217 réponses à ce sujet

[pablosplinter]

I stopped recruiting him after a while. Make of that what you will.

Same here. Better game.

[VikingDream]

Guys a moaning git should be given back to the magesters to suffer lol 

[kimgoold]

How can anyone sell the poor slave? he's come from a society that rapes, tortures and kills just for laughs and you wonder why he's bitter? The voice acting is my favourite after Varric. My two favourite characters in game actually, then Aveline, Isabela and Carver. Anders in a pain and a hypocrite, especially when he complains to hawke you need someone who doesn't let one bad experience colour his entire life .... really from you who goes on and on about templars and injustice until I'd love nothing better than to sell him to the damn tevinters.

[kimgoold]

Haven't  played Skyrim yet, sorry to hear the VA is overused to point it drives some players  bonkers. Thanks for the heads up.

[TheMadHarridan]

Gideon Emery's voice is no more overused in Skyrim than any other voicetype shared by multiple characters. But I adore his voice, and every time I hear someone in Skyrim that has it, I usually squeal, "Fenris!" My husband thinks I'm nuts.

[Dutchess]

Gideon Emery's voice is no more overused in Skyrim than any other voicetype shared by multiple characters. But I adore his voice, and every time I hear someone in Skyrim that has it, I usually squeal, "Fenris!" My husband thinks I'm nuts.

 

Agreed. His voice is the best part of him.

[TheMakergavemeswag]

I hate him and it's not because of him hating mages I understand why he hates them but he never shuts the **** up about it he is annoying and i'm glad he's dead in my cannon.

[kimgoold]

Wow harsh, but then I feel the same about how Anders never shuts the hell up so I cant talk.

[Hair Serious Business]

How do I see Fenris...should I be nice or blunt(real)?Let's try nice first:He is good-looking,not nearly boring as Sebastian,has good VO and puppy eyes.

Now let's try with my blunt opinon over him:

He is best looking character in DA2 but he has 2nd place of most annoying one as well(Sebastian is in 1st place).I can't romance him because I simply wish to beat the crap out him.Why?Here are reasons...every blasted conversation with him I had was "Mages blah blah blah kill kill blah blah blah I suffered most in this world no one knows what suffering is besides me blah blah blame mages again blah blah".Yes he was slave and yes that must have caused trauma!But hey does this give him complete right to act as only one that is suffered?He makes his problems most biggest ones and wants of everyone to understand that...but if someone else has problems like Hawke that lost her/his father/sister/brother/mothe,Anders that was mistreated by templars plus had his friend Karl

Spoiler

that was his lover

made Tranquil by templars and pretty much every companion and everyone else that has any problems Fenris goes with classical attitude "You were no slave so no big deal" or "Blame mages" or "You call that problems?I'm only one that has right to have problems and suffer so shut up".So if I met person like him irl no matter how good damn he looked like I would stay away from that person plus I would find a tree more pleasing to talk to then some person as this.

So no I don't like Fenris,he is not "Sebastian-annoying" but he is pretty close...so his good-looks and may work on fangirls but on this girl your charisma and pleasent company is what it works so his puppy-eyes don't work on me one bit.

[birdmannavy]

Hello, I have to stand up for Merrill.  She is, bar none, my favorite DA2 character.

 

Fenris, however, could do with a stronger curve to his character arc.  Fine, you get to change him with a rivalmance, yippee, but to me he is a good character at his base, a springboard for an arc that for many of our playthroughs doesn't exist.

 

Furthermore, on this topic I have seen more support for his character from men than from women.  Men are more outward complainers and are also less likely to be sympathetic to others.  That Fenris has "earned" the right to be self centered by his suffering must be like catnip to men who wish also to be justified in their self centered complaining.

 

Anders, we can say, feels the way he does because of empathy for others but Fenris seems mostly to be concerned with the airing out of  his own grievances.  He stands up for non mage slaves, but only in as much as it allows him to wave his own flag of suffering.  Where Anders talks about the suffering of others and works to heal, Fenris is fixated on the suffering of Fenris and reminds people of it constantly as though they weren't already on his side.  I see Anders giving a lot of middle ground and I seriously doubt that he is for the Tevinter imperium.  Anders is looking for Fenris to agree about something, but Fenris is a fanatic.  Surely he is capable of helping in a positive way rather than brooding, of healing rather than airing out his own wounds.

 

Additionally, that Fenris cares about the Hawkes makes him a double hypocrite:  Does he really think that other mages don't have worthy friends?

 

All of this is not to say that I wish Fenris was out of the game, I have him in my party quite frequently because I think that he is an excellent character for moral and psychological pondering.  I also love his character design, white hair and all.  It baffles me a little that people would complain about this considering the wild options for Hawke customization.  I, for one, certainly don't play videogames to see some boring Western ideal of realism represented.  When I want real, I turn off the game console.  (I will also give a ditto to Fenris having a great voice.  Overall, the voice work and dialogue in DA2 are superb.)

 

Yet I do not wish to fly an Anders flag.  Though I like DA2 for the Anders dilemma, I would prefer he not be so forced on the player.  Plus, his fanatical act of terror seemed super bazaro;  I could have done with a  couple of more acts in the game and a deeper plunge into madness on Anders's part to justify such a dramatic turn.  At least the Grand Cleric should have been allowed to intervene.  Plots are at their best when things seem to be at the breaking point for a long time and are held in fragility by one small miracle after another.  However, I find that most videogames aren't able to wrap their stories up very well.  In my only full playthrough I played as the biggest jerk that I could, playing all sides against each other and having a confusing mix of rivalry and friendship points with all characters, and helped the Templars at the end.  I was sooo disappointed that Anders, therefore, wasn't the final boss, but Meredith was instead

[Jerkules17]

I feel bad for him,but man was he such a pain he was pretty much the templar version of Anders. Still I like his voice,I knew I heard his voice in Skyrim as some npc,and in Diablo 3 as the male crusader.

[Dutchess]

How do I see Fenris...should I be nice or blunt(real)?Let's try nice first:He is good-looking,not nearly boring as Sebastian,has good VO and puppy eyes.

Now let's try with my blunt opinon over him:

He is best looking character in DA2 but he has 2nd place of most annoying one as well(Sebastian is in 1st place).I can't romance him because I simply wish to beat the crap out him.Why?Here are reasons...every blasted conversation with him I had was "Mages blah blah blah kill kill blah blah blah I suffered most in this world no one knows what suffering is besides me blah blah blame mages again blah blah".

 

I never understand this hyperbole for Fenris. He never rants about how all mages should be killed. He's pro Circle, not pro Right of Annulment or mass execution.

 

Yes he was slave and yes that must have caused trauma!But hey does this give him complete right to act as only one that is suffered?He makes his problems most biggest ones and wants of everyone to understand that...but if someone else has problems like Hawke that lost her/his father/sister/brother/mothe,Anders that was mistreated by templars plus had his friend Karl

Spoiler

that was his lover

made Tranquil by templars and pretty much every companion and everyone else that has any problems Fenris goes with classical attitude "You were no slave so no big deal" or "Blame mages" or "You call that problems?I'm only one that has right to have problems and suffer so shut up".

 

Please point me to the dialogue where Fenris dismisses other people's problems. If romanced, he goes to comfort Hawke after Leandra dies. Regardless of romance, when you click on him after All That Remains he'll say "I can't imagine what it's like to lose your family. Anything I could say would be insufficient. I'm sorry." He clearly shows sympathy here and does not turn Quentin the Crazy Mage into another argument for why mages should be locked up. Anders, on the other hand, can't let another chance go to somehow make the thing about mages: "I'm sorry about your mother, Hawke. I can't believe any mage would do such a thing" (paraphrased). He can't believe a mage would do something like that. Not just anyone, no, it has to be narrowed down to mages because in Anders' mind all mages are innocent and should be able to roam free.

Anyway, I don't really see support for your claim that Fenris values his personal problems above everything else, or at least no more than any of the other companions. Merrill is obsessed with her mirror, Isabela is out for herself to find the tome of Koslun and will run away with it if it suits her, Anders only thinks of the mages. 

 

 

Anders, we can say, feels the way he does because of empathy for others but Fenris seems mostly to be concerned with the airing out of  his own grievances.  He stands up for non mage slaves, but only in as much as it allows him to wave his own flag of suffering.  Where Anders talks about the suffering of others and works to heal, Fenris is fixated on the suffering of Fenris and reminds people of it constantly as though they weren't already on his side.  I see Anders giving a lot of middle ground and I seriously doubt that he is for the Tevinter imperium.  Anders is looking for Fenris to agree about something, but Fenris is a fanatic.  Surely he is capable of helping in a positive way rather than brooding, of healing rather than airing out his own wounds.

 

Anders giving a lot of middle ground? My experience is the exact opposite. Anders is the extremist here. He blows up the Chantry because he wants no compromise, no middle ground. He does want a Tevinter Imperium, because he refuses to believe mages are truly capable of being as bad as the magisters: "I have yet to meet a mage who wants to rule anything". Anders wants all mages to be free and Fenris has seen what this freedom will turn into. Neither will move to more common ground from their position, but I feel Anders is the more extreme here. He blames all the corrupting powers mages can wield on the templars and acts like blood magic and demonic possession would no longer be an issue if mages are not watched. It's not strange then that Fenris does not agree with Anders and will not change his stance. Anders may claim to move out of empathy for all mages but ultimately he's selfish. He decides what's best, he decides what needs to happen and everyone else has to deal with it. I didn't see any happy mages when he blew up the Chantry to provoke Meredith.

 

Fenris does not only stand up for non-mage slaves. He happily kills Danzig, the man who sold Feynriel into slavery, and he forces you to fight the slavers holding Feynriel captive. There's also some banter between him and Aveline about Fenris tipping off the guard about slaver activity and Aveline informing they "sadly" never made it to prison. So he does do something, even though it may be small. 

 

You're right Fenris' way of dealing with his situation is not ideal. His problem is that he cannot move on and heal as long as Danarius is alive. As long as his former master is out there Fenris lives in fear his freedom will some day come to an end. Why bother to build a life and try to be happy when Danarius can swoop in any time and tear it all down? When rivaled he discovers in Act 3 that he himself is responsible for the situation is still in after Danarius' death. A squatted mansion, hardly any friends, not much of a job. So, yeah, I wouldn't claim Fenris is the perfect coper, but he does try. If you have Sebastian their banter will indicate Fenris is finding his faith in the Maker again. I think that's a nice touch.

 

Additionally, that Fenris cares about the Hawkes makes him a double hypocrite:  Does he really think that other mages don't have worthy friends?

 

Why would it make Fenris a hypocrite if he ends up respecting mage Hawke or Bethany when they've proven strong enough to resist temptation? I suggest taking him with you to the Gallows in Act 1. In his conversation about the Circle that triggers then he is able to express his views quite reasonably. He states he has no doubt some of the magisters are honorable men with good intentions, but the problem is that even these good people have the potential to turn to dark powers when pressed. That's not because they're evil and all mages are power hungry slavers, but because they're human/elven. When backed into a corner good intentions tend to dissolve. Again, Fenris thinks the Circle is needed because it limits both the temptation and the need for mages to resort to demons for more power and it prevents innocent from being harmed if the worst does happen. This is especially needed for weak-willed mages who would be eager to abuse their powers, but even the strong harbor the same potential within. Fenris acknowledges it's not ideal, but when the alternative is the Tevinter Imperium, he'll take it.

[birdmannavy]

Hello, Dutchess.  In response to your response I feel the need to point out that you hadn't read my whole post.  I remarked on the Anders situation of blowing up the chantry.  I described the turn as 'bazaro'.  I don't feel that enough time was given to the story to justify this action.  That the grand cleric isn't at least allowed to have their meeting made the story stunted.  Much more intrigue needed to happen and a much deeper madness needed to be developed in Anders's character for this.

 

But I have listened to a lot of both Anders's and Fenris's dialogue.  I shouldn't have to point out any one line of words to say that Anders often comes off as one bearing an olive branch, one seeking to understand one who cares about what happens to other mages and that Fenris comes across as an immovable bag of past hurt and one who seeks pity only to deny wanting pity.

 

His very tone of voice brings this across.

 

He seems to think that because his past hurt is so great that gives him a license to be an ass.  He airs out his woes but very rarely seeks to find out about the woes of others.  Where Anders is pleading Fenris is brooding.  It is what gives Anders his reputation as a whiner--"Waaaa, why doesn't anybody care!  Can't you see?  O, pretty please stop hurting us!"  But Fenris despises such cloying pleas.  He instead puts on tough guy airs.

 

I would say that the whole demon possession nonsense wasn't very good writing to begin with.  The only way that I am able to swallow the whole mage issue is by imagining an alternate universe where mages are feared because of their power rather than for turning into ugly blobs of poop.

 

I digress.

 

On your other point, I would hope that you would agree that a person accepting an apostate mage as a friend and NOT turning them in while never giving the slightest question about weather others should be turned in ABSOLUTELY makes him a hypocrite.  Once again, does he really think that other mages haven't "Proven strong enough to resist temptation" to other people?  Or does everyone have to prove themselves to him first?  If so, then he is all booked up.  He even wants a Templar to be fired as a 'precaution'.  Did he give the Templar the time to prove his strength that he gives Hawke?  No.  This makes Fenris as bad as Joseph McCarthy.

 

And if Fenris is McCarthy then Anders is (pre chantry boom) Rodney King--"Can't we all just get along?".  Put a different way, Anders seems nice and comes across as nice but Fenris comes across as an ass and the only justification for this is past trauma.  He may have reasoned arguments, but at his heart Fenris is just a whipped and resentful person who is lucky to have the friends that he has.

[renfrees]

Anders seems nice and comes across as nice? I'm not sure if we played the same game, but in mine Anders comes as venomous and spiteful or even outright hateful towards basically every companion, except Varric and Bethany. More than that - he puts mages above everyone else, like they're some supreme race and should be given the benefit of the doubt just because they're mages.

[birdmannavy]

Hello, renfrees.  I just got done listening to a line of dialogue from Anders about how surprised he is at the treatment of mages among the Qunari and how they had it even worse than they did.  If you don't like the word nice then I shall use a different adjective: sad.  He seems quite often on the verge of tears.  He genuinely wants other people, especially Fenris, to care about the mage plight.

 

Weather or not Fenris is right or Anders is right is a completely different matter and not something I have argued about.

 

If it helps you at all, the only time I have Anders in my party is when I am playing Hawk as a selfish murdering A-hole.  I delight in torturing Anders.  When I play a chaotic good character I never have Anders in my party because I mostly can't stand him.  Also, when being evil, I use the mage class, I just love being an apostate who shows no mercy to other apostates.  Fenris and Anders are essential party members for such a character.

 

The delusion that if something bad is said about Fenris then it must mean that someone loves Anders and hates Fenris is ongoing and silly.  The opposite is also true.  It is silly to say that those who have bad things to say about Anders are Templar fanatics and lovers of Fenris.  It is as bad as saying "Sony sucks and Microsoft rules!"  Or "Microsoft sucks and Sony rules!"  Or even still "Consoles suck and PC rules!"

 

If some of us have reasoned critiques, however, it doesn't mean that we are "all for" or "all against" a thing.  I have good and bad to say about Anders and Fenris, a lot of us do.  Besides, Fenris invites this sort of criticism; he is the sort of emo, punk, anime badass who sparks people's anger but says to them "eff you!"  It is part of the appeal of Fenris, I would think that his true fans would agree.

[Dutchess]

I read your entire post. I pretty much agree with the last part, so there was no reason to quote it too. It doesn't change that I don't share your view of Anders constantly trying to find middle ground with those who disagree with him. Even if you disregard his act of terrorism he makes it clear the only acceptable outcome for him is freedom for all mages. No Circle, no templars. He doesn't want a compromise and will never consider one. When the Tevinter Imperium gets brought up he tries to find an excuse for the magisters' behavior so it can be dismissed as a few extreme cases not representative of other free mages. 

 

If you believe Anders keeps extending the olive branch, it should not be hard to give an example of banter/dialogue in which he does that. Again, I don't see it. If you look at the banters initiated by Anders that are about mages:

Anders: You ever going to stop harping on the mages here?

 

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.

 

Anders: Do you still support the Knight-Commander?

 

Anders: By now, you must see what an injustice the templars are.

(Source: http://dragonage.wik...Fenris/Dialogue)

 

That all carries a pretty judgmental tone and they all proceed in the same ways. Either Anders tries to get Fenris to do a 180 degree turn on his position about mage freedom or he dismisses the bad examples of mages as exceptions and something not worthy of changing his own stance. If you would claim that Fenris can act overly hostile towards Merrill I would agree with you, but Anders is at least as bad as Fenris. Imo, he's worse. In banter with other companions Anders is the one who often brings up the topic of mage freedom and acts spiteful to those who don't fully support him. Fenris gets along well with Aveline, Isabela, Sebastian, Bethany and Varric and unlike what you say his conversations with these do not revolve around him trying to evoke pity. 

 

It's not up to Fenris to pass judgment on every mage and know for certain whether they're strong enough, no. Which is why it's better to be safe than sorry and send them to the Circle to be watched. Fenris doesn't turn Hawke in because he feels he owes Hawke after having helped him against the slavers, and he refuses to turn mage companions in out of loyalty to Hawke. Free mages = (potential) magisters to him, so his exceptions are unlikely to stretch any further than his one positive experience. Kirkwall does give him an awful lot of opportunities to go "it's always the same". He is extremely wary of mage Hawke at first too. If not for the aid Hawke offered him I doubt Fenris would have decided to give him/her a chance either. So basically the circumstances have forced him to open his eyes a bit. But again that doesn't change much in the end. Fenris is already aware of strong mages existing in Tevinter as well, but eventually those gets pushed on a darker path too or they end up dead or enslaved. It's not just about being a good and strong person yourself. That's the problem. 

 

There was a high chance Keran was possessed by a demon without knowing it. That's an extremely dangerous situation. If the demon comes out when everyone least expects it, it could cause a lot of harm. Fenris specifically mentions potential victims when you need to decide whether Keran should keep his position. Sometimes the risk is too great to just give the benefit of the doubt. 

 

I don't think anyone is accusing you of hating Fenris or loving Anders. Your opinions are your own. That doesn't mean I or anyone else can disagree with some of the arguments you make to support said opinions.

[Rawgrim]

Can't stand Fenris. Felt like some emo anime character copied and pasted in from a jrpg.

[luism]

On my Mage play through I gave link I mean fern is back to his master. I never felt so terrible about a decision in a video game not even when I killed Lilliana and wynne on origins I was lol after that decision idk why.

I made it up to him in my next play through and made him my bro. But wow that was a really dirty thing to do.

[Ashevajak]

Great voice acting.  Hell, I'm a straight male and I could listen to Fenris talking all day long.

 

Personality wise, a bit more troubling.  Fenris has some problems with severe hypocrisy and revenge issues.  He's the anti-Anders, when it comes to the Mages and Templars issue, with very little nuance for understanding the opposing point of view.  I'd actually say Anders is a bit more nuanced than he is...which given he's possessed by a spirit of Justice with no concept of time, is saying something.  I myself am slightly pro-mage, so maybe I have a little more sympathy with Anders here, but Fenris only seems to accept two possible outcomes - either mages must be oppressed, or everyone else will be oppressed by them.  No gray area, no compromises.  I'm not a fan of that sort of worldview, no matter the particular beliefs (which, incidentally, made DA2 such an awesome yet annoying game - it was all about extreme beliefs crowding out moderates and crushing them).

 

Combat wise, he's pretty awesome.  A bit lacking in the early game, but once you get him properly levelled up and with the right talents, he is beastly.  Like a perfect mix of Templar, Beserker and Reaver. 

[Aren]

Fenris love him,  i want to go with him on tevinter to kill all the magisters master.

[Bad King]

His views on mages are crude (but somewhat understandable considering his years of abuse at the hands of mages), but he is otherwise a decent guy who cares about protecting the vulnerable and freeing the enslaved.

[uzivatel]

My favourite rivalry in DA2.