185 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolfen09]

A slave isn't particularly valuable if they are not getting food, and depending on the nature of the slave's purpose to the slaver, a certain level of comfort would probably be necessary for the slaver to get what they pay for. It's a tough distinction between slave and prisoner in terms of the mages. I would think that the Chantry or Templar order would probably not claim to actually own any of the mages in the Circle, considering that they didn't really buy any of them like property, but the permanence of their stay at the Circle kind of makes that distinction moot.

 

Id rather call them prisoners for life than slaves, slaves are forced to work, prisoners dont have to do jack except rot unless they desire to work....

[KaiserShep]

But they don't need to be educated, they don't need to be fed how they do, they don't need to be given huge libraries to study and learn new things. Mage's are taught to expand there minds, if they were just trying to enslave mage's because they are afraid of magic, wouldn't the only thing they would let be taught is how to not be controlled by a demon.

 

And please do not Compare a Circle, with fine dressed clothes, fine beds, fine living conditions to slave labor camps. Because A slave and a Mage look nothing alike. just like a Slave and Warden. or a Slave and a School Child. All of them are forced to do something they don't have a choice into, but you would never compare them.

 

Actually, I would argue that they really do need to provide things like education, and certain levels of creature comforts, because if the Circle was run like any other dungeon, the system would collapse in on itself very quickly. After all, these mages don't exist in a vacuum. They're being detained indefinitely despite having not committed any actual acts against others. Magic or no, one can only go so far with how they're treated if it's to remain sustainable, because in the end, no matter how nice you treat your detainee, the fact that this person is a detainee will always be the major negative that can greatly outweigh a great many things. Luxury and comfort simply become mitigating factors. Trap me inside the Ritz Carlton forever, and I'd probably be pissed and go insane.

[Kieran G.]

Actually, I would argue that they really do need to provide things like education, and certain levels of creature comforts, because if the Circle was run like any other dungeon, the system would collapse in on itself very quickly. After all, these mages don't exist in a vacuum. They're being detained indefinitely despite having not committed any actual acts against others. Magic or no, one can only go so far with how they're treated if it's to remain sustainable, because in the end, no matter how nice you treat your detainee, the fact that this person is a detainee will always be the major negative that can greatly outweigh a great many things. Trap me inside the Ritz Carlton forever, and I'd still be pissed off. Heck, as it was, it was already slowly deteriorating anyway.

We know for a fact you don't need to educate your slaves. if history proves anything, they purposely try not to educate slaves so they don't become of higher intelligence and begin to resist. I would agree mage's are treated like prisoners. but not slaves.

[KaiserShep]

I was referring specifically to the mages in the Circle, not people bought into slavery. I mainly responded to this whole slave business because of the definition of a slave being a slave based on their level of comfort and how well they are fed. In any case, I'd consider it a pretty meaningless distinction in the case of the mages anyway, because in the end, they're still trapped in the system for life and are likely marked for death if they flee, and are at the whim of the Divine's mood.

[Lumix19]

We know for a fact you don't need to educate your slaves. if history proves anything, they purposely try not to educate slaves so they don't become of higher intelligence and begin to resist. I would agree mage's are treated like prisoners. but not slaves.

Then my contribution to this argument has come to an end. I would disagree on the point that in the mages' case they do need to be educated (how else to develop their magical abilities and unlock new uses that the Chantry can exploit) but I don't necessarily see them as slaves either, just very, very close to it. They are definitely prisoners however and in Inquisition I will happily stand by the mages against the templars.

 

I was referring specifically to the mages in the Circle, not people bought into slavery. I mainly responded to this whole slave business because of the definition of a slave being a slave based on their level of comfort and how well they are fed. In any case, I'd consider it a pretty meaningless distinction in the case of the mages anyway, because in the end, they're still trapped in the system for life and are likely marked for death if they flee, and are at the whim of the Divine's mood.

As did I.
 

[Wolfen09]

Then my contribution to this argument has come to an end. I would disagree on the point that in the mages' case they do need to be educated (how else to develop their magical abilities and unlock new uses that the Chantry can exploit) but I don't necessarily see them as slaves either, just very, very close to it. They are definitely prisoners however and in Inquisition I will happily stand by the mages against the templars.

 

well, from what we know about the war, is that we choose a side either mages or templars, absorb them into the inquisition and go from there.... as far as usefulness goes.... mages got the templars beat hands down....  templars can fight mages and demons effectively with their abilities, mages can fight everything effectively with their abilities.... now it would come down to number of troops, but mages are so much more versatile than the templars are.... if they dont give me any reason to choose the templars, im going mages from sheer practicality stand point, not really picking a side, just who is more useful to me

[Lumix19]

well, from what we know about the war, is that we choose a side either mages or templars, absorb them into the inquisition and go from there.... as far as usefulness goes.... mages got the templars beat hands down....  templars can fight mages and demons effectively with their abilities, mages can fight everything effectively with their abilities.... now it would come down to number of troops, but mages are so much more versatile than the templars are.... if they dont give me any reason to choose the templars, im going mages from sheer practicality stand point, not really picking a side, just who is more useful to me

I was thinking about it from a RP point of view but yes, in terms of practicality the Mages are the obvious choice.

[Kieran G.]

Then my contribution to this argument has come to an end. I would disagree on the point that in the mages' case they do need to be educated (how else to develop their magical abilities and unlock new uses that the Chantry can exploit) but I don't necessarily see them as slaves either, just very, very close to it. They are definitely prisoners however and in Inquisition I will happily stand by the mages against the templars.

 

As did I.
 

I never said Mage's didn't need to be educated. i said Slaves aren't educated. I believe full heartedly in the circle and what it is meant to do, be a safe haven to teach and nurture Mage's. But i do not in any way compare the Circle of the Dragon Age a slave labor camp. And i also full heartedly believe in what the templars were meant to be. And in Inquisition i myself will stand by which ever side wishes to stop the war mongering and will quickly put to flame who ever is causing chaos be that a Selfish Mage or a Zealous Templar.

[Lumix19]

I never said Mage's didn't need to be educated. i said Slaves aren't educated.

No what I meant was that if mages were slaves they would still have to be educated so they can develop their magical abilities and unlock new ones which the Chantry can exploit.

I believe full heartedly in the circle and what it is meant to do, be a safe haven to teach and nurture Mage's. But i do not in any way compare the Circle of the Dragon Age a slave labor camp. And i also full heartedly believe in what the templars were meant to be. And in Inquisition i myself will stand by which ever side wishes to stop the war mongering and will quickly put to flame who ever is causing chaos be that a Selfish Mage or a Zealous Templar.

And once I again we seem to stand opposed I believe the Circle as it currently stands, and even as it should have existed, is not the best solution. In my view Mages should govern themselves, they understand magic and their limitations the best whereas Templars/Chantry know nothing about magic and nor do they care - the Rite of Tranquility being an example.

[TTTX]

How exactly do you reign in the largest templar army in the east without stepping on toes that could lead to schism?

 

I mean i have heard this statement for years now, and even though we have no idea what the Seekers were doing at the moment back while the Kirkwall issue was going on.

 

How exactly were they going to resolve it?

 

How do you reign in Templars who are that powerful without basically making a battle hardened army changing from being pissed off at mages to being pissed off at the Chantry?

It was mostly Meredith who stepped out of line (by act 3) rather then entire templar army in Kirkwall and I wouldn't be surprised if the Seekers also found evidence of Orsino's crimes and take him down too while they were at it (mostly because Meredith would claim blood mages are in Kirkwall, which could get the Seekers to investigate that matter to while they were at it).

[Kieran G.]

No what I meant was that if mages were slaves they would still have to be educated so they can develop their magical abilities and unlock new ones which the Chantry can exploit.


And once I again we seem to stand opposed I believe the Circle as it currently stands, and even as it should have existed, is not the best solution. In my view Mages should govern themselves, they understand magic and their limitations the best whereas Templars/Chantry know nothing about magic and nor do they care - the Rite of Tranquility being an example.

Yet will mages be able to look beyond themself and see the people their magic might effect? that was the point of the templar order. to protect the common folk from them if their magic endangers lives, and the protect the mage's from the ignorant common folk. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Besides casteless are uneducated

This was kinda weird in Origins, casteless are ment to be uneducated but there were characters like Beraht, Jarvia & the casteless Warden who seem to be able to read & write, be good with numbers etc, even tho they seemingly wouldn't have access to education like that

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

This was kinda weird in Origins, casteless are ment to be uneducated but there were characters like Beraht, Jarvia & the casteless Warden who seem to be able to read & write, be good with numbers etc, even tho they seemingly wouldn't have access to education like that

Beraht and Jarvia are rich enough that they can afford all the education they want, and I'll note that it's in their best interests to know how do basic math. Otherwise people like that lyrium smuggler he sends you to kill might get away with what they're doing. The casteless Warden has a sister who they're educating as an investment and who could teach him/her. Someone like Leske, on the other hand, is probably pretty well shafted as far as education goes.

[Xilizhra]

Beraht and Jarvia are rich enough that they can afford all the education they want, and I'll note that it's in their best interests to know how do basic math. Otherwise people like that lyrium smuggler he sends you to kill might get away with what they're doing. The casteless Warden has a sister who they're educating as an investment and who could teach him/her. Someone like Leske, on the other hand, is probably pretty well shafted as far as education goes.

Beraht is also not casteless; he has no brand. He's very likely a criminal merchant.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Beraht is also not casteless; he has no brand. He's very likely a criminal merchant.

Either that or a surfacer who's powerful enough to ignore the "can't permanently live in Orzammar" and "have to wear a temporary brand" laws.

[Lumix19]

Yet will mages be able to look beyond themself and see the people their magic might effect? that was the point of the templar order. to protect the common folk from them if their magic endangers lives, and the protect the mage's from the ignorant common folk. 

Well one hopes that most of the mages do care about how their magic affects the people, hence why the Aequitarian fraternity was dominant. Most mages understood that they should use their powers in "a responsible and ethical manner" (quoting from the wiki here concerning the views of the Aequitarians) that would help people. Perhaps the Templars have a place hunting down those mages who would defy such ethical considerations but, in my opinion, they lack the understanding required to actually govern over magic. It's true the common folk are ignorant but housing the mages in the Circles isn't going to rectify that. Increased interaction and perhaps some aid from the Chantry could help sway the public - admittedly that won't be easy because of a deep rooted suspicion of magic but still... one can hope.

[Gearwarden]

Being a Grey Warden seems to be kinda of a bad living as well

[WarriorOfLight999]

Which Inquisition are we talking about here? The one in the past? I know nothing of the details of how it was formed, so therefore I can say nothing about it. You assume, however, that mages were the ones who caused the Blight. That's what the Chantry says, and frankly, I don't believe it. In fact, it's been hinted at by developers that it's simply not the case. And even if it were, so what? The mages of tomorrow are not the mages of today. To pass sentence on someone for someone elses' crimes because they are related by being mages is not only illogical, it's morally abhorrent. I would also wager that the fall of the Tevinter Imperium was caused not simply by the arrogant use of blood magic, but by more practical problems, like overextension of their empire. It would make sense.

 

Another thing: by your definition, no mage is born an innocent. This is a sad train of thought, in my opinion. Yes, mage children need to be trained properly, but they are no more evil than other children. They simply have more power. You say that they yearn for freedom is selfish, but I say not so. There is no selfishness in bowing to an archaic order that thrives on fear and imperialist dogma. If the Chantry can correct itself, and allow greater freedoms, then the Circle might be a more tenable institution. If not, then it remains here, on this thread, as a place not to be in.

[Kieran G.]

Snip*

The first inquisition which historicity was meant to annihilation all mage's, cult members. etc etc. and the Chantry called for a summit to be made to find peace. and so the nevarran accord was made, which turned the Inquisition into the Seekers and Templars, Created the Circles. and create peace for hundreds of years.

 

Yes of course thats your opinion. and like i always hear from people who are biased to the selfish mage's they always say the templars have to give, that the mundanes have to give in. when its the mage's thats the problem, this problem wouldn't exist if they didn't. it is not fair, it is not equal and it can not be treated equally. because they are not equal. A mage is always a weapon, is always a tool, yet has the emotions and mind set of regular person making them worse. Mage's can not be trusted with their own freedom because they will be baised. both sides must give if there is to be peace. but mage's must know that they are at all times always a danger.

 

The mage's are Inherently dangerous. we learn that from wynne that only as a girl she almost killed a boy with a fire ball and burned down their barn. There for, they are always dangerous. they are always armed. they are always weapons, and there would never be peace if they were completely free, because just like normal people they are selfish and power hungry. but the power they command is beyond anything a regular human or elf can ever command. 

 

So i will put it plainly once again. you can not treat something equal that is inherently not equal. 

 

No i do not agree with how the mage's are abused and treated, No i do not agree they are born evil. But they are dangerous. yes they can heal. and we should teach and use and show the world they aren't demons. mage's should be aloud to leave the circle occasionally and see their family (under guidelines). But as a man once wrote "with great power comes great responsibility" which none of these war mongering selfish terrorist mage's seem to understand. they are walking weapons. and one thing the templar have up on a mage. is they can lay their sword down, their armor. unlike a mage who is at all times a weapon if they choose to be or not, they can never put away the danger they have in just one hand.

 

For the betterment of the entire world, they should stay in their gilded cages. 

 

Templars are wrong for how they treat mage's and their zealous towards them. But they don't deserve freedom just because they exist. every mage is a risk to everyone around them, at anytime without any choice they can be possessed. unlike a mundane who has to choose to swing a sword.

[WarriorOfLight999]

We shall have to agree to disagree. If I were born with magic, I would not wish to be treated like a 'weapon', because they are not just weapons. Not something to be used and discarded at leisure. What then, are your thoughts of those born with less power, such as the mentally impaired? And before you say anything about real life comparisons, I'm more than certain the people of Thedas have those with mental disorders. Are they not granted the same rights and protection under the law, despite the comparison between another healthy citizen being 'unfair'? Does the Maker think less of them? Think on these questions.

 

And bias? Truly? If I carry a bias, the Templars and Chantry have enforced it. They can serve a noble function, only if they open their eyes.

[Felene]

Any women fall into darkspawn hands. *cough*broodmother*cough*

[Kieran G.]

Any women fall into darkspawn hands. *cough*broodmother*cough*

Now that there is an awful life.

[Mistic]

The first inquisition which historicity was meant to annihilation all mage's, cult members. etc etc. and the Chantry called for a summit to be made to find peace. and so the nevarran accord was made, which turned the Inquisition into the Seekers and Templars, Created the Circles. and create peace for hundreds of years.

 

Annihilation of all mages? That's only what the letter by an unknown priest in 8:80 suggested. I tend to put more faith on Brother Genitivi as a source, and in World of Thedas he says a very different tale.

 

"Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice led to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their "Inquisition" gaining notoriety as being on no one's side by their own."

 

My guess is that the Chantry tried to make it look as if they stopped the Inquisition's bloody campaign, while it never existed to begin with.

[Master Warder Z_]

It was mostly Meredith who stepped out of line (by act 3) rather then entire templar army in Kirkwall and I wouldn't be surprised if the Seekers also found evidence of Orsino's crimes and take him down too while they were at it (mostly because Meredith would claim blood mages are in Kirkwall, which could get the Seekers to investigate that matter to while they were at it).

Right and Meredith had as many supporters as she did detractors among her own men and the Nobility.

It's a powder keg, and I'm asking how you resolve it without it just exploding on the Chantry.

[WarriorOfLight999]

Indeed. That is more credible, and Genetivi has a reputation for seeking out the truth, not allowing political or religious inconveniences to stop him. After all, his work in finding the Sacred Ashes was considered heresy by some, and look at the result!