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The choice between "sexy" and awesome armor


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#1151
Seraphim24

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Dunno about the others but I am being serious. 
Yes I do like attractive outfits, when I play hentai games I really do. 

 

And there's magical statements like this, you actually play hentai games?

 

It's so annoying how people trip over themselves to resist any kind of universal classification. Oh I can't stand sexy outfits in the serious setting game, and I guess you can't stand clothing in a hentai game. Jeez, what about, I don't know, combining the two? An attractive character/outfit in a serious game. OH NO NO PLEASE NO SPARE ME. Everything is just SO consistent there.

 

I think this bias is rooted in the notion that completely serious people can't also be very sexual, sort of like Isabella and Aveline. You have one super serious incompetent type and one super outgoing tramp.



#1152
someguy1231

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That's just another variant of the "but dragons, lol" argument, ie if one things isn't realistic why bother have anything look realistic, may as well have nipple lasers and massive hams for mauls.

Whether the relationships are realistic has no bearing on the issue of aesthetics.

 

I was saying that because the most common argument I see against sexy armors in DA basically amounts to "DA is a game franchise which puts great efforts toward appearing realistic and grounded". Sorry, but if I think that the game's depictions of romance and relationships aren't "realistic and grounded" at all, and I don't see any serious arguments otherwise from the people making that claim, then I think that qualifies as hypocrisy.

 

"Whether the relationships are realistic has no bearing on the issue of aesthetics."

 

It does if the reason people are opposed to a certain aesthetic is because it's "unrealistic".



#1153
Cainhurst Crow

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Everyone's trying to push their own subjective idea of whats "the dragon age theme and feel" without any proof to back up their claims.

It's an entire she said/he said oriborus circle. Why not leave it up to bioware to show what dragon age's general aesthetic is suppose to be? Because frankly outside of dragon embroidered outfits, there doesn't actually seem to be an soild, 100% pointable example of what aesthetic dragon ages world is suppose to have.
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#1154
someguy1231

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There's nothing inherently wrong with the DA romances, other than they are a bit rushed. I just believe (headcanon if you want) that I'm not seeing EVERY interaction between these people, so that some the relationship is going on behind the scenes (works better in ME when you can use the loading screens and Mass relays to this uh...effect)

 

Sorry, I don't buy that. If a game doesn't show or tell me that a certain thing happened, then it never happened.



#1155
eyezonlyii

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And there's magical statements like this, you actually play hentai games?

 

It's so annoying how people trip over themselves to resist any kind of universal classification. Oh I can't stand sexy outfits in the serious setting game, and I guess you can't stand clothing in a hentai game. Jeez, what about, I don't know, combining the two? OH NO NO PLEASE NO SPARE ME.Everything is just SO consistent there.

 

I think this bias is rooted in the notion that completely serious people can't also be very sexual, sort of like Isabella and Aveline. You have one super serious incompetent type and one super outgoing tramp.

 

Where is the balance? Oh yeah, that would be "unrealistic."

No.

 

Because those two genres are massively different. It would be like having a breakup in a romantic comedy end in a slasher film gore fest. 


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#1156
Muspade

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No.

 

Because those two genres are massively different. It would be like having a breakup in a romantic comedy end in a slasher film gore fest. 

 

So, like School days?



#1157
PhroXenGold

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And there's magical statements like this, you actually play hentai games?

 

It's so annoying how people trip over themselves to resist any kind of universal classification. Oh I can't stand sexy outfits in the serious setting game, and I guess you can't stand clothing in a hentai game. Jeez, what about, I don't know, combining the two? An attractive character/outfit in a serious game. OH NO NO PLEASE NO SPARE ME.Everything is just SO consistent there.

 

I think this bias is rooted in the notion that completely serious people can't also be very sexual, sort of like Isabella and Aveline. You have one super serious incompetent type and one super outgoing tramp.

 

No, the "bias" is rooted in the notion that wearing very little in the middle of a battle is downright stupid. We're not objecting to sexy outfits in a serious game. We're objecting to sexy outfits where it makes no sense to have sexy outfits regardless of the "seriousness" of the game.

 

And yes, I do object to characters in hentai games wearing stupid outfits. I'd much rather see full plate in battle, provided she takes it off before the sex scene.


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#1158
Seraphim24

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Screw genres and classifications, it's about universality now and everyone knows it. You can either claim it or fail at it and argue diversity of opinion is what prevented you from understanding what that happened to be at that moment.



#1159
xkg

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And there's magical statements like this, you actually play hentai games?

 

Yes I realy do. My fav one is "Bible Black". It has a great story, seriously.

 

And I have nothing against skimpy armours. If that's not the only choice then it's ok, you can have them.

I'll just put the full armor on my inquisitor and ignore the half naked one.



#1160
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I was saying that because the most common argument I see against sexy armors in DA basically amounts to "DA is a game franchise which puts great efforts toward appearing realistic and grounded". Sorry, but if I think that the game's depictions of romance and relationships aren't "realistic and grounded" at all, and I don't see any serious arguments otherwise from the people making that claim, then I think that qualifies as hypocrisy.
 
"Whether the relationships are realistic has no bearing on the issue of aesthetics."
 
It does if the reason people are opposed to a certain aesthetic is because it's "unrealistic".


Not really, one is story and one is art. A game can have super deformed chibi art and still have more realistic relationships than Dragon Age, and vice versa.
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#1161
Seraphim24

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Not really, one is story and one is art. A game can have super deformed chibi art and still have more realistic relationships than Dragon Age, and vice versa.

 

FFIX

 

Is Kuja's outfit realistic? No. Does it matter? No.



#1162
eyezonlyii

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Everyone's trying to push their own subjective idea of whats "the dragon age theme and feel" without any proof to back up their claims.

It's an entire she said/he said oriborus circle. Why not leave it up to bioware to show what dragon age's general aesthetic is suppose to be? Because frankly outside of dragon embroidered outfits, there doesn't actually seem to be an soild, 100% pointable example of what aesthetic dragon ages world is suppose to have.

Considering bikini-mail hasn't made it very far into any one of the games yet, I think we have an idea. There just aren't that many examples of scantily clad (warrior) women in Dragon Age for me at least to see that as being part of their world. Isabella was pushing it, but as people said it mostly worked because of her personality and the fact that is was less armor more clothing. Morrigan's worked because she was raised in the Wild's and thus was more expressive of both her opinions and her sexuality as it was all just natural to her. None of the female NPC's that I can think of outside of these women had this sort of look/personality. 

 

The Qunari in DA2 could be an exception, or they could not be. The Arishok wore armor,but not many others did. Maybe armor is earned in the Qunari culture. 


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#1163
PhroXenGold

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Yes I realy do. My fav one is "Bible Black". It has a great story, seriously

 

Bible Black was OK, but there are far far better Eroge Visual Novels out there. Things like G-Senjou No Maou, Comyu, Demonbane, Fate Stay Night, Tsukihime, Muv Luv (well, Alternative, the first two aren't great), Ayakashibito, Kara No Shojou....


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#1164
Cainhurst Crow

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What fun is there in making sense tbh? And what is decided as making sense or not? Women weren't considered to logically be fighting in a battlefield during most of human history. Not believing in god was thought to be complete nonsense, violent insanity even, throughout most of time. Should we enforce these things into dragon age? Maybe reverse them given the power of the andrastian church and its matriarchy structure and say only women are allowed on battlefields and men are bared from doing most everything else other then kitchen and farm duties. Who decides what actually does and doesn't make sense anyway? Whose subjective viewpoint are we using to set our objective bar of measurment here?
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#1165
eyezonlyii

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FFIX

 

Is Kuja's outfit realistic? No. Does it matter? No.

but it fits with the rest of the imagery. 


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#1166
AbsolutGrndZer0

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We need 4 camps.

1. Practicalists: Heavy utilitarians who only desire for all things to be dictated by practicality and logic. If its not full body armor or modern day equivilent dress, that's no good.

2. Pluralists: They believe in choice, the ability for multiple options to exist so that everyone can have their armor choice. Whether ultra revealing or classical knight attire, they want everyone to get at least some form of personal freedom for their characters.

3. Fictional Cyrenaics: Fun and enjoyment are the ultimate goals when it comes to fiction, anything else is unneccisary and a distraction. Doesn't matter the design nor the implications behind it, if its fun, its good to go.

4. Post-Modernists: It doesn't matter about the outfits because all it is, is imposing one world view upon another and forcing the creators to bend the knee to social constructs. Let the designers make the designes and stop perpetrating a collective lie.

 

Okay, I very much like your groups better, and therefore I can now say i am a PLURALIST!


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#1167
Cainhurst Crow

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Considering bikini-mail hasn't made it very far into any one of the games yet, I think we have an idea. There just aren't that many examples of scantily clad (warrior) women in Dragon Age for me at least to see that as being part of their world. Isabella was pushing it, but as people said it mostly worked because of her personality and the fact that is was less armor more clothing. Morrigan's worked because she was raised in the Wild's and thus was more expressive of both her opinions and her sexuality as it was all just natural to her. None of the female NPC's that I can think of outside of these women had this sort of look/personality. 
 
The Qunari in DA2 could be an exception, or they could not be. The Arishok wore armor,but not many others did. Maybe armor is earned in the Qunari culture. 


You say bikini mail as if that's the only way swimsuit-esque outfits could come about. To quote a fairly good movie from the 90;s.

Mithra.jpg

"Life Finds A Way" - Seth Brundle, Death Wish.

#1168
someguy1231

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Not really, one is story and one is art. A game can have super deformed chibi art and still have more realistic relationships than Dragon Age, and vice versa.

 

Then why do people still believe that DA is "realistic"? Why do people still claim that sexy armor has no place in DA because it would be "unrealistic", while implicitly admitting that DA's depiction of romance and relationships is "unrealistic"? Why are relationships allowed to be "unrealistic" but armor isn't? And that isn't a variant of "but dragons, lol", as you put it. Romances between characters, at least characters who are supposed to be human or humanized to us, are independent of the setting they inhabit.

 

Like I said a few pages back, the reason I'm so hung up on words like "realistic" is that I think the most important thing about a game is that it be fun to play. I also think that realism is antithetical to fun and I've never played a game where an increased focus on "realism" made a game more fun for me. That's why it really irritates me that people are apparently being selective over where DA can be "realistic". Not only do I not like realism in games, the people who are advocating it seem to be hypocrites about it.



#1169
cheydancer

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I usually play through a game in its original form at least once, more if it's got a mesmerizing story and good strong character design.  Then I look for mods.  Usually for sexy guy armor.  So tired of the bikini stuff for ladies and zip, bang, nada for the guys. 

Skyrim got modded almost out of the box.  Even the girls seemed a little ~ick~, Dragon Age I played a lot before I went to the PC for mods. Long hair for the guys and more color choice was a win.

Since I play male characters 90% of the time and spend tons, sometimes, hundreds of hours with them, I want to enjoy looking at them.  :D  Yes.  I am a little shallow that way.  I claim anime and Square Enix did it to me and that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  ^_^


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#1170
xkg

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Okay, I very much like your groups better, and therefore I can now say i am a PLURALIST!

 

Same here. If there's a choice, as long as it doesn't affect me / can't hurt me or any other people (whether it comes to sexuality or religion or outfit or beliefs etc, etc) I dont care. 


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#1171
PhroXenGold

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Then why do people still believe that DA is "realistic"? Why do people still claim that sexy armor has no place in DA because it would be "unrealistic", while implicitly admitting that DA's depiction of romance and relationships is "unrealistic"? Why are relationships allowed to be "unrealistic" but armor isn't? And that isn't a variant of "but dragons, lol", as you put it. Romances between characters, at least characters who are supposed to be human or humanized to us, are independent of the setting they inhabit.

 

Like I said a few pages back, the reason I'm so hung up on words like "realistic" is that I think the most important thing about a game is that it be fun to play. I also think that realism is antithetical to fun and I've never played a game where an increased focus on "realism" made a game more fun for me. That's why it really irritates me that people are apparently being selective over where DA can be "realistic". Not only do I not like realism in games, the people who are advocating it seem to be hypocrites about it.

 

Yeah, realism is the wrong word. Most games that go for full on "realism" do indeed tend to be boring for me as well. But when I say I'm looking for "realism" in a game like DA, it's somewhat different from, say, ARMA. I'll point you at this post I made earlier in this thread that explains what people who say "realism" in regards to games like this mean:

 

 

I see this kind of comment a lot when regarding fantasy games, and, while there might some level of poor word choice on behalf of us saying we want "realism", it's a decent shorthand and things like this really display a basic lack of understanding of what we're after. And that, fundamentally, is internal consistency. Regardless of what the content of a fictional world is, said world should have rules by which it works, and it should follow them. Otherwise, it will fail at the most basic goal of storytelling - suspending belief. If the way in which the setting works is clearly presented, and something then comes along and utterly ignores that, it breaks immersion. It makes it harder to suspend your belief and pretend that the fiction world you're experiencing is real. Of course, breaking the rules of a setting can, if done well, add to a story - for example, if the big bad can use spells that don't adhere to the way magic works in the setting - however, this has to be carefully done and just throwing out things not adhering to those basic rules willy-nilly without explanation is very poor storytelling that results in an un-immersive world.

 

So, yes, having magic and dragons isn't realistic. But the way in which magic works, the way in which dragons behave, should be consistent. And the same applies to armour. I don't have a fundamental issue if, right from the beginning, the game clearly demonstrates - or even better, outright states - that having actual functionality from armour is unnecessary (likely because of magic). In such a setting, chain-mail bikini's are fine. On the other hand, full plate really isn't. There absolutely no reason to wear a full suit of armour when it does nothing. To see a character in full plate next to one in a few scraps of mail is inconsistent and thus immersion breaking.

 

Dragon Age has set out to present the opposite - in Thedas, armour does protect you. The thickness of armour, the coverage it gives, the materials it is made of, even the quality of craftsmanship, all of these things effect the protection armour offers. So if a character suddenly turns up exposing most of their skin while still having the same level of armour protection as a suit of full plate, it is again inconsistent. It breaks the fundamental rules by which the setting functions. So, yeah, to be fair, saying we want "realistic" armour might not be the exact best term. Instead, what we're really looking for is armour that is consistent with the mechanics of the Dragon Age world. And that happens to be armour that roughly corresponds to that used in our history.

 

Actually, sorry, reading your post again maybe I slightly misunderstood you. You might not've been quite questioning the use of "realism" the way I though you were. Or maybe you were. It's late, I'm sleepy :P

 

 But I'll leave that there anyway. Because overall, it does sum up what we're after - a believable world. And that is what we find fun to play. I'm not by any means going to claim everyone is like that. But of course I'm going to push for what I find believable and fun in a fatnatsy setting.

 

Anyway, in regards to romances, yeah, people, including myself, have been objecting to them not being believable in this very thread...


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#1172
Lady Luminous

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And there's magical statements like this, you actually play hentai games?

 

It's so annoying how people trip over themselves to resist any kind of universal classification. Oh I can't stand sexy outfits in the serious setting game, and I guess you can't stand clothing in a hentai game. Jeez, what about, I don't know, combining the two? An attractive character/outfit in a serious game. OH NO NO PLEASE NO SPARE ME. Everything is just SO consistent there.

 

I think this bias is rooted in the notion that completely serious people can't also be very sexual, sort of like Isabella and Aveline. You have one super serious incompetent type and one super outgoing tramp.

 

So are you saying that you don't find this outfit attractive in the slightest? :28b44d1af71bbfa2ec4a151d3b8acecf.jpg


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#1173
Seraphim24

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Not. In. The. Slightest.

agrias.jpg

 

is better for being purely conservative IMO. At least it has color.



#1174
Han Shot First

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Then why do people still believe that DA is "realistic"? Why do people still claim that sexy armor has no place in DA because it would be "unrealistic", while implicitly admitting that DA's depiction of romance and relationships is "unrealistic"? Why are relationships allowed to be "unrealistic" but armor isn't? 

 

Because they both might not necessarily strain suspension of disbelief to an equal degree.

 

Take a game like Mass Effect as an example. People are able to suspend disbelief about faster than light travel because it gets an in-universe explanation through element zero and mass effect physics. It makes sense for the game world even if it doesn't for the real world. If Shepard were depicted as surviving prolonged unprotected exposure to the hard vacuum of space however, the same people who suspend disbelief for FTL would probably cry foul, because the human body and its limitations are what they are. The latter strains suspension disbelief to a greater degree.

 

I think most people also realize the limitations of games when it comes to depicting romances between characters. By necessity you've got to boil that down to just a handful of conversations. It is not unlike the movies, even romance flicks, where you're really just viewing snippets of these characters lives rather than the entirety of it. Lets say the events of DA:I stretch over a period of six months. Presumably the main character and the love interest talk more than a handful of times over those six months, but the player just eavesdrops on the bits that are important to the story or those characters' arcs.

 

Also can you imagine a fully realistic portrayal of a romance? It would be mind-numbingly boring. I'm not sure I'd want to hear every conversation that a couple has. In fiction (and I include games with that) we don't need to hear, see, or read every mundane detail of the characters' lives.


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#1175
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Then why do people still believe that DA is "realistic"?


Aesthetically it has that flavor. Realistic isn't strictly the right word, but it's easy to use for lack of a better one.
 

And that isn't a variant of "but dragons, lol", as you put it. Romances between characters, at least characters who are supposed to be human or humanized to us, are independent of the setting they inhabit.


"But dragons, lol" is silly too because the existence of an "unreal" creature doesn't make the humans less human either in their appearance or in their motivation to protect their vital organs. At least in the former way, pointing out unrealistic relationships is comparable in that they are also irrelevant to the aesthetic of the game. I admit it's not the best comparison I've ever made.
 

Like I said a few pages back, the reason I'm so hung up on words like "realistic" is that I think the most important thing about a game is that it be fun to play. I also think that realism is antithetical to fun and I've never played a game where an increased focus on "realism" made a game more fun for me. That's why it really irritates me that people are apparently being selective over where DA can be "realistic". Not only do I not like realism in games, the people who are advocating it seem to be hypocrites about it.


It's selective and not hypocritical, you're just reading too much into it. And some people do find the art style they are espousing, "fun." Surely you don't have a problem with that, even if the way they describe it isn't to your liking.
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