142 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

Double post ugh

[Ryriena]

I do agree with Xilzna that her dalish identity could never be removed from her just because her clan is dead. Look at Valane for an example her clan was killed by the darkspawn in DA:A and chose to join with the Wardens in avenge their deaths. She choice too destory the thing that caused her clans death even thought she caused their deaths.

[Jagokoz]

I think what I meant to say by removing her Dalish Identity is that she was removed from the Dalish. I identify as an American and will not lose that living in another country for a short time, but to survive for several years I would have to force myself to change and adapt to new cultures, practices and occupations in the new place I am living. Yes Merril may maintain a semblance of her culture but she is not Dalish in the same way that others in her clan are.

 

She is now a city elf. Living in the city, among humans. Until she returns she can no longer identify with that in all truths. Her clan has ostracized her with the exception of her keeper so there is no reinforcement of her cultural ideals. She is alone in a new world apart from Hawke, Isabella and Varric (the others barely tolerate her). In this was she has lost her Dalish identity. 

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Hazegurl]

I thought she was adorable, but she was....naive. And like Avelline said "stupid." She means well, but her actions are often very dangerous.

Merril was alright but I never found her too interesting. I would say she was the least interesting. However, Merril was much smarter in her dealings with demons than Anders. He was a moron who allowed himself to be possessed. I loved the banter of Merril calling him out on his own naivety.

[Bigdoser]

Merril melted my aggressive hawke well I was not an a hole but I was forward to the point did not pick red for the sake of it but it was my dominant personality. She still melted me and what she says sometimes. Eh honestly she was the only person my Hawke could probably relax around friend or romancing. 

[Who Knows]

Merril was alright but I never found her too interesting. I would say she was the least interesting. However, Merril was much smarter in her dealings with demons than Anders. He was a moron who allowed himself to be possessed. I loved the banter of Merril calling him out on his own naivety.

Though, going up Sundermount for help from the demon for the Merrill was still very foolish.

[Ryriena]

Though, going up Sundermount for help from the demon for the Merrill was still very foolish.

That would would allow her to be posses by a real demon unlike Justice whom is a spirit.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I'm positive that they were, given what Merrill says about feeling inexplicably forced to agree.

 

I am positive that they weren't, seeing as the demons in DA:O were unable to fool Morrigan, Sten, or the Warden, and Caress/Wryme can't do it to Hawke or certain other companions. Merrill simply does not grasp her own feeble-mindedness.

[Who Knows]

Demons do both. They trick you and/or force you. Either way, given that other people are still able to defend their minds in the fade (as mentioned, Morrigan, Sten and Warden) but Merrill couldn't, I can't say that I would trust Merrill with blood magic. She also gets tricked by possessed Marethari in her act 3 quest - if you don't mention that Marethari needs to die for the demon to die, Merrill gets stabbed.

 

The problem for me is withholding the arulin'holme is creepy and controlling, and AFAIK I know that is the only way to get onto the "rivalry" path.

[TEWR]

Morrigan was raised by Flemeth. Ultimately that grants her a lot of advantages over other mages because Flemeth isn't normal. To say nothing of how the demon couldn't even really pull off a convincing Flemeth, despite the illusion (a loving mother) being everything Morrigan wanted.

 

The Warden is dependent on whether or not you accept "Duncan's" talk, though I honestly found that the person the Warden saw in the Fade being  Duncan to be a bit.... strange. And besides, the Warden can also be an idiot who thinks letting a talking mouse into their body is a good idea.

 

No a Cousland wouldn't want to see their family, or a DN their father and brother, or a City Elf their people being given the respect they deserve, and so on. Nope, Duncan.

 

Don't get me wrong I like Duncan and he can certainly be a part of the dream, but for him to be the dream itself is just.... a bit weird.

 

Also Wryme and Caress managed to get everyone they wanted on their side. The thing to note is that they only go after one person, but that one person works.

 

I'm sorry but to say "well they weren't mind-controlled" is to ignore their own experience, particularly if one is going to use other demons as some sort of means to define what other demons will do. Yeah, demons may operate on similar wavelengths, but they all respond differently to certain occasions.

 

How hard is it to understand that a demon will be at its most powerful when it's in its natural domain (the Fade)? And that Pride Demons and Desire Demons can mind control a person? We've seen Desire Demons do this before. Outside of the Fade, it required a Demon to bind her lifeforce to a Templar, because she was no longer in her domain. Being outside of the Fade weakens a Demon's power substantially (per lore and WoG).

 

So how hard is it to believe that the companions, whom all state in one form or another that they were controlled, were actually controlled?

 

She in fact will state "I'll be more careful from now on".

 

Call it an eye-opening experience for her regardless. I've always done so -- not that I believed she couldn't handle these things. Merrill states that she's been careful before in all her dealings with spirits and that this was an obvious mistake.

 

People want to act like she doesn't understand the gravity of her situation, of being a mage. But she does. She knows how little it takes to cause a mage to fall.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 And what's the excuse for Mr. Sten (you think I was not going to notice that you left him out)?

 

Wryme and Caress were not being picky. They were trying to spite Hawke and prove a point, but still they couldn't get every companion to turn on him/her even if they wanted to. What happened to the mind-control there? Why do they never target Hawke, the person with the best chance of not being defeated? He/she may even be there alone. We also already know that Hawke is susceptible to control based of desire (thanks, Idunna) so it's not like the hero's special-snowflake status is applicable either, apparently all the demons would have to do is whip up the image of a pretty lady (Caress in particular ought to excel there).

 

Sorry, but yes, I do find the mind-control argument hard to believe. Impossible, in fact, for me to believe, given all the holes (^above^) that I can poke in it.

 

And then I also can't help but notice that the ones making the argument happen to be Merrill fans (with her being, or likely being, their DA waifu).

 

It's not enough to understand the gravity when the temptation is exists to get the better of their judgment. Adding to that, it is possible and known among the companions that you can make deals with demons and benefit without getting screwed over in any way. Guess which companion advocates accepting the Deep Roads hunger demon's deal? You guessed it: Merrill! You will also get Friendship points from her if you tell Torpor that you'll sell Feynriel's soul to him (the Deep Roads demon I can understand, but this is just crazy).

 

I am not saying demons could not, hypothetically, employ mind-control, but I see 0 evidence of it taking place of it in DA2's Fade quest. None.

[TEWR]

I left out Sten partially because I had other **** to do and was rushing my post and also because my laptop refuses to copy or quote anyone's posts. For what reason, I have no ****** clue. He's fully aware that what he's viewing is a trick but he says that he just doesn't care anymore and wants to be a part of it regardless. It takes the Warden coaxing him into owing his comrades a true victory for him to come out of it.

 

However, for your last line "I see 0 evidence" I have a question for you: What makes you think mind control would be at all apparent to someone not being the victim of it, as it occurs?  

 

As for Torpor, yeah she advocates exactly what you lined out: playing the demon before it plays you. And that's precisely why she gives friendship points for Feynriel in regards to the "soul-selling". At that point, Torpor is offering useful information on Feynriel's mental state and the Demons therein in exchange for being allowed to possess him. What she approves of is saying yes to acquire that information -- as she thinks information should not be discarded so readily just because of where it came from -- but not actually going through with it.

 

she's never actually around when you go through with it. Your point would have merit if she somehow gained friendship upon hearing that Feynriel was possessed.

 

She doesn't hold with people sacrificing others. One of the quotes she says, IIRC dealing with the Quentin arc, was that a person should pay the sacrifice themselves if it means progress rather then have others pay it. I wrote it down on a piece of paper after hearing it one day through exploring companion dialogue but alas, my dumb ass didn't write down what quest it was heard in.

 

Yay for me!

 

And for the "Why not all companions?" question: Maybe mind control gets harder to do the more one tries to apply it. Demons are powerful (lorewise, though gameplay leaves a lot to be desired) but they're not omnipotent. I'd have to argue why people would think mind control isn't the root of it. That assumes that Varric would in fact be a hypocrite and be like his brother, or that Isabela is shallow enough to value a boat over her true depth (that is often ignored). It tries to write the characters as being things they aren't.

 

Why not Hawke? Good question. But then, when has Bioware considered to tempt the PC with such things? That would necessitate them giving more recognition to these types of things and exploring how a mage might have to contend with demons. But noooo, they don't do that. Partially I think that's because certain segments of the fandom would find it ruins their power fantasy and complain about it, but also because I don't think Bioware particularly cares about it.

 

Why not Hawke? I can't answer that. Though doing something to spite Hawke and mind control a companion are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps the demon wants Hawke's guilt to rise, feeling that if the companion betrayed him/her, might work to its advantage. Basically, mind control the companion to manipulate Hawke.

 

That's stretching it on my part, to be honest, but it would be a fair roleplaying scenario.

 

Idunna's mind control wasn't obvious until Hawke (the victim) started speaking in very broken format. So why you think mind control with a demon would be at all obvious to you the player is beyond me.

 

Sure, you can reduce this to "ONLY MERRILL LOVERS ARE SAYING THIS ABOUT THEIR WAIFU" but it strikes me more as you ignoring an element of the lore, that demons can mind control people if they want to. lorewise they hate it, viewing it as crude and only use it as a last resort. Check the Desire Demon codex. Given that Pride Demons are higher ranking, I'd say they believe that as well.

 

You admit it can be done, which is great, yet you're obstinate that it must be obvious to you.

 

And I wonder, why should it be obvious to you? If it was obvious to us, but not the people inside, it'd create a disparity. Should a Demon do a dance to signify it's engaging in mind control?

 

That's just silly.

[KaiserShep]

I liked her a lot more than DAO for sure. She's sort of bland there. I just chalk up the difference to Mary Kirby taking over the writing, and "rebooting" her a bit. She was a minor enough character that continuity doesn't matter.

 

Eve Miles acting is brilliant as well. She phrases a lot of lines awkwardly.. it's really funny sometimes. 

 

So did I, and I enjoy Eve Miles' voice acting immensely as well. For those of us who did anything other than the Dalish origin, the continuity matters even less, but in any case, DA:O Merrill didn't seem like a character that was written with the intention of ever showing her face again in the series.

[KaiserShep]

We also already know that Hawke is susceptible to control based of desire (thanks, Idunna) so it's not like the hero's special-snowflake status is applicable either, apparently all the demons would have to do is whip up the image of a pretty lady (Caress in particular ought to excel there).

 

Regarding Idunna, Hawke is kind of a special snowflake there, because mage or not, while Idunna can get Hawke to give up Vivica against her will, she can't get Hawke to kill herself.

[Xilizhra]

I am positive that they weren't, seeing as the demons in DA:O were unable to fool Morrigan, Sten, or the Warden, and Caress/Wryme can't do it to Hawke or certain other companions. Merrill simply does not grasp her own feeble-mindedness.

Different demons. Lazy demons, likely, given the nature of the Fade realm's ruler. And these demons in Kirkwall are being empowered by a dreamer. In any case, given Kirkwall's terrible magic environment, had Merrill actually been feebleminded, she'd have been possessed long ago.

[TheMadHarridan]

The problem for me is withholding the arulin'holme is creepy and controlling, and AFAIK I know that is the only way to get onto the "rivalry" path.

If I choose to go the rivalry path with Merrill, I usually have her maxed out or almost maxed out by the end of Act 1. By the time I get to her quest, giving her the AH or withholding it makes no difference. If I withhold it, she is still furious, but there is no effect on her score.

[Who Knows]

If I choose to go the rivalry path with Merrill, I usually have her maxed out or almost maxed out by the end of Act 1. By the time I get to her quest, giving her the AH or withholding it make no difference. If I withhold it, she is still furious, but there is no effect on her score.

So you can give her the arulin'holme and still have her smash the mirror?

[KoorahUK]

I like Merrill a lot, but never romanced her on my first 2 PT's. I heard good things about the 'Rivalry' romance with her though so, as I am replaying the game in prep for DA:I, my Pro-Templar Hawke is pursuing her. 

I'm struggling somewhat though, mainly due to Hawkes...somewhat crass flirtations. Its bizarre, I found Hawke way more subtle when he was chasing Issy for heavens sake. With Merrill he can come across as a creeper imo. 

[Xilizhra]

I heard good things about the 'Rivalry' romance with her though so

All of them were lies.

[KoorahUK]

All of them were lies.

Are you able to elaborate? 

[TheMadHarridan]

So you can give her the arulin'holme and still have her smash the mirror?

 

According to the Wiki, yes. I've never done this myself, for if I rival her, I deny her the AH. I was speaking strictly of her rivalry score, meaning that if it's maxed (one way or the other), you can deny or give her the AH, and there will be no change to her score. It's entirely possible to have her at 100% rivalry by the end of Act 1.

 

The Wiki states that her smashing the mirror is tied to whether she is a friend or a rival, not whether or not you gave her the AH. So, if she's a friend, she won't smash it. If she's a rival, smashy-time.

[TheMadHarridan]

Are you able to elaborate? 

 

I've done both the friendmance and the rivalmance with her (one time each, as she's not my favorite romance). While I prefer the friendmance, the rivalmance is decent, although it's more, for lack of a better word, toxic (which is the case with most of the rivalmances, in my opinion). There's a lot more screaming and snide remarks on Merrill's part, and right before the love scene triggers, she may kick you out of her house and tell her she never wants to see you again, which, of course, doesn't last.

 

So while the friendmance is more butterflies and rainbows, the rivalmance is more snarling and growling. But I'd recommend giving it a try, so you can see what it's like for yourself. 

[KoorahUK]

I've done both the friendmance and the rivalmance with her (one time each, as she's not my favorite romance). While I prefer the friendmance, the rivalmance is decent, although it's more, for lack of a better word, toxic (which is the case with most of the rivalmances, in my opinion). There's a lot more screaming and snide remarks on Merrill's part, and right before the love scene triggers, she may kick you out of her house and tell her she never wants to see you again, which, of course, doesn't last.

 

So while the friendmance is more butterflies and rainbows, the rivalmance is more snarling and growling. But I'd recommend giving it a try, so you can see what it's like for yourself. 

Thanks. 

Think I may have a crack at both actually, I have a lady archer I never took past Act1 who would be a good match for Merrill. Whether I see out the Rivalmance remains to be seen. My Hawke is a bit of a gruff bear who is very pro-Templar, so it would fit him, but ... I do feel like a bully.

[Xilizhra]

Are you able to elaborate? 

It's extremely bullying and unhealthily controlling, and involves colluding with treacherous former friends to keep Merrill confined in the paradigm that Hawke thinks is best.