476 réponses à ce sujet

[spacediscosaurus]

That's not true either. The "sex" cards were actual reminiscent of early twentieth century "naughty" postcards. Everything CDPR did was grounded in actual historical reference and context. They didn't just have sex in there for the sake of sex. Again, having a greater knowledge of The Witcher series would allow people not to jump to ridiculous conclusions.

 

You are the only person in this thread I've seen to actually defend the sex cards. Every other Witcher fan in here has simply stated that CDPR themselves admitted that they were a mistake. So stop.

 

There is a huge difference between depicting sexism in a setting and actively participating in that sexism. The sex cards served no narrative purpose; they were purely for the benefit of the audience. Even if you like the cards, it's hard to deny that's what they were included for.

 

The Witcher's sex scenes are gratuitous and one-sided. Unless you believe that it's historically accurate for a man to have sex with his pants on.

 

No one is saying that the Witcher needs to become sunshine and bunnies. It's perfectly within reason to show a sexist, racist, etc. society in the game's setting. The part that makes it not okay is when those things are portrayed as okay to the audience. I've stated it before in this thread, but I'll say it again: It's okay to like a story set in a sexist/racist setting. It's not okay to enjoy the fact that those settings are sexist/racist. You can like and appreciate a story in a sexist/racist setting while still acknowledging that it's unfortunate that that's the way the world is.

[Giantdeathrobot]

The real world is not a perfect place. Part of the commentary of The Witcher series and novels is to recognize that fact. You don't have to like the social issues that it addresses. They aren't supposed to make you feel comfortable. That is why it's a very mature game that many people should not experience. Otherwise, they will misconstrue what it's actually about, much like many in this thread.

 

Racism and slavery are still very much issues today. To ignore them or act like they never happened is true ignorance. The only way people can learn from their mistakes is to tackle these issues head-on and to deal with them. Again, if you don't like the social issues The Witcher depicts, simply don't buy the game. Dragon Age is much more family-friendly and is meant to be pure entertainment rather than necessarily teaching you about life.

 

I agree with others in this thread that the topic has gone way off course. DAI's rating isn't surprising in the slightest. Based on what we already know from DAO and DA2, I'm not expecting anything we haven't already encountered.

 

You don't seem to get it at all.

 

I read A Song of Ice and Fire, and the sick **** that happens in those books puts anything in The Witcher to absolute shame. I watched Breaking Bad and other similar series (House of Cards ho!), with all their incredibly corrupted characters, and I enjoyed them a lot despite being a bit horrified knowing this probably happens in real life. I have a keen interest in WW2, and the stuff I read about some of the leaders and actions of that time (and not just the Nazis) make me want to vomit. I have no problem consuming media with themes that make me uncomfortable.

 

But the thing is, this isn't about that at all. The beef, if you actually bothered to read other people's post rather than go on self-defensive tangeants, is not that The Witcher depicts sexism (indeed, in that regard it's tamer even than more mainstream media like Game of Thrones) but that the series, the first game more than the second, revels in it to a degree. That's another thing entirely, and a much bigger issue. George R.R. Martin doesn't revel in the slavery and child rape that happens in his books. The writers of Breaking Bad don't revel in how being a murderous drug lord is cool (a subset of the fanbase does, but that's another point). WW2 historians, documentaries and films don't revel in the Holocaust, the Gulags, the Nape of Nanking or whatever other surreal horrors happened in that time.

 

So I'm sorry, but if you really, really believe there is maturity and addressing of social issues (lol) in depicting 18 nakes women as collectible cards for no other reason than you can, well, I don't have much else to say to you.

[Revan Reborn]

You are the only person in this thread I've seen to actually defend the sex cards. Every other Witcher fan in here has simply stated that CDPR themselves admitted that they were a mistake. So stop.

 

There is a huge difference between depicting sexism in a setting and actively participating in that sexism. The sex cards served no narrative purpose; they were purely for the benefit of the audience. Even if you like the cards, it's hard to deny that's what they were included for.

 

The Witcher's sex scenes are gratuitous and one-sided. Unless you believe that it's historically accurate for a man to have sex with his pants on.

 

No one is saying that the Witcher needs to become sunshine and bunnies. It's perfectly within reason to show a sexist, racist, etc. society in the game's setting. The part that makes it not okay is when those things are portrayed as okay to the audience. I've stated it before in this thread, but I'll say it again: It's okay to like a story set in a sexist/racist setting. It's not okay to enjoy the fact that those settings are sexist/racist. You can like and appreciate a story in a sexist/racist setting while still acknowledging that it's unfortunate that that's the way the world is.

They did not admit to the cards themselves being a mistake. What CDPR actually said is how they were obtained and the fact that players were making it an experience to "capture all the sex cards" was unintended. Lets just put that in proper context.

 

You can make the argument The Witcher is gratuitous and one-sided. I would argue they are depicting what sexual intercourse actually is, without hiding it. As far as Geralt wearing pants is concerned. CDPR can only go but so far in terms of pushing boundaries. The only game I'm aware of that has ever shown men below the waist would be GTA San Andreas and GTA IV.

 

If anyone is enjoying the racism, slavery, rape, as well as many other social issues The Witcher is addressing, then that person is a mess to say the least... As I said before, a reasonable person does not "enjoy" those things. What makes The Witcher so fascinating is the fact that it tackles these social issues and doesn't try to gloss over what life actually is like. As I told the individual above you, if you don't like the issues don't play the game.

 

Really though, this thread is about DAI and why it received the rating it did. Someone decided to bring up the point of if DAI would be more mature like The Witcher and it has been established that DAI will never be that mature.

[AresKeith]

Really though, this thread is about DAI and why it received the rating it did. Someone decided to bring up the point of if DAI would be more mature like The Witcher and it has been established that DAI will never be that mature.

 

I'm only replying to this statement because The Witcher isn't all that mature either to make a comparsion

 

So when people make comments like the bolded part is what causes these arguements

 

And this is from someone who also likes the Witcher games

[HiroVoid]

Rule #1:

Be respectful and courteous
The BioWare Forum is a safe and constructive space to discuss BioWare Edmonton/Montreal developed video game content and related items. In order to keep this a fun place for all community members, there are a few ground rules that must be followed for all methods of communication.

It is okay for users to disagree with one another, but opinions must be expressed in a reasonable and polite manner. It is important to maintain an atmosphere of civility and respect, so that all voices may be heard.

 

The topic also seems to have gone a bit off-topic from the ratings system.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Eh, I've always viewed Geralt in the same light as James Bond and other over the top male fantasy characters like that. 

That being said, I highly doubt we'll ever get a main character like that on a Bioware game, nor sex cards or the like.

[Revan Reborn]

You don't seem to get it at all.

 

I read A Song of Ice and Fire, and the sick **** that happens in those books puts anything in The Witcher to absolute shame. I watched Breaking Bad and other similar series (House of Cards ho!), with all their incredibly corrupted characters, and I enjoyed them a lot despite being a bit horrified knowing this probably happens in real life. I have a keen interest in WW2, and the stuff I read about some of the leaders and actions of that time (and not just the Nazis) make me want to vomit. I have no problem consuming media with themes that make me uncomfortable.

 

But the thing is, this isn't about that at all. The beef, if you actually bothered to read other people's post rather than go on self-defensive tangeants, is not that The Witcher depicts sexism (indeed, in that regard it's tamer even than more mainstream media like Game of Thrones) but that the series, the first game more than the second, revels in it to a degree. That's another thing entirely, and a much bigger issue. George R.R. Martin doesn't revel in the slavery and child rape that happens in his books. The writers of Breaking Bad don't revel in how being a murderous drug lord is cool (a subset of the fanbase does, but that's another point). WW2 historians, documentaries and films don't revel in the Holocaust, the Gulags, the Nape of Nanking or whatever other surreal horrors happened in that time.

 

So I'm sorry, but if you really, really believe there is maturity and addressing of social issues (lol) in depicting 18 nakes women as collectible cards for no other reason than you can, well, I don't have much else to say to you.

Your first mistake was trying to make the argument that Game of Thrones is more mature than The Witcher. While I'm a major fan of the show and the books, I would never make the argument that half of the nudity scenes aren't clearly just fan service and gratuitous in nature. Don't even try to make an argument why virtually every female character has to randomly appear naked at one point or another, regardless of the context...

 

Again with the sex cards? I had no personal issue with them. They didn't even need to be in the game in my opinion. Again, CDPR thought it would be interesting to place them in for historical context. What they did not intend was to make it a minigame of people trying to collect all of the cards. They learned from their mistake and took an entirely different approach with The Wither 2.

 

This thread was about how much more mature DAI will likely be. As I said before, it certainly won't be as mature in terms of themes and social issues as The Witcher series. Lets get back on topic.

[spacediscosaurus]

If anyone is enjoying the racism, slavery, rape, as well as many other social issues The Witcher is addressing, then that person is a mess to say the least... As I said before, a reasonable person does not "enjoy" those things. What makes The Witcher so fascinating is the fact that it tackles these social issues and doesn't try to gloss over what life actually is like. As I told the individual above you, if you don't like the issues don't play the game.

 

This is not the point I'm making AT ALL. I said it's perfectly fine for games to depict settings with these issues. I enjoy many works that show these issues. This is not the problem I have with The Witcher.

 

However, Giantdeathrobot above said it better than I could, so I'm not even going to bother trying anymore.

[Revan Reborn]

I'm only replying to this statement because The Witcher isn't all that mature either to make a comparsion

 

So when people make comments like the bolded part is what causes these arguements

 

And this is from someone who also likes the Witcher games

Agree to disagree friend. I've already made many points that suggest The Witcher is very mature.

 

Lets focus on DAI as that's what this thread and forum are meant for.

[raging_monkey]

This devolve quickly lets all calm down and agree to disagree. Both have strong point both have weak points lets leave it be

[Lennard Testarossa]

Who the hell even cares which game is more 'mature'? Desperately trying to be 'grown-up' and 'mature' is just about the most puerile thing there is.

[spacediscosaurus]

Your first mistake was trying to make the argument that Game of Thrones is more mature than The Witcher. While I'm a major fan of the show and the books, I would never make the argument that half of the nudity scenes aren't clearly just fan service and gratuitous in nature. Don't even try to make an argument why virtually every female character has to randomly appear naked at one point or another, regardless of the context...

 

Did you miss the part where they didn't say anything about Game of Thrones the TV show? They only talked about the A Song of Ice and Fire books.

 

And if you can acknowledge that the sex and nudity in the show are fan service and gratuitous despite being a fan, then why can't you also acknowledge the same of the Witcher?

 

Edit to add: I just want to make this clear—I don't even actively dislike The Witcher. I've played both games to a degree, and my main problem with them is that I just don't get into the story the way I do other games, like Dragon Age; plus, I find combat infuriating in both games. However, I also can't turn a blind eye to some of the stuff in those games that are a bit sketchy.

[JerZey CJ]

So has the ESRB released the little "review" thing for DAI yet where they go over why they rated it the way it is?

[slimgrin]

You don't seem to get it at all.

 

I read A Song of Ice and Fire, and the sick **** that happens in those books puts anything in The Witcher to absolute shame. I watched Breaking Bad and other similar series (House of Cards ho!), with all their incredibly corrupted characters, and I enjoyed them a lot despite being a bit horrified knowing this probably happens in real life. I have a keen interest in WW2, and the stuff I read about some of the leaders and actions of that time (and not just the Nazis) make me want to vomit. I have no problem consuming media with themes that make me uncomfortable.

 

But the thing is, this isn't about that at all. The beef, if you actually bothered to read other people's post rather than go on self-defensive tangeants, is not that The Witcher depicts sexism (indeed, in that regard it's tamer even than more mainstream media like Game of Thrones) but that the series, the first game more than the second, revels in it to a degree. That's another thing entirely, and a much bigger issue. George R.R. Martin doesn't revel in the slavery and child rape that happens in his books. The writers of Breaking Bad don't revel in how being a murderous drug lord is cool (a subset of the fanbase does, but that's another point). WW2 historians, documentaries and films don't revel in the Holocaust, the Gulags, the Nape of Nanking or whatever other surreal horrors happened in that time.

 

So I'm sorry, but if you really, really believe there is maturity and addressing of social issues (lol) in depicting 18 nakes women as collectible cards for no other reason than you can, well, I don't have much else to say to you.

 

 

 

 

You lost me at Martin not reveling in the more debase elements of ASoFI. 

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So has the ESRB released the little "review" thing for DAI yet where they go over why they rated it the way it is?

I doubt they've even rated it yet, despite what the OP says DA:I isn't even listed on their website. Type it into their search box, Galatic Empires and Inquisition (A different Inquisition) are the only games that come up.

[spacediscosaurus]

I doubt they've even rated it yet, despite what the OP says DA:I isn't even listed on their website. Type it into their search box, Galatic Empires and Inquisition (A different Inquisition) are the only games that come up.

 

https://twitter.com/dragonage

 

It's in the description.

[Revan Reborn]

I doubt they've even rated it yet, despite what the OP says DA:I isn't even listed on their website. Type it into their search box, Galatic Empires and Inquisition (A different Inquisition) are the only games that come up.

ESRB is always slow when it comes to updating the actual website. At some point they'll list the game and give a description for each and every aspect depicted in DAI.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

https://twitter.com/dragonage

 

It's in the description.

Ah, thanks for that. So that's where the rating has been listed all this time. I couldn't find it so I assumed it was just misinformation, didn't even think to check their twitter.

[Han Shot First]

Hey guys. Let's stop talking/hating on the Witcher series, yea it portrays women differently, but it was just trying to be to realistic. 

 

I'm actually a big fan of the Witcher series. TW2 is one of my favorite RPGs of all time. At the same time however I also don't think it is without flaws, and one of them is that the portrayal of romance/sex can occasionally come across as a bit juvenile.

 

You can like something and still criticize certain aspects of it.

[Giantdeathrobot]

You lost me at Martin not reveling in the more debase elements of ASoFI. 

 

What do you mean? It's pretty damn clear he doesn't to me.. All the characters who do that are painted in an overall bad light. Interviews also show that, while he does not want to sugarcoat how crappy a medieval world would be, he surely doesn't enjoy it at all. He outright said the Red Wedding and the events surrounding it were hard to write for that reason.

[Flameblood1013]

If they want to go more "mature" with full frontal nudity, more real violent, and what over else you can get for an M rating, I say go for it.  All I ask is you make a smart story with well developed characters and setting the tone right, if you want to be funny make sure you have good humor and you want to go sexy...well go sexy and ride the bull.

[Seboist]

The moment Bioware has Dragon Age mirror The Witcher is the moment Bioware loses me as a customer of Dragon Age games.

No self-respecting person should want to emulate that...thing. 

 

That said, unlike CDRP Bioware has tried to handle things much more tastefully so hopefully I have nothing to worry about. 

 

Between the female character designs straight out of Dead or Alive and the lowbrow gaysploitation(and subpar "romances" in general) I don't know where "tastefully" comes into play.

[slimgrin]

What do you mean? It's pretty damn clear he doesn't to me.. All the characters who do that are painted in an overall bad light. Interviews also show that, while he does not want to sugarcoat how crappy a medieval world would be, he surely doesn't enjoy it at all. He outright said the Red Wedding and the events surrounding it were hard to write for that reason.

 

I love the guy's stories. I also think he lacks discipline and is prone to slather the prurience on rather thick at times, way more than Sapkowski ever does. But no matter, fantasy is better as a genre with his contribution.

 

OT: Games are a form of escapism and I don't mind if casual sex and nudity is included. It doesn't always have to be justified to the last letter. 

[Shadow Fox]

Between the female character designs straight out of Dead or Alive and the lowbrow gaysploitation(and subpar "romances" in general) I don't know where "tastefully" comes into play.

What?

[spacediscosaurus]

Between the female character designs straight out of Dead or Alive and the lowbrow gaysploitation(and subpar "romances" in general) I don't know where "tastefully" comes into play.

 

I wasn't aware that acknowledging LGBTQ+ as people and wanting them to feel included in their games was "exploitation". I certainly don't feel exploited at all.

 

And while they haven't been perfect at character designs, they're certainly moving to a better variety of looks for Inquisition (in DA2 as well, with Aveline). Plus, I've always felt that the designs usually fit the character (such as Isabela and Miranda—minus the butt cam). It's nowhere near the levels of Dead or Alive.