have a life outside of human emotions, usually requiring some host/body to interact with physical reality and in part this may be why Anders merged with Justice? In Awakenings, Justice talks about the human (Kristoff) warden he's inhabiting and the fuzzy memories and emotions tied up with his wife. But surely, if a spirit is bound to emotions, inhabiting a corpse can't be very satisfying.

Mages in Kirkwall definitely panicked and became abominations with startling regularity but they didn't experience an emergence unless something triggered it. Like the Templar's daughter or that woman who took care of orphans in darktown (I forget their names). Anders certainly goes all 'nuclear meltdown' whenever his anger/fear is engaged and Justice takes over.
Spirits seem to thrive on that stuff.

I also think the nuclear meltdown with demons somehow coming out when panicked is a bit of a rewrite of lore. Because I don't remember that in part metioned in the codex DAO or DA:A, though, their is that one quest with the desire demon in Broken Cricle that could prove your point. They should have said something about The Thin Veil, but that also wouldn't explain, why they can become demons by panicking for one second in DA2. When, in DAO you actually had to make a deal with said demon too become an abomination.

[Dutchess]

You earn friendship with Aveline when you kill the slavers in Darktown for the quest Wayward Son. Also when you give Orana a job.

Sebastian: rivalry when you offer to make a deal with the slavers who ambush you when you have Fenris in your party.

Isabela: friendship when you give Orana coin. 

 

If friendship/rivalry can't be spared, Anders should have voiced doubts or dislike for decisions that seem to favor injustice. He does not hint at anything like that, either in points or in dialogue. Meaning he does not give a damn.

[Ryriena]

I don't remember ever reciving friendship points for killing the slavers from Aveline. I remember gaining rivraly, but I could be thinking of another quest.

Again using the firendship rivraly as your argument is lame, since that thing was pretty bugged to begin with, after all.

[Lulupab]

No, he's not. In his first conversation about the merging with Justice Anders says that his anger has changed Justice, not that his anger changes Justice. The merging changed both Anders and Justice permanently. Anders does not embody Justice. If you look at his approval sheet for DA2, nearly everything that earns you points with him deals with mages and magic (or himself, as in being nice/mean to him). He is always focused on that one issue that is important to him, the issue he has a personal connection to. He's Vengeance.
 
If he was truly Justice when calm, then why does he not give you rivalry for letting slavers go free, for instance? Is it Justice to allow those who earn gold by stealing the freedom of others to go on their merry way? He would not cheer on handing Fenris back to Danarius. He was not enraged then, and selling someone into slavery does not represent justice in any way. Awakening Justice would have flipped out. 
He also does not disapprove of killing Javaris (the annoying dwarf from Blackpowder Courtesy). Stupid as that dwarf might have been, I would hardly call it justice that you kill him. Again, this sort of thing would have earned you disapproval from Awakening Justice.

You rely on something TOTALLY unreliable, the approval system. You need to look at facts. Justice is able to express his thoughts through Anders and he is not doing anything Vengeance would do while Anders is not angry. He is exactly like his awakening self, always taking notice of injustice done to mages because even in Awakening he recognizes that is the biggest one in Thedas. Now if you want to challenge this I have no problem but the obvious fact is its the Justice from awakening. Our encounter with him in the fade further proves this. Its Justice who we talk to in the fade and he is completely focused on saving Feynriel. Oh and some patches have changed approvals, meaning some additional approvals were added or some were removed. They are part of gameplay not lore.

 

Also when Anders is calm Justice does not have much control therefore cannot do anything about it. Maybe he disapproved of something but all he can do is to tell it to Anders and maybe he just ignores it. Vengeance is just angry Justice. Anders' anger causes him to lose himself, he totally passes out when he sees Karl as Tranquil. he is like "NOOOOOO" passes out, then blue flames rises and Justice is very angry and not himself anymore, just like anders. Enraged he turns into a creature of Vengeance who is no longer Justice. Spirits are directly affected by their host's emotions.

[sylvanaerie]

You rely on something TOTALLY unreliable, the approval system. You need to look at facts. Justice is able to express his thoughts through Anders and he is not doing anything Vengeance would do while Anders is not angry. He is exactly like his awakening self, always taking notice of injustice done to mages because even in Awakening he recognizes that is the biggest one in Thedas. Now if you want to challenge this I have no problem but the obvious fact is its the Justice from awakening. Our encounter with him in the fade further proves this. Its Justice who we talk to in the fade and he is completely focused on saving Feynriel. Oh and some patches have changed approvals, meaning some additional approvals were added or some were removed. They are part of gameplay not lore.

 

Also when Anders is calm Justice does not have much control therefore cannot do anything about it. Maybe he disapproved of something but all he can do is to tell it to Anders and maybe he just ignores it. Vengeance is just angry Justice. Anders' anger causes him to lose himself, he totally passes out when he sees Karl as Tranquil. he is like "NOOOOOO" passes out, then blue flames rises and Justice is very angry and not himself anymore, just like anders. Enraged he turns into a creature of Vengeance who is no longer Justice. Spirits are directly affected by their host's emotions.

 

This is how I perceived it.  Doesn't give Anders a 'get out of jail free' card from me, but yea, I always saw it as Justice morphing into an enraged spirit/demon, whatever word you want to apply to what he is, reacting to Anders' mindset at the moment.  Or Grace or the Templar's Daughter or that woman you track down in Darktown.  Just chillin' and skin riding until their trigger turns them "on". 

 

I think Merrill and the Dalish have the right of it.  There are no demons, just spirits, tied for good or ill to emotions.  Demon is a term humans use to explain something extremely negative about the being.  I've seen some pretty passive or downright negotiable demons (Sloth in the mage origin or the Desire Demon playing with the templar in the Broken Circle) and some pretty enraged spirits (Justice when riled).   Which doesn't mean all spirits are reasonable (emotions aren't about reason), and why I think Merrill is playing with fire blindfolded but *shrug* even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I am reminded of the first scene we encounter Justice, standing outside the Baroness/Pride Demon's lair and yelling at her.  Spirits are all about the 'emotions' it seems.

 

Unfortunately Anders reserves his pity for mages only.  This becomes more and more prevalent the more depressed he gets as time goes by.  Doesn't mean he gets a 'get out of jail free' card from me even then.  Those of my Hawkes who didn't outright hate him and mercy killed him still felt he was out of control and a danger to himself and anyone else around him.  Or hell at a distance even.  He was just out of control.

[Loup Blanc]

I hate Anders. Then again I hate Fenris, strongly dislike Isabela and moderately dislike Merrill. As a matter of fact, I didn't like any companion in DA2. Except Varric.

[whanzephruseke]

I actually have a theory that Justice has always been a spirit of vengeance.  Before he left the Fade, his only experiences with the concept of justice were through the dreams of mortals, and the most common type of dream I can think of that is related to the theme of "justice" would be a revenge fantasy.

 

As for mages in Kirkwall being more prone to becoming abominations, I would suggest reading the Enigma of Kirkwall codices.

[alorine]

I love Anders, he's my favourite character in DA series and I approve everything he did for my personal reasons. I'm still dissapointed there wasn't an option to support his actions and or at least not to judge him.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I disliked Anders. Not so much because he blew up the Chantry and started a war, but because I had to listen to him whining about templars for seven years before he did it.

[LucienKyle]

I actually have a theory that Justice has always been a spirit of vengeance.  Before he left the Fade, his only experiences with the concept of justice were through the dreams of mortals, and the most common type of dream I can think of that is related to the theme of "justice" would be a revenge fantasy.

 

As for mages in Kirkwall being more prone to becoming abominations, I would suggest reading the Enigma of Kirkwall codices.

Interesting assumption, fade is a world dominated by emotion instead of physical laws and spirits are defined by their emotion types ,spirit is not so stable as emotion can change

 

besides,sometimes justice means to make bad guys pay for what they have done, when it comes fiercely,it is the same thing as vengeance 

[Annarl]

I didn't like the DA II Anders as much as Awakenings Anders.  But he does have a large fan base.

[NausiKa7782]

Xilizhra, on 28 Sept 2014 - 01:10 AM, said:

Which instances of reform are you thinking about?

By the way, never use "Dark Ages" around historians; they'll either feel ill or want to hit you. It's a Renaissance-era anti-Catholic fabrication of Protestants who wanted to look completely superior to their forbears.

 

 

Hello Xilizhra!

I know it's been almost a week but I couldn't find the time to make this reply even if I follow this topic since the first day

Hope we can say "better late than never"...

It's nice to see an interest in history on this forum!    

 

Let's begin

I am a gamer, aye that’s for sure. First and foremost.

 

But it happens I am also a scholar  and have a very different point of view than the one you exposed there. That is I am not at all shocked when Lulupab uses the problematic phrase "Dark Ages".

In history, as in everything, one needs to go back in time to have a full overview.

 

Because, before the Renaissance, before Luther and Calvin, even before the Middle Ages there was Antiquity, summit of civilization. And before the Great Schism that ended up with the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches being created, the Roman Empire, the siege of which had been moved to Constantinople, became Christian in the 5th century A.D. The centuries that followed saw imperial edit upon imperial edit taken against the Greeks (addressed as the Gentiles), their religion and above all their culture, sciences, letters and art that were so at odds with the embryonary judeochristianism. The Fathers of the church even put anathemas—implying penalty of death—on whoever worshiped the ancient gods, attended to the old schools. They closed the Academy, ended the Olympics and banned the obscene practice of sport, closed all the scientific schools, the sanctuaries, even those of Asclepius that were hospitals. It was a slaughter, nearly a genocide to impose the God of love. The Protestants are only an aftermath.      

    

I know too well what you are talking about, this denial of medieval obscurantism. I’m sure keeping people so ignorant that they couldn't read the Bible is indeed a great intellectual achievement. 

BUT, when did we start to question the world again for good? The exact year is 1453, year of the fall of Byzantium, one could also go back to the council of Florence (1437-39) but this is really it. And WHY? Because all that remained of our culture was there, that it was still taught to some extend and that the scholars began to flock in the Italian courts bringing with them treasures of knowledge. They were avidly sought after as "VIP mercenary translators" should I say, and teachers also.

So, well, I no doubt stand a more classical or démodée position, elegiac you may say, but these are my researches, my beliefs, even if I know that it is not well seen to talk this way nowadays.

Never forget the winners write history. But truth always finds its way.

 

 

My warmest thanks go to Lulupab for having given me an opportunity of displaying a scrap of my extensive encyclopedic knowledge the acme of which....Was I writing, oh sorry  . 

I could speak for hours developing each aspect to its full extend but this is neither the place nor the time.

 

Well we are here because we are all moved  by a common drive to play and talk of our favorite games . So let’s do it!

[NausiKa7782]

That being said, I like Anders as a character and...well.. I like Fenris too!!

It feels somehow odd this dichotomy even exists. Odd but interesting. Actually such hatred and incompatibility is found in games between loyal and chaotic characters, or based on the good /evil axis. The best paradigm being LG vs. CE (see Casavir/Bishop in NWN2 or Alistair/Morrigan).

The trick here is that there is not such firmly defined difference between them which in the end makes the situation even more realistic perhaps.

I am planning on making a post one day about the moral alignment of the characters.
I think they have more common points they want to admit, see for instance the dialogue when Anders point to Fenris that since he’s been  a slave he should sympathize with the oppression the mages are going under. Each sees the straw in the other's eye while none can throw the first stone.
They see their respective fears of failures in one another's progression because both have a set goal from the start. Fenris wants to escape bondage from Danarius while Anders (with Justice) wants to free the mages.  Both had very hard experiences that they cannot manage to surmount.

This situation has made them isolationists thinking that none in the world can understand their choices or has suffered so much.
The main trait that binds them in my opinion is that they accepted to make a great sacrifice in order to save and protect those who are dear to them and in each case it went astray. This is the cause of their bitterness. 

These irreversible acts touched the very integrity of their body and soul.