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The choice between "sexy" and awesome armor


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#1051
Seraphim24

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This isn't an argument about acceptable. It's an argument around "protect thyself from the pointy things". Why? Thedas says armour protects from pointy things. If you want a different aesthetic, find a different world, a different game. Especially when the games that do have "sexy armour", don't leave an option not to wear it either.

 

I honestly thought I had to for someone to take me seriously. When I saw this, all I went in my mind was "ooooh badass". Well, that and "Fashion touchstone: Lady Sif"

 

See what I mean? There are a bunch of people out there who are so insistent that "because it's cool" is an inappropriate reason because in the 16th century French chevaliers lost the conflict against the English norman order and blah blah blah. Now they've pressured you into all this extra stuff that no one cares about.



#1052
Cainhurst Crow

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Armor. Repeat after me...

Armooooor.

 

And? Celtic warriors used to charge into battle naked against the romans, and often scared the crap out of the roman enemy.

 

And if you want to talk about armor, here's a bigger, more important question. Does good armor actually mean making it 100% practical in all regards, even if it flies in the face of imagination or creativity? Practicality is dragon age origins armor, where every armor is the same, just with a different coat of paint on it. That's the thing about practicality, its boring. Its boring by design because its meant to be highly formulaic and mathematically meet a computated ratio between mobility and defense. You can't have practical, and have imaginative.

 

Even the picture kurin linked is full of impractical additions, the cloth interwoven takes up previous space and could be used by opponents to help grapple against her, her shoes appear to be solid pieces which means no ankle mobility, that skirt restricts upper leg movements if its made of metal and if not, its pointless and only adds additional and unnecessary weight, her shoulders are completely unprotected from enemy attacks, and long hair makes one open to hair pulling any gradeschooler can tell you that much.

 

Does that sound fun? Does that sound like its a fun way to design armor? If not, then why are we pushing so hard for it?

 

I would also bring up how practicality is a constantly shifting thing, for example the various points in history pants were considered practical or impractical, and that when it comes to females, practicality is somewhat unfair because if shunns feminine qualites in favor of making females look more masculine by hiding all their traits behind layers of nondescript metal.


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#1053
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I think that was specifically for people like you to take their argument seriously, since you're so obsessed with armor having sex appeal. They had to point out where it was for you. "Stuff no one cares about" indeed.
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#1054
Cainhurst Crow

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tbh the op got it down with her, im assuming her, statement here.

 


For me it's all about one thing - choice. Sometimes I prefer wearing full plate, like the warden commander armor in DA2, or templar armor. Sometimes I prefer something Isabela would wear. Or maybe something a desire demon would wear...

 

I like morrigans outfit. I like isabela's outfit. Merrils as well. I also like fenris's digs. And anders robes are cool. Aveline has a kickass set of armor, and while I don't like Meredith's armor, I do like the lighter version of DA2 templar armor. I dislike sebastians and the arishocks outfits, cause ones got big dumb shoulder pads and the other looks like a armored crop top.

 

I like that dragon age, espeically dragon age 2, decided to do something daring and make characters visually unique. I like that in Da2, you had a wide range of outfits and physical appearances in the game world. It made the world feel more alive, even if the outfits and apperances weren't practical.

 

Can we all in the end agree, that making the games closer to dragon age origins in terms of armors, all of them bland and boring and same and practically sufficient for protection, would be a bad move? Can we all at least agree to that, and that keeping a good range of armors and battle gear would be more prefered to that?


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#1055
Muspade

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And if you want to talk about armor, here's a bigger, more important question. Does good armor actually mean making it 100% practical in all regards, even if it flies in the face of imagination or creativity? Practicality is dragon age origins armor, where every armor is the same, just with a different coat of paint on it. That's the thing about practicality, its boring. Its boring by design because its meant to be highly formulaic and mathematically meet a computated ratio between mobility and defense. You can't have practical, and have imaginative.

 

Even the picture kurin linked is full of impractical additions, the cloth interwoven takes up previous space and could be used by opponents to help grapple against her, her shoes appear to be solid pieces which means no ankle mobility, that skirt restricts upper leg movements if its made of metal and if not, its pointless and only adds additional and unnecessary weight, her shoulders are completely unprotected from enemy attacks, and long hair makes one open to hair pulling any gradeschooler can tell you that much.

 

Does that sound fun? Does that sound like its a fun way to design armor? If not, then why are we pushing so hard for it?

 

I would also bring up how practicality is a constantly shifting thing, for example the various points in history pants were considered practical or impractical, and that when it comes to females, practicality is somewhat unfair because if shunns feminine qualites in favor of making females look more masculine by hiding all their traits behind layers of nondescript metal.

I don't think you're qualified to talk about what I find boring but I did like DA: O's selection of armor, less so DA2

I never advocated that Kurin's armor was practical.

Implying that protecting yourself was ever about masculinity or femininity. Do you want a boob shaped bullet-proof vest?


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#1056
aTigerslunch

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It's simply that whenever someone is obsessed with creating a kind of conservative image, it's usually (in my experience) over-compensating for some kind of past extensive sexual history or something like that. So my brain tends to equate that kind of emphasis with that sort of background, although it is not literally pornographic in the slightest.

Obviously, that might not necessarily apply to any or all here, but it's just my experience so that's how I feel about it.

If you had just said look at this armor, it looks cool and realistic, I probably would not have said anything. I probably would of said yeah sure, whatever. But the way it was discussed it it felt like an extreme fixation on the female form, what with all the details regarding her breasts and so on, felt very much like hardcore objectification to me.

One of the best, that I know of from you. :D This is the type of posts I been waiting for from you. :) Showing your opinion without tearing down another's.

Your right, it would be best to say that. I know I want these outfits to be equal to each gender myself and not one sided.

#1057
Star fury

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Kinda amazing that we've progressed as collective societies around the world so much that we can now dictate what people make women look like and what outfits are and are not acceptable for them to wear.

Not like those barbaric times where people forced women to wear what they found acceptable, and dictated what outfits are and are not acceptable for them to wear.

Amen, brother. You must stop those barbarian conservative militaries of the world forcing poor women to wear those awful bulletproof vests. No sense of fashion, doesn't show woman's body.

#1058
Uccio

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I'm going to give you this to read:
http://repair-her-ar...make-me-go-what
And here's a quote from that to illustrate just why JRPG styles would make no sense in DA:

Spoiler

If you want functional, yet 'feminine' armour, then, I'd advocate designs that cover all the important bits (no cleavage window, as that exposes your sternum, making a target of your heart and lungs, and no midriff exposure, as that makes a target of your vital organs). Check this beauty:

tumblr_inline_mgc54yse8k1rnp9q5.jpg
It accentuates the breasts indirectly, so the form is pleasing, but no edges pointing inwards. The ENTIRE torso is covered, making it believable as a functioning chestpiece. And BEST OF ALL, it could look the exact same on a male body, and would look just as awesome.

The only problem with the above is the heels, as those things are hard to run in (nevermind walk), but at the very least, they are wedges, allowing for no sinkage in dirt, or random tripping over one's heels. I would still get rid of them though, the outfit doesn't really need em.

 

 

It is good but still lacking, shoulders and thigs are obvious targets and would incapacitate her very fast.



#1059
aTigerslunch

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Well, there is a difference in leather, plate, chain. That girl looks to be in leather mixed in with a breast plate armor. Breast plate doesnt always cover everything.

#1060
Han Shot First

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And? Celtic warriors used to charge into battle naked against the romans, and often scared the crap out of the roman enemy.

 

 

Considering the Celts near consistently got the snot kicked out of them by the Romans, they might not be the best example. Rome destroyed Celtic culture in Europe.


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#1061
aTigerslunch

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Edit: erasing what I wrote. Found an article where a Celtic queen attacked a Roman settlement.

#1062
PhroXenGold

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Yes, they pretty much lost. I would think part of that is cause of unity issues as well. They were a group but didnt seem to have a general? I am not going to say they did or didnt. Not aware of any, trying to look it up.

 

There were some succesful Celtic generals, but the one of the real issues was the other part of that sentance you used: they weren't actaully a coherent group. They were a very loosely linked (through culture and language) people that covered a wide range of distinct ethnicities and tribes and ranged from the British isles to Anatolia. There was no organised, centralised "celtic" society because the idea of a single "celtic" people was ridiculous, and none of the individual peoples within the "celtic" ubrella were really strong enough to resist the Romans.

 

Some "celtic" peoples did manage to organise somewhat - Vercingetorix certainly managed to unite a fair few of the Gallic tribes and put up quite a bit of resistance to the Romans, while several centuries earlier Brennus actually sacked Rome with his (again, Gallic) tribe - but they didn't have the social structure or resources to build a political entity that could resist Rome in the long term.


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#1063
Dermain

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There were some succesful Celtic generals, but the one of the real issues was the other part of that sentance you used: they weren't actaully a coherent group. They were a very loosely linked (through culture and language) people that covered a wide range of distinct ethnicities and tribes and ranged from the British isles to Anatolia. There was no organised, centralised "celtic" society because the idea of a single "celtic" people was ridiculous, and none of the individual peoples within the "celtic" ubrella were really strong enough to resist the Romans.

 

Some "celtic" peoples did manage to organise somewhat - Vercingetorix certainly managed to unite a fair few of the Gallic tribes and put up quite a bit of resistance to the Romans, while several centuries earlier Brennus actually sacked Rome with his (again, Gallic) tribe - but they didn't have the social structure or resources to build a political entity that could resist Rome in the long term.

 

Brennus defeated the Romans ~387-390 BCE which is far before the time that Rome actually became a powerhouse. I will also point out that while the Roman legion (at that time) consisted of ~4200 men they were basically a militia force, and as such rarely had the actual 4200 men. 

 

Vercingetorix is a more reliable Celt to use as proof that they could beat the Romans...but even then...

 

And? Celtic warriors used to charge into battle naked against the romans, and often scared the crap out of the roman enemy.

 

They may have frightened the Romans initially, but after the Romans had the bow auxiliaries fire a few rounds followed by throwing their pilums at the Celts I'd wager that there were very few crazy naked men still fighting. 


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#1064
SNascimento

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This celtic x roman thing reminded me of a quote:
 

"Yet it was not the “barbarian” advance but the Roman that was truly inhuman and chilling. The legions, as the Christians did at Lepanto and the British at Rorke’s Drift, fought in silence; they walked until the last thirty yards of no-man’s-land. At a predetermined distance the first line threw their seven-foot pila, for the first time yelling in cadence as they unleashed the volley. Immediately and without warning, hundreds of the enemy were impaled, or their shields rendered useless by the rain of projectiles. Now with the lethal short swords unsheathed, the first rank crashed into the stunned enemy mass. The oblong shields had iron bosses in the centers, and the Romans used them as battering rams to shock the enemy, as the well-protected legionaries hacked off arms, legs, and heads during the confusion. Individual soldiers pushed in to exploit gaps where the dead and wounded had fallen. Almost immediately, an entire second army, the succeeding line of principi, surged in to widen the tears in the enemy line, hurling their pila over their friends’ heads in the melee, the entire process of charging, casting, and slicing now beginning anew— with yet a third wave ready at the rear.
 
The terror of war does not lie in the entirely human reaction of tribal cultures to bloodletting—screaming and madness in giving and receiving death, fury of the hunt in pursuit of the defeated, near hysterical fear in flight—but rather in the studied coolness of the Roman advance, the predictability of the javelin cast, and the learned art of swordsmanship, the synchronization of maniple with maniple in carefully monitored assaults. The real horror is the entire business of unpredictable human passion and terror turned into a predictability of business, a cold science of killing as many humans as possible, given the limitations of muscular power and handheld steel. The Jewish historian Josephus later captured that professionalism in his chilling summation of legionary prowess: “One would not be wrong in saying that their training maneuvers are battles without bloodshed, and their battles maneuvers with bloodshed” (Jewish War 3.102–7).
 
The utter hatred for this manner of such studied Roman fighting surely explains why, when Roman legions were on occasion caught vastly outnumbered, poorly led, and ill deployed in Parthia, the forests of Germany, or the hills of Gaul, their victors not only killed these professionals but continued their rage against their corpses—beheading, mutilating, and parading the remains of an enemy who so often in the past could kill without dying. The Aztecs also mutilated the Spanish—and often ate the captives and corpses; and while this was purportedly to satisfy the bloodlust of their hungry gods, much of the barbarity derived from their rage at the mailed conquistadors, with their Toledo blades, cannon, crossbows, and disciplined ranks, who had systematically and coolly butchered thousands of the defenders of Tenochtitlán. In the aftermath of the British defeat at Isandhlwana, the Zulus decapitated many of the British and arranged their heads in a semicircle, in part because so many of their own kinsmen had minutes earlier been blown apart by the steady firing of Martini-Henry rifles."

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#1065
Lady Luminous

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tbh the op got it down with her, im assuming her, statement here.

 

 

 

 

I like morrigans outfit. I like isabela's outfit. Merrils as well. I also like fenris's digs. And anders robes are cool. Aveline has a kickass set of armor, and while I don't like Meredith's armor, I do like the lighter version of DA2 templar armor. I dislike sebastians and the arishocks outfits, cause ones got big dumb shoulder pads and the other looks like a armored crop top.

 

I like that dragon age, espeically dragon age 2, decided to do something daring and make characters visually unique. I like that in Da2, you had a wide range of outfits and physical appearances in the game world. It made the world feel more alive, even if the outfits and apperances weren't practical.

 

Can we all in the end agree, that making the games closer to dragon age origins in terms of armors, all of them bland and boring and same and practically sufficient for protection, would be a bad move? Can we all at least agree to that, and that keeping a good range of armors and battle gear would be more prefered to that?

 

Uhm no.... Because I adored DA:Os armours and I thought DA2 aesthetics were cartoonish and ugly. 


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#1066
Voragoras

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And? Celtic warriors used to charge into battle naked against the romans, and often scared the crap out of the roman enemy.

 

Because they tended to live in a temperate, marsh-like environment filled with trees that armour would actively hinder success in. It's why the Romans took so long to conquer Britain - the native tribes could use their home ground advantage to render the Roman formations useless, and Roman soldiers were essentially useless when taken out of their fighting comfort zone. (Even then, iirc, tribes would still cover themselves and armour the bits that they could, though probably with leather rather than full metal.)

 

Stop using inaccurate historical comparisons to make your point. At least do some damn research.


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#1067
PhroXenGold

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Because they tended to live in a temperate, marsh-like environment filled with trees that armour would actively hinder success in. It's why the Romans took so long to conquer Britain - the native tribes could use their home ground advantage to render the Roman formations useless, and Roman soldiers were essentially useless when taken out of their fighting comfort zone. (Even then, iirc, tribes would still cover themselves and armour the bits that they could, though probably with leather rather than full metal.)

 

Stop using inaccurate historical comparisons to make your point. At least do some damn research.

 

Resources and wealth were another major factor. Armour among tribal societies* was often limited to the elite and wealthy, as a) there simply wasn't enough to go round and b )  it was a status symbol so access to it was restricted. [the same can be seen with weapons. The common men typically carried spears, with only the leadership using swords.] It's pretty safe to say that the vast majority of people who fought in pitched battles (as opposed to guerilla warfare) without armour would have much much preferred to have had some.

 

 

*This also obviously applies to many non-tribal societies too. The wealthy either had armour when the poor didn't, or better quality armour when they did - look at the later medieval plate armour than has been shown of many times in this thread. You wouldn't get access to that as a peasant, even if you were part of, say, a regular town militia. You'd get, maybe, a mail coat at best. Wearing either no armour or less than optimal armour was rarely a deliberate choice. It mostly came down to what either you, or the person paying for your equipment, could and was willing to pay.


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#1068
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Considering the Celts near consistently got the snot kicked out of them by the Romans, they might not be the best example. Rome destroyed Celtic culture in Europe.

I was just about to say the same thing. Rather amusing tbh.

Also the Celts fighting naked thing is really exaggerated. All the accounts of it(I know of two Polybius, and Diodourus Siculus) mention that SOME of them fought naked, but it was a minority.
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#1069
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*This also obviously applies to many non-tribal societies too. The wealthy either had armour when the poor didn't, or better quality armour when they did - look at the later medieval plate armour than has been shown of many times in this thread. You wouldn't get access to that as a peasant, even if you were part of, say, a regular town militia. You'd get, maybe, a mail coat at best. Wearing either no armour or less than optimal armour was rarely a deliberate choice. It mostly came down to what either you, or the person paying for your equipment, could and was willing to pay.

Well a mail coat is just as expensive as plate armor. In fact, when plate started to become mass produced(munitions armor) mail was more expensive. Making mail is labor intensive. More likely a man in a town militia would be given a padded jack or gambeson of some sort. Not bad protection tbh, though obviously not as good as mail or plate.
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#1070
Voragoras

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Resources and wealth were another major factor. Armour among tribal societies* was often limited to the elite and wealthy, as a) there simply wasn't enough to go round and b )  it was a status symbol so access to it was restricted. [the same can be seen with weapons. The common men typically carried spears, with only the leadership using swords.] It's pretty safe to say that the vast majority of people who fought in pitched battles (as opposed to guerilla warfare) without armour would have much much preferred to have had some.

 

 

*This also obviously applies to many non-tribal societies too. The wealthy either had armour when the poor didn't, or better quality armour when they did - look at the later medieval plate armour than has been shown of many times in this thread. You wouldn't get access to that as a peasant, even if you were part of, say, a regular town militia. You'd get, maybe, a mail coat at best. Wearing either no armour or less than optimal armour was rarely a deliberate choice. It mostly came down to what either you, or the person paying for your equipment, could and was willing to pay.

 

Yep, pretty much. Even in Rome, before the Marian Reforms around 100BC, you had to own a certain amount of property and be decently wealthy to even join the army, because you were expected to purchase your own equipment and arms, and this is one of the most sophisticated military forces in the ancient world.


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#1071
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Nowadays game developers are taking into account a whole range of ppls gaming likes/dislikes, including features ppl also like aswell as some ppl dislike, basically game developers try an cater to a wide variety of players to sell there game.

 

If it contributes to the continued release and success of Dragon Age games for me to enjoy, i see no harm in the developers putting in "sexy" armor for ppl to use, i have nothing against it, truth be told i may actually use it depending on how it looks, what ppl do/wear/act etc in there game is of no interest to me, what i do in mine is all that matters, if there is a set of armor in Dragon Age i do not like i simply do not wear it, regardless if it full covering or not.

 

If i dont like a feature in a game im not going to cry for it to be removed, because others do like it and i aint selfish enough to deny them that fun, if you dont like "sexy" armor the hcoice is not to wear it, dont deny ppl things they enjoy on the ground of your own bias


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#1072
PhroXenGold

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Nowadays game developers are taking into account a whole range of ppls gaming likes/dislikes, including features ppl also like aswell as some ppl dislike, basically game developers try an cater to a wide variety of players to sell there game.

 

If it contributes to the continued release and success of Dragon Age games for me to enjoy, i see no harm in the developers putting in "sexy" armor for ppl to use, i have nothing against it, truth be told i may actually use it depending on how it looks, what ppl do/wear/act etc in there game is of no interest to me, what i do in mine is all that matters, if there is a set of armor in Dragon Age i do not like i simply do not wear it, regardless if it full covering or not.

 

If i dont like a feature in a game im not going to cry for it to be removed, because others do like it and i aint selfish enough to deny them that fun, if you dont like "sexy" armor the hcoice is not to wear it, dont deny ppl things they enjoy on the ground of your own bias

 

The problem, as I've mentionned several times already in this thread is that often it's not just a matter of "don't use it", because the PC is not the only character in the world. There are a hell of a lot of NPCs who wear armour as well, and if unbelievable, immersion breaking armour appears on them, then me chosing not to wear in on my character will have made no difference.

 

Now sure, if the only stripperiffic armour is available only to the PC and is purely cosmetic (i.e. stats are the same as proper armour), I have no problem what so ever with it being in the game.


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#1073
Hadeedak

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When we start talking a lot about celts on the mainland, with only vague backing, my mind goes places.

 

hall.gif

 

Not terribly accurate places, but places.

 

And to bring it back around, I'd be totally down for my causal wear being something from Asterix and Obelix. Plus or minus a random hat at all times and really expensive looking colors.



#1074
Han Shot First

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I was just about to say the same thing. Rather amusing tbh.

Also the Celts fighting naked thing is really exaggerated. All the accounts of it(I know of two Polybius, and Diodourus Siculus) mention that SOME of them fought naked, but it was a minority.

 

Agreed.

 

I view the accounts of Celts fighting completely naked similar to accounts about Viking Berserkers. No doubt there is some element of truth to them, but in both cases it probably was not common place.


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#1075
Han Shot First

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The problem, as I've mentionned several times already in this thread is that often it's not just a matter of "don't use it", because the PC is not the only character in the world. There are a hell of a lot of NPCs who wear armour as well, and if unbelievable, immersion breaking armour appears on them, then me chosing not to wear in on my character will have made no difference.

 

Now sure, if the only stripperiffic armour is available only to the PC and is purely cosmetic (i.e. stats are the same as proper armour), I have no problem what so ever with it being in the game.

 

This.

 

I'm okay with a few outlandish armors if it is limited to the PC only, and there are better, more realistic looking options as well. All NPCs who wear armor however should be outfitted in designs that look like they would perform their intended function.