The thing that bugs me is how easily she turns on you, after I saved her life, and got her a job with the Guards, if my friendship rate is not high enough. I mean with all that we've been through together and this is, how you thank me?
But mostly she my favorite companion in DA2 aside from Anders, Varric, and Fenris.
I've actually never had her turn on me.
But then, it's typically a race to see who's friendship gets maxed out first: hers or Varric's
I adored Aveline. She was one of the few friends I had on my canon playthrough, where I was very pro-authority. I ended up with basically everyone but her, Fenris, and Sebastian hating my guts, which was fine by me. She was one of my favorite party members.
I don't know if I agree with the part about being ethical, given that she still turns escaped mages into the templars. She goes along with Hawke more out of loyalty than conviction. She also shows signs of racism and will gloss over rape committed by her own guards, but will seek revenge for any retaliation for it.
She onl;y turns in mages she believes to be dangerous.
Given she never turns in Anders, it makes you wonder how bad the ones she does turn in are.
Aveline always struck me as teh Lawful Good type. But more Good than Lawful, given her willingness to bend the rules.
In fact, she always struck me as a Murphy to my Hawke's Dresden, even when not playing a mage 
I've actually never had her turn on me.
But then, it's typically a race to see who's friendship gets maxed out first: hers or Varric's
She onl;y turns in mages she believes to be dangerous.
Given she never turns in Anders, it makes you wonder how bad the ones she does turn in are.
Aveline always struck me as teh Lawful Good type. But more Good than Lawful, given her willingness to bend the rules.
In fact, she always struck me as a Murphy to my Hawke's Dresden, even when not playing a mage
Dangerous? You never even get a chance to turn in dangerous Kirkwall mages; they always pounce on you going "DEMONS RAAARGH." I seriously doubt those mages who actually went along with her would be that much of a threat.
And I'd say she's more lawful than good, but isn't particularly good at either. But I can't rival her, because that requires being douchey.
Dangerous? You never even get a chance to turn in dangerous Kirkwall mages; they always pounce on you going "DEMONS RAAARGH." I seriously doubt those mages who actually went along with her would be that much of a threat.
And I'd say she's more lawful than good, but isn't particularly good at either. But I can't rival her, because that requires being douchey.
It depends on the definition of "turn in." Getting a good tip on where some blood rituals are going on and handing it to a runner who can take it to the Gallows makes the problem somewhat less dangerous. (For Aveline, anyway.)
It depends on the definition of "turn in." Getting a good tip on where some blood rituals are going on and handing it to a runner who can take it to the Gallows makes the problem somewhat less dangerous. (For Aveline, anyway.)
There's also the fact that Anders tends to sympathize less with such mages, so it seems unlikely he'd bring them up to attack Aveline had they actually been dangerous blood mages.
I would argue that it is unethical, or at least immoral.
You have no argument. It's the law, and the Circle is the court. Turning fugitives in to the authorities is not an ethical or moral dilemma; Aveline is not responsible for how fairly the law or law-enforcement treats the defendant. On the other hand, harboring fugitives -- mage or no -- is illegal, and generally always morally/ethically dubious.
As for Anders... well, history hasn't spoken on how many actually regret that yet. My Hawke doesn't, and Merrill doesn't seem to either.
History does not matter. Anders is responsible for wrongful death from the bombing and then many more as a result of it. And in response to Isabela and Aveline both he says that he should indeed be held accountable for killing civilians. Hawke can also angrily exclaim "I should have killed you" shortly after Anders blows up the Chantry, and Anders' response is simply: "... I know =[ " By extension, Anders basically agrees that Aveline should have turned him in, seeing as it would have theoretically served the same purpose as killing him.
She advocates a vigilante murder of a magistrate's son and not reporting it.
... so she is not apathetic to crimes against elves, then. Got it.
But less than anyone else in the party
No.
You have no argument. It's the law, and the Circle is the court. Turning fugitives in to the authorities is not an ethical or moral dilemma; Aveline is not responsible for how fairly the law or law-enforcement treats the defendant. On the other hand, harboring fugitives -- mage or no -- is illegal, and generally always morally/ethically dubious.
The law isn't always just, and some fugitives have become proverbial for being morally right to harbor. I'm sure you know who I mean. Also, "generally always" is inherently contradictory.
History does not matter. Anders is responsible for wrongful death from the bombing and then many more as a result of it. And in response to Isabela and Aveline both he says that he should indeed be held accountable for killing civilians. Hawke can also angrily exclaim "I should have killed you" shortly after Anders blows up the Chantry, and Anders' response is simply: "... I know =[ " By extension, Anders basically agrees that Aveline should have turned him in, seeing as it would have theoretically served the same purpose as killing him.
Actually, no. Anders sees his actions as both unjust themselves and a necessary blow to injustice; he feels that he deserves to be held accountable, but also that it was a necessary action to begin with; his actions would still lead to a net gain. I'd also argue about how much harm was done by Anders alone as opposed to how much harm would have happened anyway without his actions, but this isn't the right thread.
... so she is not apathetic to crimes against elves, then. Got it.
Not when not investigating her own guards, no.
The law isn't always just,
... and in this case, it is not unjust. The Circle has plenty of support from its inhabitants to keep it going. Even mages in the rotten Kirkwall Circle were not conspiring against Meredith for their freedom; Keran explicitly states that they want the Circle, but they want it to work like it should. If there were any weight to your claim that it is an injustice, it would not have the kind of support it does from its supposed victims.
and some fugitives have become proverbial for being morally right to harbor. I'm sure you know who I mean.
You would be plain nuts to believe the Circle is remotely comparable to a full-blown holocaust.
Actually, no. Anders sees his actions as both unjust themselves and a necessary blow to injustice; he feels that he deserves to be held accountable, but also that it was a necessary action to begin with; his actions would still lead to a net gain.
... that does not contradict the fact he agreed that his victims should get justice.
I'd also argue about how much harm was done by Anders alone as opposed to how much harm would have happened anyway without his actions, but this isn't the right thread.
There is no frickin way the Circle by itself would have caused more harm than an all-out war between mages and Templars.
Not when not investigating her own guards, no.
What is she supposed to do, exactly -- have them arrested? No human court will find them guilty of crimes against elves. They would be free men soon and then free to harass elves again. At least if kept under her employ then she can take disciplinary action, which is more punishment than they would likely receive otherwise.
... and in this case, it is not unjust. The Circle has plenty of support from its inhabitants to keep it going. Even mages in the rotten Kirkwall Circle were not conspiring against Meredith for their freedom; Keran explicitly states that they want the Circle, but they want it to work like it should. If there were any weight to your claim that it is an injustice, it would not have the kind of support it does from its supposed victims.
To maintain our prior context, kindly cite any supposed sources where the mages of the Circle advocate rounding up apostates.
I would also argue that your assertion doesn't quite work, because plenty of commoners in our own history supported oligarchies and monarchies that could inflict terrible injustices. Most people will do whatever happens to be easiest, regardless of how right it is.
You would be plain nuts to believe the Circle is remotely comparable to a full-blown holocaust.
Not wholly, aside from being a system of unjust laws.
There is no frickin way the Circle by itself would have caused more harm than an all-out war between mages and Templars.
Meredith had been aiming for Annulment anyway.
What is she supposed to do, exactly -- have them arrested? No human court will find them guilty of crimes against elves. They would be free men soon and then free to harass elves again. At least if kept under her employ then she can take disciplinary action, which is more punishment than they would likely receive otherwise.
Well, she could do what she wanted to do with Kelder. But in this case, it really wasn't necessary to do anything, because other elves took care of it, so she could have just laid off the Arishok and not started a war.
While, on every play through I have done we tend not to always see eye-to-eye … I can honestly say she is the one character in Dragon Age 2 that is consistently always in my party, and I always enjoy the cut scenes that have her in them. She is well-written, loyal, and a fierce fighter and right off the bat I felt for her when she lost her husband and had to make a decision I could never imagine having to make.
She is beautiful, both outside and in and I will not lie I was a bad sad to see (on my original play through) she was not a romance choice. I feel like her decisions are based on a very lawful good approach, and I tend to go towards the chaotic good but overall I find it hard not to find her kindness, and honor an enjoyable aspect to the game overall.
Yeah she's great, good personality, tough & has a nice voice.
I always take her with me.
To maintain our prior context, kindly cite any supposed sources where the mages of the Circle advocate rounding up apostates.
Um, Keran saying "[the mages] want the Circle to work the way it's supposed to."
Registering all mages within the Circle is how it's supposed to work.
Pending the dialogue options chosen, when you encounter Wynne in the Broken Circle quest with Morrigan in the party, Wynne will attack your party simply for harboring an apostate. So there's another one who does not advocate letting apostates run loose.
I would also argue that your assertion doesn't quite work, because plenty of commoners in our own history supported oligarchies and monarchies that could inflict terrible injustices. Most people will do whatever happens to be easiest, regardless of how right it is.
We're talking about the very group of people you believe is the subject of injustice, not just some commoners who are not involved in the matters directly. They were kicking back against the Templars' management of the Circle, so it's not like they are oblivious or apathetic to mistreatment. They were not kicking back against being housed within it. There's an entire fraternity of mages that do not subscribe to the idea of freeing all mages.
And, criminy cripes, if they are Andrastrians then it's basically their religious belief.
I think part of the reason I disdain this whole libertarian nonsense is because it reminds me of ignorant people IRL that trample over people's religious beliefs and religious freedoms because they believe the religion is oppressing them and that they must be freed -- it's not your place (universal "you") to fight for others' freedom if they haven't asked you to. In "freeing" them they have committed oppression themselves.
Meredith had been aiming for Annulment anyway.
So, like I said, the Circle by itself would not have hurt nearly as many people.
Meredith's red lyrium idol was what was pushing her to that end goal.
Well, she could do what she wanted to do with Kelder. But in this case, it really wasn't necessary to do anything, because other elves took care of it, so she could have just laid off the Arishok and not started a war.
I'd say the news of Isabela's escape with the tome is when the Arishok decided to do what he did. It just wasn't made official until Aveline confronted him.
I mean, he and his men were armed and ready when she and Hawke walked in.
Well, she's the world's worst detective and partially responsible for Leandra's death, so there's that not to like.
I'm happy to see there are others who share this view. I don't dislike her as a matter of course, but over a couple of playthroughs, I've learned to like her less. Certainly when she implies that even (Mage) Hawke shouldn't be trusted after all they'd been through (in my game). She lost major points with me on that. I'm still contemplating a run where I "Rival" her after that and don't help her with Donnic. While mostly loyal, she sometimes comes across as a little too self-righteous and her opinions are often two-dimensional (at best).
well if it isn't protecting the city, it is his own mother. Who is she dating? Hawke has no time for that
While I understand the point you're trying to make, interjecting information that has no basis in the game weakens your argument. There was never any dialogue option or circumstances to justify Hawke warning his mother or even knowing that she was dating at all. Yes, Leandra mentioned wanting to find a suitor, but up until she was abducted, there was no indication that she was being courted at all. If you want to blame someone, perhaps it should have been Bodan, who did in fact know about it. In this sense, holding Hawke responsible for something that he didn't know nor could be known by virtue of the gameplay or dialogue options, can't be justified... Except in the mind of the player.
This whole tangent about All That Remains is rendered moot by the fact that the devs purposefully removed any option to save Leandra because they didn't like the fact that people took them rather than let her be butchered. I don't think any character should be blamed for how this quest turned out since everyone involved was forced to act like morons by the people who made the game.
*BINGO!*
I don't always agree with Aveline, I can honestly say that out of all the companions besides Fenris (most of the time) she's the only one I can have a genuine rivalry with that makes me feel as though I still respect and trust her. She's loyal and has your back but there are lines she will not cross and lets you know that. Out of all the companions she also confronts Hawke on some of the things she's done that she disagrees with. I most certainly like and trust her more than others. *cough* Anders *cough* On some playthoughs I think about going the Mage saving route but then remember that Aveline loses her job and everything she's worked for. Her and Fenris are the only two I truly factor into that decision. I know Varric will be okay and I didn't consider him my best buddy, and Isabela always has her ship and can high tail it from Kirkwall if things get too bad.
But as much as I like Aveline I barely take her along with me. Hawke, Isabella, Fenris, and Varric are the fearsome foursome.
On some playthoughs I think about going the Mage saving route but then remember that Aveline loses her job and everything she's worked for.
No she doesn't. The evidence for this is utterly nonexistent. With Meredith dead, neither Cullen nor Bran seems likely to fire her.
No she doesn't. The evidence for this is utterly nonexistent. With Meredith dead, neither Cullen nor Bran seems likely to fire her.
Doesn't the entire party flee the city in the mage storyline?
Doesn't the entire party flee the city in the mage storyline?
Varric uses "we" but not "all of us," so it's not made that clear.
no.
however i can't say why exactly. i believe i just don't like her jaw. i would like to accuse her in being ineffective as captain of the guard and blind to Anders's problem.
however Anders was destined to be a scapegoat, so you can't blame her, Hawke and Cullen in inability to stop Anders.
No she doesn't. The evidence for this is utterly nonexistent. With Meredith dead, neither Cullen nor Bran seems likely to fire her.
She walks off with Hawke at the end pretty much leaving Kirkwall behind. It is clear that they all leave.
Varric uses "we" but not "all of us," so it's not made that clear.
It's made clearer than I'd want to argue against without actual evidence.
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