2576 réponses à ce sujet

[Finnn62]

Whatever.

Ditto.

[Han Shot First]

Yes, my frilly girly soft BS crap-a-thon JRPG where the men are girls, something like that. So Han Shot First, how do you know about JRPGs, I take it therefore you have played some? Now why would that be. In the exceedingly rare instance that you really only ever have played and desire to play hardened staid CRPGs like Baldur's Gate and DA2, congrats on having the courage of your convictions.

 

It's funny because like would you call a CRPG like Diablo not frilly? The succubi in Diablo are signficantly more frilly and sexy than anything in most JRPGs. The only difference is that they're brazen caricatures of females and you slaughter them, oh Diablo, what would we do without your sexism.

 

Or there are the desire demons in DA. I think the only matter of personal taste is whether you want to dress your character in a hot outfit (JRPG), or mercilessly slaughter characters dressed in hot outfits in a hate filled vengeance quest (Diablo, Dragon Age). One way or another, it's in the game.

 

 

I'd consider the more frilly armor designs a JRPG influence. Similar armor designs exist in Western RPGs because Japan long reigned as king of the console market, and many of the 'classics' released when Japan was the center of the gaming universe have had an impact on the current generation of Western game devs. They grew up playing some of those games as kids.

 

Also there is is Anime..which both influenced JRPGs and Western gaming devs who if they weren't into Anime, probably played a Japanese game or three that was influenced by it.

 

The platekinis are a Western thing though. Or at least it became a thing in Western fantasy independent of Japan. You can find those all over cheesy Western fantasy art from the 1970s and early 1980s.

[Seraphim24]

Oh really? Because having an opinion obviously means I don't respect anyone else's opinion and see mine as the absolute truth, right? To truly believe in the subjectivity of people's opinions on something, I need to be an unfeeling robot with no thoughts of my own? Sound logic, there.

 

Simmer down there Hegel.. or Kant.. or Plato... whichever one was obsessed with these kinds of questions.

 

I'm just saying your 'opinion' just 'happens' to be shared with a whole lot of other people, and start to look at that as a kind of objective account of people's interests, no big deal.

 

 

I'd consider the more frilly armor designs a JRPG influence. Similar armor designs exist in Western RPGs because Japan long reigned as king of the console market, and many of the 'classics' released when Japan was the center of the gaming universe have had an impact on the current generation of Western game devs. They grew up playing some of those games as kids.

 

Also there is is Anime..which both influenced JRPGs and Western gaming devs who if they weren't into Anime, probably played a Japanese game or three that was influenced by it.

 

The platekinis are a Western thing though. Or at least it became a thing in Western fantasy independent of Japan. You can find those all over cheesy Western fantasy art from the 1970s and early 1980s.

 

Well let me just get right to the point aside from the fact that you frankly know way more about the details of this than I do, which do you fundamentally enjoy more?

[Cyonan]

 

It certainly helps prop up the weaknesses in a thing arbitrarily rather than simply going out and enjoying something that is outright better. I can't fathom why people would do this, but they are certainly entitled to do so. I'm curious though, share with me this overwhelming Skyrim mod that makes the outfits really impressive.

 

If Skyrim had a more imaginative and fantastical aesthetic, combined with a world that emphasized similar things, I could of seen it working for a lot of reasons, probably not just entirely on the basis of outfit changes, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had had a sizable impact.

 

There are tons of mods on the Nexus Mods site. Just go take a look and they have armour sets for just about any aesthetic.

 

Funnily enough despite your claims however the most popular armour mod on Nexus right now is the one called "immersive armors" that uses lore friendly looking armour. It has about 1.8 million more downloads than the next most popular armour mod which is a skimpy armour mod.

[windsea]

In a perfect world then functional-looking armor in the vanilla game and leave the sexy armor to the modders.

I mean they are going to be making better looking body and armor anyways so Bioware might as well give focus on the functional-looking armor, they don't get nearly enough love by modders.

[Remmirath]

My opinion on the objective/subjective thing is something like subjective is what people use to describe what they don't understand, ergo aesthetics or sex appeal is subjective. If I was arguing about gameplay or something that creates a genuinely challenging, skillful game suddenly that's objective to everyone, but I bet I could find people who would feel the opposite (because they might not understand gameplay).

That is not what subjective means, though, so the fact that you're using it in that manner is confusing to people reading your posts. Aesthetics and sex appeal are almost entirely based on personal taste and opinions. They are nothing if not subjective. Claiming that people who disagree with your opinions do not understand what they are talking about is not very productive.

Gameplay is largely objective, yes. Challenge is objective to an extent, because people do have different strengths and weaknesses, so something that is challenging to one person may be easy for other people. I would say that the goals of gameplay design are subjective, but how well they are implemented is more likely to be objective.
 

It might seem arbitrary but it's really not, otherwise artists really wouldn't even exist or have a profession would they?

Wait, so if I believe that aesthetics are subjective and yes, even somewhat arbitrary -- but I'm an artist -- you're now saying that I'm arguing against my own existence? Interesting.

There's an incredible variety of artists out there, by the way. So many different styles could not be supported if people's appreciation for art were not at least somewhat subjective.
 

Indeed. And even in that set, there are minor differences. For example, do you prefer entirely accurate plate, or do you loathe the beer-belly like chestplate, and prefer something that aligns more with our modern aesthetic of flat stomach = good?

Quite. Thus why having a good variety of armour is good, and being able to customise it is great.

My answer? Find your favourite/nearest museum that has an armour collection and stroll around, and that's pretty much what I'd like to see. I am partial to German gothic armour:


(Well, sans the often excessive sabatons, as I expect our characters to spend most of their time on foot.)
 

If that isn't the most conservative way to see this... there are so many ways of attacking that idea... anything bad that's ever been done in the name of tradition should be continued for the same reason, such as, I don't know, the fact that characters could be perma-killed in CRPGs. Yeah.. I'm not sure that one is coming back.

You do realise that some people actually like that game design feature, right? I'd be quite happy if it came back as a usual thing. Permanent injury would be great, too. I like the stakes to be high in combat, and for it to reward good tactical thinking.
 

Found a disney-fied full plate armour set that I find very feminine and pretty.

I'd be more than happy to wear this:

Spoiler

Y'know, I've actually got nothing against that. Add a bit of shoulder protection and it's good to go. The gold inlay work is an entirely historically accurate (and in my opinion, quite aesthetically pleasing) way to add decoration to armour.
 

The funny thing is there is a pretty sizable interest from non-Asian countries in things like Anime or often JRPGs. Many JRPGs sell better outside of Japan than in Japan. Yet the reverse is virtually never true, and the reason for that is partially because these things really doesn't lie in the eye of the beholder. I can easily find dozens upon dozens of pictures where you are comparing one to the other, and one will win out for the majority of people the majority of the time.

If you're going to use that argument, many of the best-selling RPGs (at least on the PC -- I don't know so much for consoles) have been western RPGs, and the very best-selling games aren't RPGs at all.

Also, this sounds as though you are espousing the opinion that individual opinion matters not if the majority holds one particular opinion -- a sort of democracy of aesthetics, of you will. I disagree with that. Perhaps if there was to be only one computer game for each genre an argument could be made that the elements of each should be put to a vote, but there is plenty of room for a great variety of games to please all sorts of tastes. I think that a diverse collection of games is a much better thing than pushing what is perceived as the most popular at all times.
 

Adding this one to the other 3 options, I'd probably choose this one.

Yeah. My assessment of those three would be: really silly armour, not armour so why is it a choice here?, silly armour with at least a decent colour scheme and nothing exposed, if I have no other options I would take that, but I want a different option. Give me some reasonable armour.

I generally can't stand WoW's art direction, though, and I really don't see the appeal of anime style.
 

The game concept sold Skyrim more than aesthetics. A Skyrim set in the land of super-adorable outfits and crazy spells and so on would of sold 40 million.

Plus Skyrim wasn't really that terrible, it was average, but it wasn't bottom of the barrel. I feel like there were some decent cloth and leather... I think it was the Dark Brotherhood? They had some decent stuff.

So you say, but I doubt it, and it can't be proven. I would not have bought that version of Skyrim.

Yeah, there was some decent armour in there. The lighter armours were generally not so good, but the heavier armours were decent. Why, Dwarven, Daedric, and Bonemold armour were great! Sadly, Orcish and Ebony were quite disappointing in that they looked cool on the male characters but kind of silly on the female characters.
 

Plus you said the keyword "PC." They don't buy it on PC, I'm pretty certain.

Lots of people bought Skyrim for the PC. Or are you saying that the only people who would like it better if it were all frilly and crazy and what are console gamers? I wouldn't expect there to be such a clear-cut divide.
 

It's funny because like would you call a CRPG like Diablo not frilly? The succubi in Diablo are signficantly more frilly and sexy than anything in most JRPGs. The only difference is that they're brazen caricatures of females and you slaughter them, oh Diablo, what would we do without your sexism.

Or there are the desire demons in DA. I think the only matter of personal taste is whether you want to dress your character in a hot outfit (JRPG), or mercilessly slaughter characters dressed in hot outfits in a hate filled vengeance quest (Diablo, Dragon Age). One way or another, it's in the game.

Or, third option, we'd actually rather not have those outfits at all, but do want to play computer games and those types of outfits keep popping up in computer games. Being that we do enjoy the games in other ways, we decide that a succubus or desire demon every now and then isn't enough to ruin our overall enjoyment of the game.

(Sidenote: I suppose I should thank you for the congratulations on my convictions, since I really never have wanted to play a JRPG. They don't interest me. I won't say they're objectively bad, but they are very much not to my taste, both mechanically and aesthetically.)

[Finnn62]

I'm just saying your 'opinion' just 'happens' to be shared with a whole lot of other people, and start to look at that as a kind of objective account of people's interests, no big deal.

When you put it like that, then I can't really argue. I'd just be careful how far you take these generalizations, that's all. It's all good, internet buddy. Here, have a kitten, if you like:

Spoiler

[Seraphim24]

There are tons of mods on the Nexus Mods site. Just go take a look and they have armour sets for just about any aesthetic.

 

Funnily enough despite your claims however the most popular armour mod on Nexus right now is the one called "immersive armors" that uses lore friendly looking armour. It has about 1.8 million more downloads than the next most popular armour mod which is a skimpy armour mod.

 

I'm not really sure what your point is at this point, are you saying that the armor design that is thoroughly gritty and realistic in the vein of Skyrim and DA is bad? Thus compelling the need for a modding community? If so, then your essentially making my point which is that the game's gritty and realistic vein is not all that appealing to most people, including people like me.

 

If you are saying that grit and reality triumphs over sex and frills then isn't your evidence of the modding community which often selects a variety of more attractive and compelling armor design, as you note, a skimpy armor mod being the second most popular of all the mods, contrary to that original position?

 

The blazes?

 

 

When you put it like that, then I can't really argue. I'd just be careful how far you take these generalizations, that's all. It's all good, internet buddy. Here, have a kitten, if you like:

Spoiler

 

I like kittens.

[Han Shot First]

 

Well let me just get right to the point aside from the fact that you frankly know way more about the details of this than I do, which do you fundamentally enjoy more?

 

I prefer Western RPGs generally, though not because of the armor designs. I'm not a fan of the armor designs in most Western RPGs either. 

[Remmirath]

I believe that Cyonan is saying that the top armour mod for Skyrim in fact increases the impact of the aesthetic that is already present in the game, rather than altering it, which implies that most people like the already-present aesthetic. The figure for the skimpy armour mod is likely in there to demonstrate just how many more people like the more realistic armour mod.

Oh, and with regards to the whole pick-an-armour thing -- very few people will not be able to pick, and indeed will not pick, between a set of options that they are presented with. This becomes even more true if it is the only options they have (as, in the context of CRPGs, it often is).

It would be more informative for you to poll people on what sort of armour they would have, if they could have any armour at all that they wanted. You will get a much more representative sample that way, although some people will have to point only to existing examples that they already like, so it still won't be perfect.

[Cyonan]

I'm not really sure what your point is at this point, are you saying that the armor design that is thoroughly gritty and realistic in the vein of Skyrim and DA is bad? Thus compelling the need for a modding community? If so, then your essentially making my point which is that the game's gritty and realistic vein is not all that appealing to most people, including people like me.

 

If you are saying that grit and reality triumphs over sex and frills then isn't your evidence of the modding community which often selects a variety of more attractive and compelling armor design, as you note, a skimpy armor mod being the second most popular of all the mods, contrary to that original position?

 

The blazes?

 

I'm saying that despite your claims that the realistic look of the base game not being appealing to "most people" the most popular armour mod adds armours that look like the rest of the armours in the base game.

 

The modding community will provide for most aesthetics, but the most popular one seems to be the realistic one.

[Han Shot First]

Out of all the DA games so far I think I prefer DA:I best as far as armor design goes. Or at least that is my impression so far. Of course that could change once I actually get into the game. 

 

But the armor worn by Cassandra, the warrior Inquisitor, and Blackwall looks better than the massive armors from DA:O or some of the more outlandish designs from DA2.

[Seraphim24]

This Remmirath post was so long.. wow... ok.. but why not here we go

 

That is not what subjective means, though, so the fact that you're using it in that manner is confusing to people reading your posts. Aesthetics and sex appeal are almost entirely based on personal taste and opinions. They are nothing if not subjective. Claiming that people who disagree with your opinions do not understand what they are talking about is not very productive.

Gameplay is largely objective, yes. Challenge is objective to an extent, because people do have different strengths and weaknesses, so something that is challenging to one person may be easy for other people. I would say that the goals of gameplay design are subjective, but how well they are implemented is more likely to be objective.
 

 

This is my experience, very attractive people find that sex appeal and aesthetics are completely objective, not subjective, and often acquire much greater attention and affection and interest from an objective standpoint on matters pertaining to that arena of life.

 

Very clever and able people often find that gameplay and skill are completely objective, not subjective, and often acquire much greater attention and interest from an objective standpoint on matters pertaining to that.

 

Coincidence? No, obviously not.

 

Wait, so if I believe that aesthetics are subjective and yes, even somewhat arbitrary -- but I'm an artist -- you're now saying that I'm arguing against my own existence? Interesting.

There's an incredible variety of artists out there, by the way. So many different styles could not be supported if people's appreciation for art were not at least somewhat subjective.

 

And many of them are broke and don't have the ability to attract interest if their life depended on it. But of course they're just "ahead of their time" or some nonsense right?

 

If you're going to use that argument, many of the best-selling RPGs (at least on the PC -- I don't know so much for consoles) have been western RPGs, and the very best-selling games aren't RPGs at all.

Also, this sounds as though you are espousing the opinion that individual opinion matters not if the majority holds one particular opinion -- a sort of democracy of aesthetics, of you will. I disagree with that. Perhaps if there was to be only one computer game for each genre an argument could be made that the elements of each should be put to a vote, but there is plenty of room for a great variety of games to please all sorts of tastes. I think that a diverse collection of games is a much better thing than pushing what is perceived as the most popular at all times.

 

Many of the best selling games still capture the same aesthetic sensibilities, RPG or not. Mario is pretty iconic because hey, it's a bit ridic but that plumber has some style.

 

As to the parts about diversity in games... it's so general I mean sure, but there is no point in making something different in a bad way.

 

Or, third option, we'd actually rather not have those outfits at all, but do want to play computer games and those types of outfits keep popping up in computer games. Being that we do enjoy the games in other ways, we decide that a succubus or desire demon every now and then isn't enough to ruin our overall enjoyment of the game.

 

Phew yeah thank god we didn't have to deal with breasts and such. I realize this somewhat contradicts the earlier part about them being bad stereotypes, but I'd rather have a bad stereotype than nothing at all.

[Seraphim24]

I'm saying that despite your claims that the realistic look of the base game not being appealing to "most people" the most popular armour mod adds armours that look like the rest of the armours in the base game.

 

Well, that strikes me as a purely pointless exercise. Hey I know! Lets add things that are already in the game!....Again..... yeah....

[Muspade]

Well, that strikes me as a purely pointless exercise. Hey I know! Lets add things that are already in the game!....Again..... yeah....

 

"Pointless" according to you. 

Dat opinion though.

[N0rke]

I did my best.... Sorry. I actually really like the muted colours, simpler silhouette; I think the teal and olive are gorgeous. 

 

I wouldn't choose the first image because I don't like the winged-out style, and I find it too bright. 

 

What about this image, is it any better? <Snip>

No need to be sorry. The only thing that really lets the comparison down is how captivating the colors used on the left are (at least to me anyway). It made it hard to appreciate and compare the picture to the right because my eyes were always drawing back to the other one. While you find the olive and teal to be gorgeous, I find the pinkish-purple with the grey accents to be mesmerizing. Which is weird because normally I'm a fan of muted colors as well.

 

If that image is to replace the the muted one then I think your comparison is as fair as you're going to get it now. Both pictures sharing color schemes makes it easier to focus on the actual armor itself. In this instance I'd definitely pick the more modest outfit. I really enjoy the simplicity of the clothing with the vibrancy of the cloak. It helps add flair and character that doesn't exist in the other. I also enjoy the fact that it has its own sense of sex-appeal with the tight-hugging pants and slight cleavage, but it doesn't sacrifice practicality to achieve it.

[Muspade]

Please enlighten me oh god Muspade, your dashing and smoking cigarette avatar just oozes with such confidence and coolness. I am literally shaking and quivering with anticipation at your shocking displays of wit and charm. O the heavens cry from above! Muspade! Thou cometh! Share upon us all thine holy wisdom, such that us lowly plebians be saved from our eternal heckishness of terrible taste!

 

Please O great one.

 

Set your sight upon the south Horizon, Kefka and walk until you can bare it no longer. Only then will you know what you must do.

[Lady Luminous]

No need to be sorry. The only thing that really lets the comparison down is how captivating the colors used on the left are (at least to me anyway). It made it hard to appreciate and compare the picture to the right because my eyes were always drawing back to the other one. While you find the olive and teal to be gorgeous, I find the pinkish-purple with the grey accents to be mesmerizing. Which is weird because normally I'm a fan of muted colors as well.

 

If that image is to replace the the muted one then I think your comparison is as fair as you're going to get it now. Both pictures sharing color schemes makes it easier to focus on the actual armor itself. In this instance I'd definitely pick the more modest outfit. I really enjoy the simplicity of the clothing with the vibrancy of the cloak. It helps add flair and character that doesn't exist in the other. I also enjoy the fact that it has its own sense of sex-appeal with the tight-hugging pants and slight cleavage, but it doesn't sacrifice practicality to achieve it.

 

Yes, I meant the purple cloak image to replace the muted teal. It was further down the search page, so I didn't notice it at first.

 

I loved the sleeves of the top and the details on the boots. I wished the top was more high-necked, but it was still a striking outfit.

[Finnn62]

Alright, Kefka, I already made peace with you as best I could and was on my way to bed, but I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to use a Morgan Freeman jpg, in this instance. Sorry 

That is not what subjective means, though, so the fact that you're using it in that manner is confusing to people reading your posts. Aesthetics and sex appeal are almost entirely based on personal taste and opinions. They are nothing if not subjective. Claiming that people who disagree with your opinions do not understand what they are talking about is not very productive.

[Lady Luminous]

I have to admit I love this, even though there's boob window. It's just so pretty...

[Muspade]

I have to admit I love this, even though there's boob window. It's just so pretty...
<insert picture here>

That is quite pretty, actually. 

Perhaps replaced the golden parts with rosy red and the brown with the golden colour already used, and i'd be sold on it.

It is clothing, right?

[Lady Luminous]

That is quite pretty, actually. 

Perhaps replaced the golden parts with rosy red and the brown with the golden colour already used, and i'd be sold on it.

It is clothing, right?

Yeah, I'd give it to a rogue, so either classify as light armour or clothing.

 

Thinking of colouring like this then?

[Bfler]

The modding community has put those things in on PC.

 

So why hasn't it become the best selling video game of all time yet?

 

If I'm not mistaken, then Skyrim is the offline RPG with the most sales until now.

[dirk5027]

Yeah, I'd give it to a rogue, so either classify as light armour or clothing.

 

Thinking of colouring like this then?

that's gorgeous, good find

[Rykoth]

To me, if you want JRPG armor, play an JRPG.

 

I hate that people make Skyrim all anime-fied. Mostly because its harder to find lore based mods.

 

Likewise, part of me is happy DAI can't be modded (probably) - because nobody can anime or pervertify the game.

 

It pissed me off when people tried to take DA2 and use their racism to turn Isabela white. It makes me mad to see people take something and take a crap on the lore because they'd rather play with the visuals of another game. PLAY THAT OTHER GAME.

 

The setting of Thedas - again - does not allow for plate-kinis. It does not allow for Triple E boobed warrior women. Yes, Isabela can be buxom because she's a pirate rogue, Morrigan can be sexy because she says "screw society." But those are the exceptions, not the norm. I'm proud of Bioware for not catering to the "I want bewbs" masses.