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#176
Kieran G.

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Indeed. That is more credible, and Genetivi has a reputation for seeking out the truth, not allowing political or religious inconveniences to stop him. After all, his work in finding the Sacred Ashes was considered heresy by some, and look at the result!

No it isn't. It is not historically accepted and is just one man's theory.

 

You must first accept what is history correct. until proven wrong which that cannot since it is just a theory.

Same goes for the Black city. Cory has first hand knowledge of the city so we must accept his word over the hearsay of the chantry.

 

Annihilation of all mages? That's only what the letter by an unknown priest in 8:80 suggested. I tend to put more faith on Brother Genitivi as a source, and in World of Thedas he says a very different tale.

 

"Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice led to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their "Inquisition" gaining notoriety as being on no one's side by their own."

 

My guess is that the Chantry tried to make it look as if they stopped the Inquisition's bloody campaign, while it never existed to begin with.

Annihilation was a bit of a dramatic flare. i was more stating the historically accepted idea that it was a chaotic time caused by the Inquisition hunt for cults and magic. and not one mans theory which has been accepted.



#177
Solrest

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Annihilation of all mages? That's only what the letter by an unknown priest in 8:80 suggested. I tend to put more faith on Brother Genitivi as a source, and in World of Thedas he says a very different tale.

 

"Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. But all evidence shows they were just as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. Any time they intervened, an ad hoc trial was convened to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice led to their poor reputation, as the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their "Inquisition" gaining notoriety as being on no one's side by their own."

 

My guess is that the Chantry tried to make it look as if they stopped the Inquisition's bloody campaign, while it never existed to begin with.

Brother Genitivi did not write The World of Thedas although he did know the author. I agree with what you're referencing though. Considering the tone and detail of all the writing within I trust the unknown author as a nonpartisan source to be trusted.

 

Edit: I looked up the exact passage you were referencing and noticed it was indeed a letter from Brother Genitivi within the World of Thedas itself. My mistake :).



#178
Aimi

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No it isn't. It is not historically accepted and is just one man's theory.
 
You must first accept what is history correct. until proven wrong which that cannot since it is just a theory.
Same goes for the Black city. Cory has first hand knowledge of the city so we must accept his word over the hearsay of the chantry.


1. "Historically accepted"? By whom? Surely academic historians would be a far better bet at establishing an accepted narrative for the past. The World of Thedas historian is the only academic writer to whom we have access who discusses the Inquisition; an unsourced late-period letter with no direct relationship to the subject is hardly the same thing.

2. Autopsy - personal experience - is certainly a strong argument in favor of a given interpretation. It is, however, extremely important to temper that with source analysis. Perspective imparts meaning, and Corypheus has a very skewed personal perspective on the Tevinter expedition into the Fade. Memory is inexact, and eyewitness accounts, once collated, are notoriously unreliable not just from a historical perspective but from a criminal-justice one as well. And Corypheus has personal reasons to distort his own memory - let alone his own account - of what happened in the Fade. He may have persuaded himself that it was always black to absolve himself of personal responsibility. He may have emphasized Dumat over the Maker in order to maintain his religious worldview. He may have done any number of things, any of which would make what he has to say extremely unreliable.

That does not make it untrue, but it does mean that the problems with Corypheus' autopsy - as with any historical account - must be considered carefully in any effort to develop a synthetic narrative of events.

I think that it is very interesting that you claim that "what is history [sic] correct" - presumably, "a widely accepted historical narrative" - predominates when you talk about the Inquisition (even though you actually side against the widely accepted narrative), and then promptly ignore that dictum when you turn to the subject of the Tevinter expedition into the Fade, where unreliable autopsy takes precedence over historical consensus (such as it is).
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#179
The Baconer

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Right and Meredith had as many supporters as she did detractors among her own men and the Nobility.

It's a powder keg, and I'm asking how you resolve it without it just exploding on the Chantry.

 

I guess it would depend on when this resolution would occur and how.

 

If Orsino, Anders, and other corrupt mages were able to be rooted out and liquidated (because they were a much bigger problem than Meredith) by Act 3, I would assume a further move to investigate and/or remove Meredith from office would go relatively smoothly. At least until she goes full Abomination. If this were to occur before Act 3, I don't even think there's much of a case to build against Meredith, as opposed to going after the corrupted Templars serving under her.



#180
Mistic

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No it isn't. It is not historically accepted and is just one man's theory.

 

You must first accept what is history correct. until proven wrong which that cannot since it is just a theory.

Same goes for the Black city. Cory has first hand knowledge of the city so we must accept his word over the hearsay of the chantry.

 

Annihilation was a bit of a dramatic flare. i was more stating the historically accepted idea that it was a chaotic time caused by the Inquisition hunt for cults and magic. and not one mans theory which has been accepted.

 

Truth be told, the sources about the original Inquisition are too scarce to state those things. We have:

-The already mentioned letter by an unknown priest on the Seekers of Truth.

-Genitivi's letter on the matter that I quoted before.

-The timeline of World of Thedas, that just mentions that the Inquisition was created around -100 Ancient and the Nevarran Accord was signed in 1:20.

-A brief introduction about Templars, which mentions that they were once the Inquisition.

-An interview with Gaider in 2012 that had this:

 

DG: Yes. As a matter of fact the Templars were once all part of a group called the Inquisition. There was an Inquisition in Thedas. It existed around the time that the Chantry started to come to be. This was a time after the First Blight, after Andraste's March, when there was chaos everywhere, the Imperium had broken apart, you had the Old God cults, so a lot of blood magic. There was a lot of chaos, you had the cults of Andraste...and the Inquisition sort of arose as a group of people who said "Enough is enough, somebody has to do something about this magic that is tearing apart the world." And when the Chantry came to be they went to the Inquisition and said "Hey, we're of the same mind on this, why don't we pull together" and that's when the Inquisition turned into the Seekers and the Templar Order. They kind of merged. It'd be interesting to see if the Inquisition ever rose up again.

 

From these sources, however, we can find some points in common:

-Few people know about the original Inquisition or what the Nevarran Accord entailed.

-The original Inquisition merged with the Chantry and was the ancestor of current Seekers and Templars.

-The original Inquisition was Andrastian.

-Among their targets there were cultists and mages.

-They worked during chaotic times and were accused of starting a reign of terror.

 

The rest is just fan theory or conflicting sources, I'm afraid. However, I'm very hopeful about this issue. While events such as Tevinter's Fade Walk, the Elves' supposed immortality, the origin of the darkspawn, the start of the Dalish-Orlesian War, etc. might be left vague forever, I'm pretty sure that a game called "Inquisition" will explain what the original Inquisition was like.


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#181
Kieran G.

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*snip*

Yet you believe genitivi who is not a respected source in his community and we only respect him because of Bias of the PC. and we have heard many things say the time the inquisition was alive was a time of chaos and strife, I am not stating that history blames the inquisition for that but why has history never spoken of a unifying force outside of genitivi's letter. the only thing we hear is that the Chantry and the Orlesian empire brought peace to the land. there are two theories. one say the inquisition was causing chaos during a time of chaos and the other stating the inquisition was trying to protect people during the time of chaos. choose which you want but since the chaotic time stayed chaotic i am to believe the Inquisition wasn't all that noble.

 

And of course Cory'sa account might be biased or opinionated but it is more credible than hearsay without evidence.

*Snip

Yes i believe the hatred of the time of mage's would have led a group to murders mage's and cultis with extreme prejudice and that isn't unlikely since at the time it was believe mage's were blamed for the blight, their enslaved meant, the death of their prophet. etc. etc.

 

and until we learn the origin. i am going to believe that a supposed chaotic organization during a chaotic time was actually chaotic. in my mind that isn't so far fetched. And i'm not calling them evil or for what they stood for. or for what the original circles and seekers stood for. i just don't think the original inqusition was noble.



#182
Aimi

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Yet you believe genitivi who is not a respected source in his community and we only respect him because of Bias of the PC. and we have heard many things say the time the inquisition was alive was a time of chaos and strife, I am not stating that history blames the inquisition for that but why has history never spoken of a unifying force outside of genitivi's letter. the only thing we hear is that the Chantry and the Orlesian empire brought peace to the land. there are two theories. one say the inquisition was causing chaos during a time of chaos and the other stating the inquisition was trying to protect people during the time of chaos. choose which you want but since the chaotic time stayed chaotic i am to believe the Inquisition wasn't all that noble.
 
And of course Cory'sa account might be biased or opinionated but it is more credible than hearsay without evidence.


Meh. This is a mess, but I'll try to sort through it to the best of my ability.

To take your last comment first: you rate autopsy higher than "hearsay". That is understandable. It is also counter to the entire modern field of history. What you describe as "hearsay" is effectively indistinguishable from "use of primary sources in crafting an argument or narrative". Neither requires personal experience.

I recently read Dennis Showalter's book The Wars of Frederick the Great, to assist in TAing a class on eighteenth-century Europe. In it, Showalter makes repeated reference to the King of Prussia's public writings and personal correspondence. Friedrich was present and deeply involved in the Silesian Wars and the Seven Years' War; his autopsy is almost impossible to avoid for any modern reader. But, as Showalter mentions, there are very severe problems with the King's letters: they were written by a man with limited perspective under severe stress and wishing to portray a very specific image to his correspondents. His explanation of the outcome of the Battle of Kolin, for example (one of his greatest disasters), was blatantly self-serving in blaming his subordinates for a series of errors for which he himself was primarily responsible. Friedrich was, often, a sober-minded critic of his own generalship and policy; he was an Enlightenment intellectual who palled around with Voltaire. But he was also not an incredibly reliable source on his own doings. Modern historians, like Showalter, Christopher Duffy, Reed Browning, and Franz Szabo, paint a much more balanced picture of Friedrich's wars with the multiplicity of sources at their disposal and the advanced analysis they can bring to bear as the fruit of a century and a half of philosophical development in history.

Those modern historians were not present, obviously, in central Europe in the middle of the eighteenth century. They were not personally there. They didn't smell the acrid smoke after gunpowder discharges, or see the glint of morning sun on the bayonets of the charging grenadiers at Hohenfriedberg, or slog through Moravian mud with nothing but potatoes for sustenance. Yet today, they are considered more reliable sources than the men who were there and did experience all of that. Just like how, in modern law, it is trivially easy to discredit an eyewitness, it is also trivially easy to discredit a historical source with personal experience of the events that she wrote about.

This does not mean that modern historians are better than original sources by virtue of their modernity. I can name, offhand, a very large number of academic historians with best-selling works and posts at prestigious universities who employ arguments of the greatest mendacity and the most nugatory intellectual rigor. Source analysis must be applied to every historical document - secondary sources as much as primary ones.

That means, however, that there must be demonstrable reasons to disbelieve the work of those later historians. They are not bad because they are modern; they are bad because their logic is bad, their source use is bad, their perspective is skewed, and suchlike things. Which brings us to the beginning of your post: the attack on Genitivi and on the World of Thedas historian.

You describe Genitivi's thumbnail sketch as portraying a "noble" Inquisition that was "trying to protect people". I don't think that anything of value can be extracted from your comments. Even the unsourced Codex letter, upon which you put so much weight, tacitly confirms that the Inquisition was "trying to protect people", so long as those people weren't mages, heretics, cultists, and the like. And "noble" is a word that has been twisted so much that it has almost no meaning in the first place. What Genitivi describes is an organization that did some bad things (his acknowledgment that one could reasonably describe what happened as a "reign of terror") and some good things (his claim of relatively even-handed justice regardless of magic ability). That is not a whitewashing. In fact, it doesn't even contradict the unsourced letter: it merely adds context. There's no obvious reason to view this as intrinsically unreliable.

Neither is there a particular reason to view Genitivi himself as a bad historian, from what relatively little we know about him. He is closely associated with the Chantry, but not so closely that he is immune to internal accusations of bad scholarship or, at the most extreme, heresy (viz. what happens if the Warden sides with Kolgrim but lets Genitivi live). Andrastianism has not left him blind to the defects in Andrastian societies, inclined to paper over any grave flaws; he admits, for example, how horrible alienage life often is (Codex: Kirkwall - The Elven Alienage). He openly states that Chantry dogma is precious little upon which to base a historical narrative (Codex: The First Blight, Chapter 2). One can very easily see that he is an Andrastian in his writings - he refers to the Chantry as being fundamentally correct - but it is by no means apparent that he mutates history to cover up for its flaws.

When assessing the reliability of a historian or historical source, one of the most important tools to use is corroboration: making sure that all of the facts match up, both internally within a narrative and externally, between narratives. You assert that Genitivi's description of the Inquisition is bad because it is inconsistent: if the era of the Inquisition was chaotic, you say, certainly it could not have been a force for order.

That's not a logically sound objection. We know next to nothing about the time period, as you yourself have admitted; what indication do we have that the Inquisition caused the chaos to which you refer? Or, alternatively, look at the difference between intention, action, and outcome: perhaps the Inquisition was formed to restore order, and its actions were taken with that intention in mind, yet those actions resulted in more chaos because of the law of unintended consequences. No one, for example, disputes that the Grey Wardens exist to end the darkspawn threat, yet Grey Warden actions (in The Calling, and potentially in Awakening, Legacy, and Inquisition) have sometimes helped to create more of a threat from the darkspawn than had previously existed. But to go even simpler, we can turn your logic on its own head. We know that the time period of the ancient Inquisition was chaotic; isn't it reasonable that some people would try to end that chaos by forming together into an Inquisition?

Anyway, you're certainly entitled to your opinion about all this, but I think that I've shown that it's not a particularly well-supported opinion. And on one thing we certainly agree: more sources, and better sources, on the ancient Inquisition would matter far more than all this interpretive nonsense.
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#183
Kieran G.

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Meh. This is a mess, but I'll try to sort through it to the best of my ability.

To take your last comment first: you rate autopsy higher than "hearsay". That is understandable. It is also counter to the entire modern field of history. What you describe as "hearsay" is effectively indistinguishable from "use of primary sources in crafting an argument or narrative". Neither requires personal experience.

I recently read Dennis Showalter's book The Wars of Frederick the Great, to assist in TAing a class on eighteenth-century Europe. In it, Showalter makes repeated reference to the King of Prussia's public writings and personal correspondence. Friedrich was present and deeply involved in the Silesian Wars and the Seven Years' War; his autopsy is almost impossible to avoid for any modern reader. But, as Showalter mentions, there are very severe problems with the King's letters: they were written by a man with limited perspective under severe stress and wishing to portray a very specific image to his correspondents. His explanation of the outcome of the Battle of Kolin, for example (one of his greatest disasters), was blatantly self-serving in blaming his subordinates for a series of errors for which he himself was primarily responsible. Friedrich was, often, a sober-minded critic of his own generalship and policy; he was an Enlightenment intellectual who palled around with Voltaire. But he was also not an incredibly reliable source on his own doings. Modern historians, like Showalter, Christopher Duffy, Reed Browning, and Franz Szabo, paint a much more balanced picture of Friedrich's wars with the multiplicity of sources at their disposal and the advanced analysis they can bring to bear as the fruit of a century and a half of philosophical development in history.

Those modern historians were not present, obviously, in central Europe in the middle of the eighteenth century. They were not personally there. They didn't smell the acrid smoke after gunpowder discharges, or see the glint of morning sun on the bayonets of the charging grenadiers at Hohenfriedberg, or slog through Moravian mud with nothing but potatoes for sustenance. Yet today, they are considered more reliable sources than the men who were there and did experience all of that. Just like how, in modern law, it is trivially easy to discredit an eyewitness, it is also trivially easy to discredit a historical source with personal experience of the events that she wrote about.

This does not mean that modern historians are better than original sources by virtue of their modernity. I can name, offhand, a very large number of academic historians with best-selling works and posts at prestigious universities who employ arguments of the greatest mendacity and the most nugatory intellectual rigor. Source analysis must be applied to every historical document - secondary sources as much as primary ones.

That means, however, that there must be demonstrable reasons to disbelieve the work of those later historians. They are not bad because they are modern; they are bad because their logic is bad, their source use is bad, their perspective is skewed, and suchlike things. Which brings us to the beginning of your post: the attack on Genitivi and on the World of Thedas historian.

You describe Genitivi's thumbnail sketch as portraying a "noble" Inquisition that was "trying to protect people". I don't think that anything of value can be extracted from your comments. Even the unsourced Codex letter, upon which you put so much weight, tacitly confirms that the Inquisition was "trying to protect people", so long as those people weren't mages, heretics, cultists, and the like. And "noble" is a word that has been twisted so much that it has almost no meaning in the first place. What Genitivi describes is an organization that did some bad things (his acknowledgment that one could reasonably describe what happened as a "reign of terror") and some good things (his claim of relatively even-handed justice regardless of magic ability). That is not a whitewashing. In fact, it doesn't even contradict the unsourced letter: it merely adds context. There's no obvious reason to view this as intrinsically unreliable.

Neither is there a particular reason to view Genitivi himself as a bad historian, from what relatively little we know about him. He is closely associated with the Chantry, but not so closely that he is immune to internal accusations of bad scholarship or, at the most extreme, heresy (viz. what happens if the Warden sides with Kolgrim but lets Genitivi live). Andrastianism has not left him blind to the defects in Andrastian societies, inclined to paper over any grave flaws; he admits, for example, how horrible alienage life often is (Codex: Kirkwall - The Elven Alienage). He openly states that Chantry dogma is precious little upon which to base a historical narrative (Codex: The First Blight, Chapter 2). One can very easily see that he is an Andrastian in his writings - he refers to the Chantry as being fundamentally correct - but it is by no means apparent that he mutates history to cover up for its flaws.

When assessing the reliability of a historian or historical source, one of the most important tools to use is corroboration: making sure that all of the facts match up, both internally within a narrative and externally, between narratives. You assert that Genitivi's description of the Inquisition is bad because it is inconsistent: if the era of the Inquisition was chaotic, you say, certainly it could not have been a force for order.

That's not a logically sound objection. We know next to nothing about the time period, as you yourself have admitted; what indication do we have that the Inquisition caused the chaos to which you refer? Or, alternatively, look at the difference between intention, action, and outcome: perhaps the Inquisition was formed to restore order, and its actions were taken with that intention in mind, yet those actions resulted in more chaos because of the law of unintended consequences. No one, for example, disputes that the Grey Wardens exist to end the darkspawn threat, yet Grey Warden actions (in The Calling, and potentially in Awakening, Legacy, and Inquisition) have sometimes helped to create more of a threat from the darkspawn than had previously existed. But to go even simpler, we can turn your logic on its own head. We know that the time period of the ancient Inquisition was chaotic; isn't it reasonable that some people would try to end that chaos by forming together into an Inquisition?

Anyway, you're certainly entitled to your opinion about all this, but I think that I've shown that it's not a particularly well-supported opinion. And on one thing we certainly agree: more sources, and better sources, on the ancient Inquisition would matter far more than all this interpretive nonsense.

Hearsay is defined by the statement of a fact which the individual has no prior knowledge and knows only of it from being told it. My statement is the Chantry has no Evidence that the city was turned black by the magisters except for the words of someone else stating that the city was turned black by the magister. There for having no evidence, where a 1st person testimony of events trumps that.

 

And again. I stated i do not trust the writings of Genitivi. and I even said i do not believe the Inquisition caused the chaos. what i did say was what is more probable. A unifying force during a chaotic time which we have heard nothing about. or another chaotic force during a chaotic time. i never stated with assertion that the Inquisition is the cause for the chaos of that period, in fact when someone first quoted what i said. i told them that what i said was for dramatic flair, and that was happening because of a in the moment squabble of opinions.

 

But i concede, my opinion is different, but that's also because i have much of a bias for that time period. i admit that. 



#184
TTTX

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Right and Meredith had as many supporters as she did detractors among her own men and the Nobility.

It's a powder keg, and I'm asking how you resolve it without it just exploding on the Chantry.

She also have a lot of enemies and the Nobility isn't one her side much (there are a few, but that's out of fear rather then loyalty)

 

Even though Meredith is powerful it's in Kirkwall only and if she stood up against the Chantry she would be on her own, most of the city wouldn't be on her side after that even some of her own templars would have abandon her.

 

Besides one of the ways to have resovled the situation would to call her to the main Chantry in Orlais while she was there, the Seekers could do their job in Kirkwall. 


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#185
Fiddles dee dee

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Sandal wait no Bodhan for having to chase after Sandal.



#186
foolishquinn

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I'd say the casteless dwarves and maybe Saarebas have it the worst, with alienage elves being only slightly better off. 

In my opinion mages don't have it horribly bad, what with the meals, the education and the roof over their heads. And being protected from the general ignorant populace. 

 

This I like and its totally true.