142 réponses à ce sujet

[General TSAR]

I'm up for putting a Blade of Mercy into her heart.

[SgtSteel91]

It's going to be weird if Merrill comes back in Inquisition what with the elves getting a new look (again).

[Bigdoser]

Eh helped Merril with her research yeah she is a blood mage so what? As my warrior Hawke saw it she was trying to recover a piece of history for her people a MAJOR one going by what we learn about the thing in masked empire. Plus going by witch hunt. As long as she was not using normal people to fuel her reasearch I was okay with it. The mirror would have truly helped the Dalish Merril was ready to lay down her life for her research even going far enough to ask Hawke to kill her on the mountain if she ends up as an abomination and I agreed.

 

That to me showed me that she knew what she was doing and was prepared for the consequences if she failed Marethari should of moved the clan on as a keeper should have. That is her job her duty and she didn't do her duty who knows Merril may have turned into the abomination and I would dealt with it as agreed with her or she may have recovered an important part of her people. 

 

My Hawke read the situation and said she would take responsibility because they were looking for a reason to kill her and I don't feel like murdering a whole clan.

[VikingDream]

merril was like a little lost puppy to my evil hawk and melted her heart, that said she would have been much better if once hardened she was less of a dits lol

[WillPF363]

I love how people go "The Eluvians are bad news!" despite the fact they do absolutely nothing bad to the world at all, or say "Merrill was tricked in the Fade" despite the fact that all the companions, barring Anders, will admit they were mind-controlled by the Demons despite the fact that they didn't want to aid them or believe them.
 
You know, like the lore friggin' states Pride and Desire demons are capable of. And you know, you are in the Fade, where Demons are at their most powerful since it's their home.
 
*headdesk*

It didn't do anything bad because the Pride demon that was going to use it to possess her had already possessed Marethari. Was that not obvious? It's not like Marethari and co. were against the recovery of all ancient elven relics, just ones that had been tainted and lead wayward Firsts to make deals with demons to learn blood magic to fix.

[Ryzaki]

She's my second most disliked character in the franchise.

Never killed her though because even without max rivalry, she seems to always want to help me against the mages, meep.

 

Have you tried never talking to her? And you need to rival Anders most likely.

 

That was the only way I got it to work for me.

[TEWR]

It didn't do anything bad because the Pride demon that was going to use it to possess her had already possessed Marethari. Was that not obvious? It's not like Marethari and co. were against the recovery of all ancient elven relics, just ones that had been tainted and lead wayward Firsts to make deals with demons to learn blood magic to fix.

 

No, they don't do anything bad because we see follow-up events in The Masked Empire involving Eluvians showing they're not capable of doing anything bad.

 

People seem to think an Eluvian, which by its nature requires another one on the other end, can somehow be hooked up to the Fade -- despite the fact Morrigan bloody well says they go to a place "beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade" -- with absolutely NO PROOF to support such an outlandish statement, other then the rantings of a possessed old hag who has consistently shot down any attempt at studying the Eluvians at all in the past.

 

Oh, what's the reason they give? Well, "the demon told her that's what he'd do!!!!".

 

Gee it's not like a Pride Demon could've, oh I dunno, lied to said hag who is very prideful in her own right and thinks she alone is right. Nope, that's certainly not possible. It's not possible at all that the Pride Demon could've told Marethari exactly what she wanted to hear so it could say "but you making me your prison would stop that", considering Marethari has been at the subtle influence of this demon for the past seven ****** years.

 

Oh and let's conveniently ignore the fact that Demons grow weaker when they're out of the Fade and even weaker still if they're sundered from the Fade entirely. And even weaker still if they're bound to an object. And let's also ignore the fact that in-game (and out!) it's stated this particular Pride Demon had all three of those, until a certain ****** old woman whose name rhymes with safari decided "LOL I'LL FREE YOU FROM YOUR DEMONIC BUDDHA PRISON SEXY DEMON"

 

Yup, let's ignore all of that to say "HURR DURR MERRILL'S AN IDIOT"

 

I'm just going to continue bashing a part of my body against mahogany now. I've debated this topic for the last three years and I still see the same tired old arguments being made by other people. Same with Loghain, and Mages/Templars. So yeah.... I'm pretty damn sick of it all.

 

*headdesk*

[teh DRUMPf!!]

No, they don't do anything bad because we see follow-up events in The Masked Empire involving Eluvians showing they're not capable of doing anything bad.

 

Except for that whole thing with it carrying the Taint, at which point, it is shown to be capable of doing something bad.
 

People seem to think an Eluvian, which by its nature requires another one on the other end, can somehow be hooked up to the Fade -- despite the fact Morrigan bloody well says they go to a place "beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade" -- with absolutely NO PROOF to support such an outlandish statement, other then the rantings of a possessed old hag who has consistently shot down any attempt at studying the Eluvians at all in the past.

 

But there is no proof it cannot be connected to the Fade, either.

 

This is magic, after all...

 

... speaking of which, from where does magic draw its power?

 

Oh, what's the reason they give? Well, "the demon told her that's what he'd do!!!!".
 
Gee it's not like a Pride Demon could've, oh I dunno, lied to said hag who is very prideful in her own right and thinks she alone is right. Nope, that's certainly not possible. It's not possible at all that the Pride Demon could've told Marethari exactly what she wanted to hear so it could say "but you making me your prison would stop that", considering Marethari has been at the subtle influence of this demon for the past seven ****** years.

Right, the wise thing to believe is that the untrustworthy demon was helping Merrill with no ulterior motive of its own. Clearly.

Oh, and can I point out -- as this is an accusation I have seen from many Merrill fans -- that Marethari's possession had nothing to do with her pride? She did it on purpose. With the information given to her, she would have agreed to possession by any other kind of demon if she thought it would spare Merrill (and in the alternate reality where that happens, Merrill fans would accuse Marethari of listening to the rage / hunger / sloth / desire demon only because she was just an angry / ravenous / twitchy / horny old hag anyway). A desire demon would have actually been the most fitting, seeing as it was done out of care for Merrill, similar to how Connor was possessed by one while distressed about his ill father.

[TEWR]

 

Except for that whole thing with it carrying the Taint, at which point, it is shown to be capable of doing something bad.

 

Except for the fact that Merrill used Dalish healing magic taught to her by Marethari (per the Keeper's words in DAO) amplified by blood magic (because blood magic amplifies magic as well, like lyrium ya know) that at its basic level was able to have an effect on a living person and ending up cleansing the shard of its taint and -- per Word of God -- built an entirely NEW Eluvian from scratch and lore.

 

Or the fact that Anders, a Grey Warden who can sense the taint in a living person, says absolutely nothing about it carrying the taint when he's in the vicinity to Hawke despite his absolute condemnation of it. All he says is a mere "I wouldn't help her. She doesn't know anything", which if you're trying to convince someone to not help someone else, don't you think mentioning a little taint would go a long way to getting them on your side?

 

So yeah, the taint isn't an issue for this mirror because it's no longer the same mirror. The shard was cleansed and the mirror built is brand-spanking-new.

 

 

But there is no proof it cannot be connected to the Fade, either.

 

This is magic, after all...

 

... speaking of which, from where does magic draw its power?

 

Currently? Yes, the Fade. Implicitly? At one point it didn't rely on the Fade, if Yavana's words on a time "before the Veil" are anything to go by. And Elves do hail from an ancient era so maybe.... just maybe...

 

But regardless of that, what's the point in taking an unreliable source at its word, without even going for any grains of salt, and destroying something completely rather then... I dunno... verifying the claim and finding out if it's bullshit like it sounds like or if it has any substance to it?

 

Seriously, that's like destroying something because there's a .0001% chance **** will go wrong with it. Fact of life is that all technology has a potential for danger. All knowledge is dangerous.

 

 

Right, the wise thing to believe is that the untrustworthy demon was helping Merrill with no ulterior motive of its own. Clearly.

 

Yeah no. It wasn't "helping" her at all. All she did was go to it for the basic fundamentals of blood magic (hint, read her Blood magic blurb trees. They say Merrill crafted the spells) and applied that knowledge to her own Dalish healing magic. Word of God told us she used what bits of lore she found and extrapolations therein to create this brand new Eluvian.

 

She's only met Audacity three times: 1) With Marethari, where it was established he was no threat and far too weak to do anything, 2) to learn blood magic, and 3) when she asks Hawke to come with her just incase something unforeseen happens when she tries to talk (and only talk, as she'll tell blunt Hawke) with him.

 

That's it.

 

 

Oh, and can I point out -- as this is an accusation I have seen from many Merrill fans -- that Marethari's possession had nothing to do with her pride?

 

You can, but you'd be wrong. You're really going to say an Elven Mage, hailing from a culture that prides itself on "HOW GREAT WE ONCE WERE AND HOW WE ARE THE ONLY TRUE ELVES OUT THERE", who is in a position of authority within the clan and acts as a mother figure who thinks only she knows what's best.... had no pride? That her possession had nothing to do with her pride?

 

Despite the fact that it's a PRIDE DEMON? That Merrill's story basically centers around the pride of the Elves? Herself among them?*

 

If you think pride is some simplistic notion, you're wrong.

 

*a fact I've never denied, I should point out

 

 

A desire demon would have actually been the most fitting, seeing as it was done out of care for Merrill, similar to how Connor was possessed by one while distressed about his ill father.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Except for the fact that Merrill used Dalish healing magic taught to her by Marethari (per the Keeper's words in DAO) amplified by blood magic (because blood magic amplifies magic as well, like lyrium ya know) that at its basic level was able to have an effect on a living person and ending up cleansing the shard of its taint and -- per Word of God -- built an entirely NEW Eluvian from scratch and lore.

Or the fact that Anders, a Grey Warden who can sense the taint in a living person, says absolutely nothing about it carrying the taint when he's in the vicinity to Hawke despite his absolute condemnation of it. All he says is a mere "I wouldn't help her. She doesn't know anything", which if you're trying to convince someone to not help someone else, don't you think mentioning a little taint would go a long way to getting them on your side?

So yeah, the taint isn't an issue for this mirror because it's no longer the same mirror. The shard was cleansed and the mirror built is brand-spanking-new.

... and, what, this means it cannot possibly be corrupted by an outside source like, say, the one behind the magic that cleansed it?

 

But regardless of that, what's the point in taking an unreliable source at its word, without even going for any grains of salt, and destroying something completely rather then... I dunno... verifying the claim and finding out if it's bullshit like it sounds like or if it has any substance to it?

Merrill, the supposed magic and demonology expert, found that source reliable enough to use for her work. But now we can take it at its word because “ooh, demon!” - ? How convenient.

Anyways, YES, I do believe Marethari. It’s not because I think the demon to be trustworthy. It’s because I don’t; I suspected from the onset that the demon, if not trying to possess Merrill outright, must have had some plan in its head that I was not seeing right away. If anyone was being too credulous, it was whoever did not stop and think what the demon was getting out of helping Merrill out. To that end, Merrill does not ever refute Marethari. No denial that its plan could have worked, nor denial that she would have picked up on the ploy and prevented it. Says it all, IMO. If anything, Merrill was just upset Marethari stopped it because she felt she herself should have taken the fall, which first requires her to believe Marethari was indeed correct.

All in all, this complete dismissal of what Marethari explanation due solely to her possession just comes across as a convenient way to not believe Merrill was about to F up royally. It’s just begging the question, though: and what if the demon is not lying? At that point, Audacity had what it needed, anyway (escape from its prison), so lying does not serve any meaningful purpose there. It may be a demon, but it is not a Dishonesty Demon.

 

Yeah no. It wasn't "helping" her at all. All she did was go to it for the basic fundamentals of blood magic (hint, read her Blood magic blurb trees. They say Merrill crafted the spells) and applied that knowledge to her own Dalish healing magic. Word of God told us she used what bits of lore she found and extrapolations therein to create this brand new Eluvian.

She's only met Audacity three times: 1) With Marethari, where it was established he was no threat and far too weak to do anything, 2) to learn blood magic, and 3) when she asks Hawke to come with her just incase something unforeseen happens when she tries to talk (and only talk, as she'll tell blunt Hawke) with him.

That's it.

Check your facts. Merrill, on why she needs to go back to Sundermount in Act 3: “I’ve called to the spirit, but he doesn’t seem to hear.” Of course, it does not hear because it was imprisoned within Marethari and no longer in the Fade. Also, Merrill said that it witnessed the forging of the Eluvian and also taught her how to cleanse the Taint, so Merrill did not craft the spells.

Sorry, but the evidence points to Merrill being in regular contact with the demon out of Hawke’s sight.

And did you ever wonder how this "talk" in the temple was going to take place, that she just walks up to the statue and speaks to it? If it was just talk, why take Hawke around just in case she becomes possessed? I'm saying she was going to use some sort of blood-magic ritual to communicate with the demon (probably also how she “called to it” away from the mountain). It would explain why Hawke is there as a safeguard, given that blood-magic increases the risk of possession. Also makes sense why she would hide that little detail (she would not want to scare Hawke out of helping her). And, from a writing standpoint, not to scare the players into (rightly) fearing a lot going wrong on the quest and rejecting it.

 

Now here is a fun exercise for you: what do you think would have happened if Marethari did not intervene at all, and the demon was able to answer to Merrill's calls to him?

 

You can, but you'd be wrong.

 

In the same way you were “right” about Merrill’s very limited contact with the demon, I'm sure.
 

You're really going to say an Elven Mage, hailing from a culture that prides itself on "HOW GREAT WE ONCE WERE AND HOW WE ARE THE ONLY TRUE ELVES OUT THERE", who is in a position of authority within the clan and acts as a mother figure who thinks only she knows what's best.... had no pride? That her possession had nothing to do with her pride?

Had no pride? No. That her possession had nothing to do with pride? YES!!

First of all, when Marethari learned of the demon’s plan, she then tried to fight it in the Fade. Once she realized it was too strong for her, she made herself its prison. Her possession was not a result of some deal that she struck with the demon to keep it from achieving its goal. Audacity did not talk her into it. It was a desperate, last-ditch attempt by Marethari at keeping it from harming the person she loved. It was deliberate, at which point, the type of demon at hand does not matter. Demons are not picky. If they get a willing host, they will inhabit it, simple as that. The host does not even have to be capable of the demons’ function, either, seeing as demons can inhabit random things from trees to skeletons ... or do you think desire-demons possess revenants because there are a lot of lustful corpses lying around Thedas?

Besides, if we want to see what someone whose pride makes them susceptible to the words of a demon, we have an example of that in Merrill. Comparing the two of them, I do not see much in common. Marethari has many issues -- fear, an overbearing concern for her ex-First -- but arrogance is not one of them, at least it is no more an issue of hers than it is for the next guy.

[Cyrus Amell]

Personally, I blame Bioware for making a mess of Merril's character. In Dragon Age: Origins, during the Dalish Elf beginning, she was a confident and competent leader among her people and she sounded quite used to commanding respect from the clan hunters. Move forward into Dragon Age 2 and she is a klutz with a strange array of personalities.

 

- She's Smart: she can read human and elvish texts and has retained an encyclopedic knowledge of Dalish lore which, combined with her talent for spellcraft, makes her one of our most scholarly inclined party members. Especially when she is talking with members of her tribe she does appear quick witted.

- She's Naive: Despite being an apostate in a place brimming with templars she draws undue attention to herself by wandering the city - even trespassing in the Viscount's personal garden. If it were not for Varric looking out for her it is implied she would have gotten into serious trouble early on. Sarcasm and wit escape her, even leading her to ruin a Witty Hawke's attempt to trick some thugs at the Docks (to hilarious effect mind you).

- She's Childish: strangely enough she is also childish (going on about wanting a baby griffon), and she does not seem to grow despite the years that pass. She does not seem in the slightest bit jaded for someone who grew up in a traveling tribe, made deals with a demon and regularly fights for her life alongside Hawke.

 

Honestly, if I were reading too deeply into this I would suggest she is slightly autistic (nothing wrong with that, so am I). However, it is likely that Bioware's writers could not settle on a theme. They didn't want another grumpy mage like Anders or (Maker forbid) another Velanna. Nor did they want another stale and sane character like Aveline. So we get this strange woman who is both smart, naive and childish at the same time to the extent that she either pitied or found irksome.

[-TC1989-]

Am I up for some Merrill? Actually... no, I am not. Not at all.

[DarkTl]

I calculated her age once. She mentioned that she was 4 years old when she was sent to another clan. And she also mentioned in another dialogue that she hasn't seen her parents for 10 years. That means 14. Two years after that, in act 2, she can have romance with MC. It's barely legal.

 

Maybe she's not 14, maybe she's 15-16 if clans lived near each other for 1-2 years. Still just a teenager.

[TEWR]

She's 24, actually. This has been firmly established for a while now DarkTI.

[DarkTl]

Proof pls?

[TEWR]

Well, if there ever was a dev quote on the subject, it's hard to find now. And the forum search feature is a piece of crap which doesn't work right at all. But I recall this being discussed in the past as well by other posters who ended up coming to the conclusion that to assume she's a teenager wasn't accurate, especially if it's based solely on appearance (hell, I've been told I still look like a 16 year old and I'm 23). So the consensus was that she's 24.

 

However, you're assuming that

 

1) Bioware would engage in something tantamount to pedophilia for the players to be a part of (technically ephebophilia is the correct term for this, but that's semantics). Although they're far from perfect, they're not going to go and do that. While they'll do that for characters like Alrik, who are thoroughbred unrepentant bastards, them pulling something like a "GOTCHA" on this would be asinine, foolish, and result in heavy backlash no doubt because it would be disingenuous as all hell. It'd be bad from a PR standpoint.

 

And if one were to try and argue "But medieval times had marriages at that age" while that's true, it wouldn't change how DA is loosely inspired on such things and how it'd still be a bad PR move (especially if the age of the character was withheld this long).

 

2) You're assuming that just because Merrill says X and Y, X and Y must therefore be firmly related. Just because she hasn't seen her parents in 10 years doesn't mean she left them ten years ago. Remember, the clans gather every ten years for the Arlathvenn. Thus it's perfectly reasonable that she left them in 9:10 Dragon at the age of 4 (as her codex says that's how old she was) and didn't see them again until the next one in 9:20 Dragon, therefore establishing in her dialogue with Bethany that she hasn't seen them in 10 years (since that dialogue occurs in 9:31 Dragon).

 

As I recall, she gives more info on her time spent as an apprentice to the Keeper, which was basically summed up as "The Keeper made me study all the damn time. No time for me, just books and books and books and books".

 

Beyond that, I'm sure the DAO toolset gave Merrill's age as it tended to do that for other characters.

 

STill, I'll try to dig up some more stuff on the subject.

 

EDIT: Also, she has vallaslin, which only happens when a person comes of age.

[DarkTl]

Fair enough. Though young age would explain her naivety, not to mention her rebellion against the keeper and even the whole clan only to prove that she is right. And writers could forget about her age, since one fact is mentioned in codex and another one in dialogue, so it could be different teams.

 

There is an old thread about her age on this forum, but there is no conclusion.

[SgtSteel91]

I like that in Dragon Age Inquisition Merrill is talking care of the Kirkwall Alienage Elves affected by the Mage Rebellion. She's coming into her own as a Keeper, even if she's banished from the Dalish.

[DarkTl]

I wonder what does she do if her clan was destroyed...

[TEWR]

Fair enough. Though young age would explain her naivety, not to mention her rebellion against the keeper and even the whole clan only to prove that she is right. And writers could forget about her age, since one fact is mentioned in codex and another one in dialogue, so it could be different teams.

 

There is an old thread about her age on this forum, but there is no conclusion.

 

Eh, to be fair the Keeper's wrong about the Eluvians in general because she repeatedly shot down any attempt to study them, deeming them all evil (from both DAO and DAII). So any knowledge she has on the subject is.... well... pulled out of her ass.

 

Are they dangerous? Sure, they're unknown and knowledge is always dangerous. But Marethari's beliefs about them are incorrect.

 

And to a degree yes she "rebelled" against the Keeper, but you have to understand that she followed Dalish protocol first. She first took the shard of the original Eluvian to Marethari, saying they should study it together and pool their magic together to cleanse it of its corruption (as the Keeper managed to stave off the corruption in Mahariel for a time). Marethari refused to do so because it was tainted and this prompted them to argue about it.

 

Merrill then doesn't know what to do and ends up learning the basics of blood magic from Audacity and then used her blood to amplify the Dalish healing magic Marethari taught her. She then brings it back to the Keeper saying it's cleansed and they could study it together, but Marethari questioned her on how it was rid of its corruption. Merrill answered (no doubt reluctantly, given how she says the Keeper can be very imposing) that it was through blood magic, and this made their arguments and divide only grow and grow.

 

So because she wouldn't be able to study it among her clan without being reviled and browbeaten on the subject, and because it was still carrying a danger because of how much she didn't know about it, she followed the next step in protocol and exiled herself. She chose to walk away from the clan, hoping it would keep them safe and because at this point some of the members had turned against her.

[DarkTl]

I won't be surprised if they actually became dangerous (not dangerous only if you don't know how to use them) at some point. For example, after Black City became black. That's why elves who know how they work forbidden them. The knowledge was lost since then, but the danger is still here, and Keepers remember it (or, rather, pass this knowledge from generation to generation).

 

Meanwhile Morrigan (if you played a certain browser game) collected enough knowledge in the city specializing on mirrors and glass to successfully restore another Eluvian without any blood magic or unique tools.

[SgtSteel91]

Well Merrill only needed the Blood Magic to get enough juice to cleanse the shard of the Taint cause she didn't have Lyrium or another mage willing to help her with the spell.

[Teraxo]

I hate her and her forehead.

[SerTabris]

Have you tried never talking to her? And you need to rival Anders most likely.

 

That was the only way I got it to work for me.

 

Did you kill Anders? I've read that the game is designed so that you have a mage available for the final battle.  I think it makes a strange gameplay-over-story decision in that situation, since in the situation you're talking about Merrill will stay with you if and only if you kill Anders (and if I recall correctly, she's the only party member against killing Anders).  It seems even stranger to me because I generally think of Anders' main thing gameplay-wise as healing, which Merrill can't do at all.