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[Br3admax]

How do mages have it bad again? Free education rivaling nobles. Body guards. Free room and board with no stipulations not placed on them by other mages. The right to leave, extended in a lot of cases. Besides the odd corrupt templar, Circles are the best places to live in Thedas. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yeah.  This is pretty much it.  It's never clear if the women who became broodmothers are still in there in an "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" kind of way, but if so that's the worst imaginable horror Thedas has thrown up yet.

 

But it's a pretty dark and dismal world.  That was pretty much the intent when they labelled "Dark Fantasy."  I notice that the World of Thedas mentioned that the Qun was invented when its founder Koslun travelled the world and saw how miserable everyone was everywhere, except a few powerful overclasses, and invented the Qun to remedy that.  I don't think it's actually working...

Well, he managed to persuade people who are stuck with scut work to enjoy it, and his work has apparently led to some rather modern comforts. Being forced to convert to his philosophy would suck, and if you aren't by nature a conformist being born into it would suck. Apart from that, relative to the rest of Thedas it doesn't seem that bad. (Unless you're a mage, or trapped by one of the Qun's Lawful-Neutral Catch 22s the way Sten and the Arishok were, and Maker help you then.)

 

 

How do mages have it bad again? Free education rivaling nobles. Body guards. Free room and board with no stipulations not placed on them by other mages. The right to leave, extended in a lot of cases. Besides the odd corrupt templar, Circles are the best places to live in Thedas. 

The odd corrupt templar, the odd demon, and being stuck in a Tower, you mean. I'm not saying you don't have some point, I'm just saying you're overstating how nice it is.

[TheKomandorShepard]

How do mages have it bad again? Free education rivaling nobles. Body guards. Free room and board with no stipulations not placed on them by other mages. The right to leave, extended in a lot of cases. Besides the odd corrupt templar, Circles are the best places to live in Thedas. 

You will get gilded cage argument even if they have best conditions in thedas and every society works that way.

[Xiltas]

How do mages have it bad again? Free education rivaling nobles. Body guards. Free room and board with no stipulations not placed on them by other mages. The right to leave, extended in a lot of cases. Besides the odd corrupt templar, Circles are the best places to live in Thedas. 

 

Free Education:

They have to learn as much as they can, because if they are considered to weak, they are essentially lobotomized.

 

Bodyguards:

Their Bodyguards aren't really there to protect them from others, but to protect others from them. Also, their "Guards" have the right to kill them if necessary, or if they receive the order through the Right on Annulment. Also, templars who abuse the mages aren't as rare as you think.

 

Free Room:

Yeah, sharing "your" room with many dozens of other people sure sounds like fun with all the missing privacy and stuff.

 

Right to Leave:

It is pretty rare, mostly allowed during times of war or if they are somehow useful. The only mage so far who was allowed to leave the Circle for a long amount of time (while technically still being under supervision the whole time) was Wynne, and only because she gained much trust helping the Warden. Most of the mages never leave the Circle during their whole lifetime.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Free Education:

They have to learn as much as they can, because if they are considered to weak, they are essentially lobotomized.

 

Bodyguards:

Their Bodyguards aren't really there to protect them from others, but to protect others from them. Also, their "Guards" have the right to kill them if necessary, or if they receive the order through the Right on Annulment. Also, templars who abuse the mages aren't as rare as you think.

 

Free Room:

Yeah, sharing "your" room with many dozens of other people sure sounds like fun with all the missing privacy and stuff.

 

Right to Leave:

It is pretty rare, mostly allowed during times of war or if they are somehow useful. The only mage so far who was allowed to leave the Circle for a long amount of time (while technically still being under supervision the whole time) was Wynne, and only because she gained much trust helping the Warden. Most of the mages never leave the Circle during their whole lifetime.

Better that than an abomnation... 

 

They protect them 1 way or another otherwise as i said folks would destroy them like in times before templars.And yes they are rare we had only 2 examples in series and that was "worst" circle from all.

 

Not when you pass harrowing then you have own room...

 

We know that rhys could , as well finn , wynne , ines ,bethany and much more so we have a lot mages that can.

[KaiserShep]

How do mages have it bad again? Free education rivaling nobles. Body guards. Free room and board with no stipulations not placed on them by other mages. The right to leave, extended in a lot of cases. Besides the odd corrupt templar, Circles are the best places to live in Thedas. 

 

It'd sure be pretty lame to force them to pay for those rooms after being forced to be there in the first place.

[Br3admax]

I wish someone would force me to live in a palace. 

[Xiltas]

Better that than an abomnation... 

 

They protect them 1 way or another otherwise as i said folks would destroy them like in times before templars.And yes they are rare we had only 2 examples in series and that was "worst" circle from all.

 

Not when you pass harrowing then you have own room...

 

We know that rhys could , as well finn , wynne , ines ,bethany and much more so we have a lot mages that can.

 

What's the number of the mages who went through the Harrowing compared to the mages who didn't go through it or weren't allowed?

 

Rhys was allowed to "tag along" because Wynne insisted on it. Finn was only allowed because of the Warden, I have no idea who Ines is, and Bethany is... difficult. Aside from Act 1, she can only be a companion during the DLCs, so it could just as well happen that she's not part of the group if you don't want her with you. Bioware probably didn't want Players to miss out on her if they didn't make her a Grey Warden.

[Br3admax]

Free Education:

They have to learn as much as they can, because if they are considered to weak, they are essentially lobotomized.

Caused by other mages. Jowan specifically says the Circle decides this. 

Bodyguards:

Their Bodyguards aren't really there to protect them from others, but to protect others from them. Also, their "Guards" have the right to kill them if necessary, or if they receive the order through the Right on Annulment. Also, templars who abuse the mages aren't as rare as you think.

Actually. the Templars are there to protect the mages, and any military force is authorized to kill anyone if necessary. Anywhere. That's kind of the point. 

 

Free Room:

Yeah, sharing "your" room with many dozens of other people sure sounds like fun with all the missing privacy and stuff.

Except they don't live in small, cramped, uncompartimalzed rooms. 

Right to Leave:

It is pretty rare, mostly allowed during times of war or if they are somehow useful. The only mage so far who was allowed to leave the Circle for a long amount of time (while technically still being under supervision the whole time) was Wynne, and only because she gained much trust helping the Warden. Most of the mages never leave the Circle during their whole lifetime.

I'm sure it is pretty rare. So are mages. There are plenty of examples of other mages being allowed to leave the Circle indefinitely.

[TheKomandorShepard]

What's the number of the mages who went through the Harrowing compared to the mages who didn't go through it or weren't allowed?

 

Rhys was allowed to "tag along" because Wynne insisted on it. Finn was only allowed because of the Warden, I have no idea who Ines is, and Bethany is... difficult. Aside from Act 1, she can only be a companion during the DLCs, so it could just as well happen that she's not part of the group if you don't want her with you. Bioware probably didn't want Players to miss out on her if they didn't make her a Grey Warden.

Well i know with certainty that number those who shouldn't be allowed was too small judging by numbers of abomnations i had to face.So we know already that circles are way too soft to have control over mages. 

 

And yet was allowed to , no finn could leave circle but he didn't want to until warden.We know that mages can leave even if there is no war and i gave a plenty examples.

[Xiltas]

 

Caused by other mages. Jowan specifically says the Circle decides this. 

Actually. the Templars are there to protect the mages, and any military force is authorized to kill anyone if necessary. Anywhere. That's kind of the point. 

Except they don't live in small cramped, uncompartimalzed rooms. 

I'm sure it is pretty rare. So are mages. There are plenty of examples of other mages being allowed to leave the Circle indefinitely.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the Knight-Commander of each Circle can overrule the First Enchanter.

 

How many Templars would kill regular people over mages?

 

3rd point is debatable, as we don't know if all the Circles have the same design. At least the Ferelden didn't seem as small, but then again they couldn't possibly integrate rooms that hold hundreds of pupils. So it could just have been a design choice.

 

Rarity of mages is debatable, as there should be several hundred mages (and thus, a comparable amount of Templars) in each circle. Should be several thousand across Thedas, I believe.

[Xiltas]

Well i know with certainty that number those who shouldn't be allowed was too small judging by numbers of abomnations i had to face.So we know already that circles are way too soft to have control over mages. 

 

And yet was allowed to , no finn could leave circle but he didn't want to until warden.We know that mages can leave even if there is no war and i gave a plenty examples.

 

And I came up with explanations for the examples, but please elaborate on the matter of which other mages were allowed to leave the Circle?

Also, who said that the mages can leave the Circle during a time of peace? Who said Finn could leave the Circle but didn't want to? They must spend their whole lives in the Circles, and there are hardly any mages who are allowed to leave, but we already had that.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm pretty sure the Knight-Commander of each Circle can overrule the First Enchanter.

 

How many Templars would kill regular people over mages?

 

3rd point is debatable, as we don't know if all the Circles have the same design. At least the Ferelden didn't seem as small, but then again they couldn't possibly integrate rooms that hold hundreds of pupils. So it could just have been a design choice.

 

Rarity of mages is debatable, as there should be several hundred mages (and thus, a comparable amount of Templars) in each circle. Should be several thousand across Thedas, I believe.

The Knight-Commander isn't supposed to be able to overrule the First Enchanter. Whether or not they can in practice varies from Circle to Circle.

 

Any Templar who would never consider killing a mundane over a mage missed a major part of the job description. Whether or not any of them apart from Evangeline haven't is still a valid question, of course.

 

3rd point probably varies from Circle to Circle.

 

Mages are rounded up into the Circle and guarded with a degree of success by men with swords. Even the mages who are eventually allowed to live apart from the Circle for some length of time are required to go there for education. Even accounting for the ones who slip the noose, it seems to me unless they're a small subset of the population, this isn't logistically possible. (Never mind that several hundred over one country isn't really that many people.)

[Arvaarad]

Tranquil. It's confirmed in Asunder that their real personality isn't removed. It still exists in there, but it's powerless to affect their body's actions.

Slavery, alienages, castlessness... these are all terrible and evil systems, but at least people can get used to them and find some happiness. Tranquil are prisoners in their own minds.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'm pretty sure the Knight-Commander of each Circle can overrule the First Enchanter.

 

How many Templars would kill regular people over mages?

 

3rd point is debatable, as we don't know if all the Circles have the same design. At least the Ferelden didn't seem as small, but then again they couldn't possibly integrate rooms that hold hundreds of pupils. So it could just have been a design choice.

 

Rarity of mages is debatable, as there should be several hundred mages (and thus, a comparable amount of Templars) in each circle. Should be several thousand across Thedas, I believe.

If FE is danger KC can but for most of time FE is in control unless FE is weakling like orsino that can hold his power.

 

Very little thanks for that and this should stay that way no such templars should be removed.

 

 

And I came up with explanations for the examples, but please elaborate on the matter of which other mages were allowed to leave the Circle?

Also, who said that the mages can leave the Circle during a time of peace? Who said Finn could leave the Circle but didn't want to? They must spend their whole lives in the Circles, and there are hardly any mages who are allowed to leave, but we already had that.

As i said rhys as far i renember he was allowed to leave even before wynne, Finn as i said he had permission not because the warden asked for him ,Ines (you can search wiki) ,Bethany was allowed ,we know orsino could get out of gallows ,also Galyan from dawn of the seeker was outside circle that is quite lot mages and too much for my taste when we take they are walking bombs.

[raging_monkey]

Oh a MT thread joy of joy lol

[Xiltas]

The Knight-Commander isn't supposed to be able to overrule the First Enchanter. Whether or not they can in practice varies from Circle to Circle.

 

Any Templar who would never consider killing a mundane over a mage missed a major part of the job description. Whether or not any of them apart from Evangeline haven't is still a valid question, of course.

 

3rd point probably varies from Circle to Circle.

 

Mages are rounded up into the Circle and guarded with a degree of success by men with swords. Even the mages who are eventually allowed to live apart from the Circle for some length of time are required to go there for education. Even accounting for the ones who slip the noose, it seems to me unless they're a small subset of the population, this isn't logistically possible. (Never mind that several hundred over one country isn't really that many people.)

 

1) Fair point.

 

4) Most mages who live outside the Circle are apostates, as far as I know. I'm not sure about Wilhelm, I think he was once a Circle mage but eventually escaped? And after Maric became King, he lived in Honnleath, so he was an approved apostate? Are the Necromancers in Nevarra (it was Nevarra, wasn't it?) apostates or do they live in the Circles? I really don't know anymore.

 

If FE is danger KC can but for most of time FE is in control unless FE is weakling like orsino that can hold his power.

 

Very little thanks for that and this should stay that way no such templars should be removed.

 

 

As i said rhys as far i renember he was allowed to leave even before wynne, Finn as i said he had permission not because the warden asked for him ,Ines (you can search wiki) ,Bethany was allowed ,we know orsino could get out of gallows ,also Galyan from dawn of the seeker was outside circle that is quite lot mages and too much for my taste when we take they are walking bombs.

 

Oh, that Ines. Could hardly remember her.

I'll give you Rhys (and in extension, Adrian), Bethany is debatable, as she doesn't leave the Circle if you don't take her with you.

Orsino is a special case, since he is a First Enchanter.

 

But still, those are still quite a few mages compared to the vast numbers of those who never could leave.

[fhs33721]

Quite a few of them have it pretty bad: slaves, mages, elves of all varieties, even Wardens (I'd argue this, unless you're one of those like Carver who enjoy the life).

 

The Casteless definitely have it worst. They're subjugated by their own people, and aren't even allowed to have proper jobs, so they turn to crime. The women's best shot is to prostitute themselves to some noble, and if they end up with a female child then they're even worse off. I remember there was even a guy willing to buy Brosca's teeth, that's how little the Casteless have to sustain themselves with. The darkspawn are encroaching, and if Kal Hirol is any indication, the Castes would use them as a 'human' barricade to buy them time to flee. They could go to the surface, but they've been filled with so much superstition that they'd be too afraid to go. Even if they did, what money would they have to start a life there?

 

That's just scratching the surface, I'm sure.

Don't forget how in Amgarrak the dwarves came up with the great idea to kill a few casteless dwarves and use their corpses to build a golem because "it would be an honor for the casteless to die in such a way".

Hell, even the present Tevinter magister was disgusted by the idea.

 

Yep the casteless seem to have it the worst.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1) Fair point.

 

4) Most mages who live outside the Circle are apostates, as far as I know. I'm not sure about Wilhelm, I think he was once a Circle mage but eventually escaped? And after Maric became King, he lived in Honnleath, so he was an approved apostate? Are the Necromancers in Nevarra (it was Nevarra, wasn't it?) apostates or do they live in the Circles? I really don't know anymore.

 

 

Oh, that Ines. Could hardly remember her.

I'll give you Rhys (and in extension, Adrian), Bethany is debatable, as she doesn't leave the Circle if you don't take her with you.

Orsino is a special case, since he is a First Enchanter.

 

But still, those are still quite a few mages compared to the vast numbers of those who never could leave.

As i said there are mages that could leave and you don't know who can and who can't leave but we know that there are mages that can leave that everyone can't leave is sane thing otherwise it would kill entire point of circle... and i don't rly need deal with more abomnations.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Don't forget how in Amgarrak the dwarves came up with the great idea to kill a few casteless dwarves and use their corpses to build a golem because "it would be an honor for the casteless to die in such a way".

Hell, even the present Tevinter magister was disgusted by the idea.

 

Yep the casteless seem to have it the worst.

This doesn't sound as bad as being Tranquil as Asunder's cured Tranquil describes it. It does, however, sound absolutely horrible and inhuman.

[Solrest]

How do mages have it bad again? Free education rivaling nobles. Body guards. Free room and board with no stipulations not placed on them by other mages. The right to leave, extended in a lot of cases. Besides the odd corrupt templar, Circles are the best places to live in Thedas. 

 

You will get gilded cage argument even if they have best conditions in thedas and every society works that way.

 

A prison is a prison is a prison is a prison. This argument will always come down to freedom, and freedom is intrinsically what the Chantry Circle lacks. That being said there are quite a few people who lack that in Thedas as well, but I'm not arguing their situation in this particular post.  Regardless of how nice the quarters are or aren't, or how hospitable your guards are towards you, it's still a prison (Not to mention the massive dungeons that are beneath every circle tower).

 

You can't raise a family. If you have a child, it belongs to the Chantry and is taken from you, and if it's a mage it's sent to a completely separate Circle.  You can't own land and if you some how did prior, it's striped from you including any potential titles.

 

A prison that exists for those whose only crime is being born a mage. A prison that exists simply because of what a mage might do. This is what exists when punishing a thoughtcrime is accepted as the status quo.

[fhs33721]

This doesn't sound as bad as being Tranquil as Asunder's cured Tranquil describes it. It does, however, sound absolutely horrible and inhuman.

True enough.

The example just shows how dwarves don't value the castless' lives at all and go as far as to say that they should be honored if their betters decide to kill them for some reason. It sheds a pretty poor light on the dwarven social system when even a mage from Teventier says : "Whoa wait a minute. That is f*cked up. I don't think we should pull that one off.".

 

By the way, I'd say abominations have it quite bad as well (not the demon, but the mage being possessed) if Anders description to Merrill is anything to go on.

[TheKomandorShepard]

A prison is a prison is a prison is a prison. This argument will always come down to freedom, and freedom is intrinsically what the Chantry Circle lacks. That being said there are quite a few people who lack that in Thedas as well, but I'm not arguing their situation in this particular post.  Regardless of how nice the quarters are or aren't, or how hospitable your guards are towards you, it's still a prison (Not to mention the massive dungeons that are beneath every circle tower).

 

You can't raise a family. If you have a child, it belongs to the Chantry and is taken from you, and if it's a mage it's sent to a completely separate Circle.  You can't own land and if you some how did prior, it's striped from you including any potential titles.

 

A prison that exists for those whose only crime is be being born a mage. A prison that exists simply because of what a mage might do. This is what exists when punishing a thoughtcrime is accepted as the status quo.

Society is a prison... in every society you have things that are forbidden same is with circles take your pick if you want but i know there is a lot peoples who would love live in such prison like mages most in peoples in thedas don't have freedom not they have such extremely luxurious conditions as mages Simple chantry gave mages much more freedom and standards than they had to otherwise mages still would be destroyed by folks like they were before.

 

You know that modern country can take you children as well if they want to?Same is here..

 

Simple paint circle as bad you want but circles have one of best living conditions in thedas and as i said many times mages are dangerous and any country would do same thing if they seen someone as dangerous.  

 

[StrangeStrategy]

Saarebas, hands down.

 

Saarebas are content with their life though. Unlike the Dalish, Mages, Alienage Elves, poor humans, and (worst of all) Castleless who all wish they had better lives. The only Saarebas Hawke talked to killed himself rather than be free, and was totally at peace with his decision.

[Solrest]

Society is a prison... in every society you have things that are forbidden same is with circles take your pick if you want but i know there is a lot peoples who would love live in such prison like mages most in peoples in thedas don't have freedom not they have such extremely luxurious conditions as mages Simple chantry gave mages much more freedom and standards than they had to otherwise mages still would be destroyed by folks like they were before.

 

You know that modern country can take you children as well if they want to?Same is here..

 

Simple paint circle as bad you want but circles have one of best living conditions in thedas and as i said many times mages are dangerous and any country would do same thing if they seen someone as dangerous.  

 

 

A conceptual prison is not the same as a physical one. It's clear that we won't agree concerning this issue, and I feel as though we're derailing this thread a bit by turning part of it in to a Mage/Templar debate. I think we should agree to disagree on this matter within this thread.

 

(But to take this back on track) I still stand by my views on Saarebas I mentioned earlier, but on a personal level becoming a tranquil would be the worse in my books (Broodmothers withstanding, yikes),