21 réponses à ce sujet

[wintermoons]

I just finished another run-through of DA2 literally moments ago, and it reminded me of something that really had bugged me about the last 2 games. I romanced Fenris and stayed devoted to it; in the in-game universe by the ending they'd been together for seven years. And yet the moment you refuse to slaughter all the mages because of Anders screw-up Fenris turns on you for it. Even if he comes back over later he only seems to remember his and Hawke's relationship in the Gallows, where they just kiss like nothing happened. The same thing happens with Alistair--my Warden romanced him, and he'd just got done saying how he'd like to be King if she was Queen and yet the moment I said no to killing Loghain Alistair throws all that out the window and leaves forever. 

 

It just has never made sense to me that after everything the characters have been through their relationship doesn't seem to matter in the end if you make a certain choice. In regards to DA:O I was forced to stop RPing my Warden and in DA2 I was forced to use the console and cheat to salvage the romance--i'd be damned if I was going to throw out the past 24+ hours of gaming to not have my romance matter. I realize romances might not matter so much to everyone, but for those that do care I sincerely hope this changes in DA:I.

[AlexiaRevan]

Hum....you didnt harden Alistair then . Cose it is the only way he stay with you if you want Loghain.  As for Fenris , I usually try to max their friend/Rival before going to the ending . And if it was a rivalromance..that maybe something normal . I dont know...I only did it once and that was a long time ago . 

[riverbanks]

People have lines they will not cross, and being in a relationship with the person who crosses that line doesn't change it. That's why break ups and divorces exist - sometimes love alone is not enough to keep you beside someone who turns out to be willing to go against everything you believe in.

 

It would be infinitely less realistic if Fenris threw away his entire life's experiences and beliefs that have been carved into him with blood, just because you say so. It would be ridiculous if Alistair threw everything that has shaped his whole life and character away because you think you know better. These characters are not puppets, slaves to our PC's whims. They're people, they have their own feelings and opinions, and they're not obligated to bend to your decisions just because you're dating. You push someone far enough over the edge, and sometimes love just won't be enough to make them stay.

 

If antyhing, I don't think romances have been reactive enough yet. Anders will stay with you even if you're anti-mage, Fenris will stay with you even if you take Orana as a slave, Alistair will stay with you even if you're a monster of a person... that's absurd. Romances should react more, challenge the player more, be more willing to walk out on the relationship when it's clearly being toxic for them. We shouldn't be able to step all over their feelings and still get a goodnight kiss for it.

[Battlebloodmage]

Hum....you didnt harden Alistair then . Cose it is the only way he stay with you if you want Loghain.  As for Fenris , I usually try to max their friend/Rival before going to the ending . And if it was a rivalromance..that maybe something normal . I dont know...I only did it once and that was a long time ago . 

I thought she had hardened Alistair already since they're in a relationship.

[AlexiaRevan]

Hum no Alistair can be in a relationship with you no matter if you harden him or not . The hardening count toward becoming Queen and killing or letting Loghain live . If he isnt like Leliana , both can still romance you without any issue . 

[Super Drone]

Fenris turning on you even if you're together has more to do with the Friendship/Rivalry thresholds and the Time Jumps, I think.

 

The LIs jumped into relationships way too quickly (It's like, what, 50% Friendship/Rivalry and they'll do the dirty with you? barring Isabela of course), and the game didn't acknowledge the fact that living with someone for 3 years should cement your loyalty to that person (or at least move the darn Friendship meter up significantly!!)

 

I do think their should be more deal-breaker situations for LIs though. Choosing to be involved with another character should be more complicated than which one is the hottest. If you are pro-Mage to the point where Fenris' objections are meaningless, why do you even want to be with him? I see the same thing popping up with people that hope that they can some how force Cassandra to give up being a Andrastian for their anti-Chantry PC. That's really awful, she's spent her life believing and serving the Chantry, and you want to mind-control her with a Persuade roll to give it all up and bend to your will. Yucky.  

[In Exile]

I just finished another run-through of DA2 literally moments ago, and it reminded me of something that really had bugged me about the last 2 games. I romanced Fenris and stayed devoted to it; in the in-game universe by the ending they'd been together for seven years. And yet the moment you refuse to slaughter all the mages because of Anders screw-up Fenris turns on you for it. Even if he comes back over later he only seems to remember his and Hawke's relationship in the Gallows, where they just kiss like nothing happened. The same thing happens with Alistair--my Warden romanced him, and he'd just got done saying how he'd like to be King if she was Queen and yet the moment I said no to killing Loghain Alistair throws all that out the window and leaves forever. 
 
It just has never made sense to me that after everything the characters have been through their relationship doesn't seem to matter in the end if you make a certain choice. In regards to DA:O I was forced to stop RPing my Warden and in DA2 I was forced to use the console and cheat to salvage the romance--i'd be damned if I was going to throw out the past 24+ hours of gaming to not have my romance matter. I realize romances might not matter so much to everyone, but for those that do care I sincerely hope this changes in DA:I.

While I think you're right in your general criticism I don't see the issue with Alistair. His leaving over Loghain is a pretty character specific event that's reactive to not only your choice in that scene but to who Alistair is as a person.

[Magdalena11]

I think there will be more LIs with deal-breakers, not less.  It's not that the romance doesn't matter, it's just that from a roleplaying perspective, you've already decided that doing what you think is best is more important than maintaining the relationship no matter what, and the companion felt the same way.  It may grieve them deeply to leave, but they can't stay and be true to their beliefs.  Many players let Alistair do the US (or did it themself), even though the warden was in a relationship with him, because they didn't approve of the DR, for whatever reason.  Others killed Anders, even in a romance, because he blew up the Chantry.  Why wouldn't companions have similar convictions?

[Basement Cat]

I think there will be more LIs with deal-breakers, not less.  It's not that the romance doesn't matter, it's just that from a roleplaying perspective, you've already decided that doing what you think is best is more important than maintaining the relationship no matter what, and the companion felt the same way.  It may grieve them deeply to leave, but they can't stay and be true to their beliefs.  Many players let Alistair do the US (or did it themself), even though the warden was in a relationship with him, because they didn't approve of the DR, for whatever reason.  Others killed Anders, even in a romance, because he blew up the Chantry.  Why wouldn't companions have similar convictions?

I would like that, actually. It opens the door to all kinds of interesting scenarios. Maybe some of them will refuse to stay with you if you cross a particular line with them. Some might forgive you going against their wishes because they respect your sticking to your own convictions. We might actually lose respect with some of them for being a yes man/woman.

 

I could see Iron Bull, Solas and Sera being pretty flexible with moral choices, Dorian and Josephine being a bit stricter while Cassandra, Blackwall and Cullen could be very difficult to compromise with.

 

This is complete speculation of course. The last three strike me as people of very strong convictions that will not let them go for anything. After all they all renounce their respective, powerful, factions for the greater good.

[Melcolloien]

Same here!
In real life; if you believe very strongly in something being with someone that does not agree at all will be difficult.

For example: an animal lover and someone who is afraid of basically all animals
A deeply religious person and an atheist
A vegan and a hunter.

There are certain dealbreakers for me - Anders blowing up the Chantry was it for me. I killed him without a doubt.

That was unforgivable.

And, like ninetozero said; they are people.
That is what makes Bioware's games so great, the characters are truly believable and they feel alive.
So they should act like people too.

I want more dealbreakers; that way your romance truly will matter something in the end.
Your character gets to grow together with the love of his/her life - it's not just you bulldozing over everything, making all the decisions and your LI just dealing with it no matter how much it goes against their beliefs.

[coldflame]

....you didnt harden Alistair then .

For some reason it always made me laugh when someone typed that.

[aTigerslunch]

My mind goes that direction as well when talking about hardening Alistair or hardening Leliana.

[Akkos]

Hum no Alistair can be in a relationship with you no matter if you harden him or not . The hardening count toward becoming Queen and killing or letting Loghain live . If he isnt like Leliana , both can still romance you without any issue . 

 

Excuse me mate,  It's true if you want both to live with a hardened Alistair marrying Anora. But to be his queen/mistress you have to kill Loghain. If not he will be very mad at you.

 

You can not let Loghain live while her daugther is in the prison Or be his mistress, with his nº 1 enemy by your side.

[AlexiaRevan]

Excuse me mate,  It's true if you want both to live with a hardened Alistair marrying Anora. But to be his queen/mistress you have to kill Loghain. If not he will be very mad at you.

 

You can not let Loghain live while her daugther is in the prison Or be his mistress, with his nº 1 enemy by your side.

Yeah I know . I never let Loghain live...or take the option to be his mistress (Mostly be a Queen cose I have better pants lol) .And Loghain always die . 

But if you romance Hardened (or not) Alistair and don't make him King , put Anora on the Throne . Can you still keep Loghain alive ? 

[Magdalena11]

Yeah I know . I never let Loghain live...or take the option to be his mistress (Mostly be a Queen cose I have better pants lol) .And Loghain always die . 

But if you romance Hardened (or not) Alistair and don't make him King , put Anora on the Throne . Can you still keep Loghain alive ? 

If Loghain lives, he replaces Alistair in the party and Al is an NPC.  If he's killed, his gear returns to inventory, but if he's exiled his equipment's gone.  His romance status doesn't really matter at that point, since if you talked in camp much, you knew it would boil down to Loghain killing Duncan, his father-figure.  He could be made king with warden Loghain, I think, but I haven't really wanted to see where that went.  I imagine he wouldn't have anything good to say about the warden, since he left the party.  He'd probably be very bitter about the injustice of it all, and a terrible bore at social gatherings.  If he's married to Anora, he's still pretty peeved that Loghain was allowed to live.

[R0vena]

if Loghain is alive, Alistair always leaves the party. No exceptions for romance or anything else.

 

ps King Alistair is not mad at the Warden that much if Loghain does the US. But in the other case... yes, he is quite pissed.

[AlexiaRevan]

Thank you both @ R0vena and @Magdalena11 I may just have to try that myself then for the lols . 

[Xilizhra]

If Loghain lives, he replaces Alistair in the party and Al is an NPC.  If he's killed, his gear returns to inventory, but if he's exiled his equipment's gone.  His romance status doesn't really matter at that point, since if you talked in camp much, you knew it would boil down to Loghain killing Duncan, his father-figure.  He could be made king with warden Loghain, I think, but I haven't really wanted to see where that went.  I imagine he wouldn't have anything good to say about the warden, since he left the party.  He'd probably be very bitter about the injustice of it all, and a terrible bore at social gatherings.  If he's married to Anora, he's still pretty peeved that Loghain was allowed to live.

Actually, Alistair recovers pretty quickly if Loghain lives. He's less angry and willing to talk, to an extent, at the coronation at the end of Origins. In Awakening, he never brings it up at all and comes across as friendly, if slightly distant. By the time of his appearance in DA2, he's still annoyed that Loghain survived, but no longer seems to have any issues with the Warden over it and unhesitatingly calls her a friend.

[Magdalena11]

Actually, Alistair recovers pretty quickly if Loghain lives. He's less angry and willing to talk, to an extent, at the coronation at the end of Origins. In Awakening, he never brings it up at all and comes across as friendly, if slightly distant. By the time of his appearance in DA2, he's still annoyed that Loghain survived, but no longer seems to have any issues with the Warden over it and unhesitatingly calls her a friend.

Good to know.  I never got around to trying that, but I've still got the game.  I'm trying to finish a few other things too.

[Nefla]

People have lines they will not cross, and being in a relationship with the person who crosses that line doesn't change it. That's why break ups and divorces exist - sometimes love alone is not enough to keep you beside someone who turns out to be willing to go against everything you believe in.

 

It would be infinitely less realistic if Fenris threw away his entire life's experiences and beliefs that have been carved into him with blood, just because you say so. It would be ridiculous if Alistair threw everything that has shaped his whole life and character away because you think you know better. These characters are not puppets, slaves to our PC's whims. They're people, they have their own feelings and opinions, and they're not obligated to bend to your decisions just because you're dating. You push someone far enough over the edge, and sometimes love just won't be enough to make them stay.

 

If antyhing, I don't think romances have been reactive enough yet. Anders will stay with you even if you're anti-mage, Fenris will stay with you even if you take Orana as a slave, Alistair will stay with you even if you're a monster of a person... that's absurd. Romances should react more, challenge the player more, be more willing to walk out on the relationship when it's clearly being toxic for them. We shouldn't be able to step all over their feelings and still get a goodnight kiss for it.

I agree about them having boundaries and being willing to leave you, but I'd like some extra dialogue about it if you were in a relationship along the lines of "I thought you were different" "I loved you/trusted you" etc...rather than have it be the same as walking out on a platonic comrade.

[In Exile]

I agree about them having boundaries and being willing to leave you, but I'd like some extra dialogue about it if you were in a relationship along the lines of "I thought you were different" "I loved you/trusted you" etc...rather than have it be the same as walking out on a platonic comrade.

Alistair: My planet needs me. I must go.

[NoForgiveness]

That Alistair one makes sense. For him, I think justice is more important then his love life.