2576 réponses à ce sujet

[Remmirath]

I would point to literally every successful original game concept ever made as having made tons of money without being specifically targeted these exact X, Y, Z groups. All of them were based around very simple and universal themes for the most part. Pretty much every game released by Nintendo is part of their attempts to appeal to "all gamers everywhere." Casual or hardcore. Super Mario 1 sold what... 41 million? That's more than every Bioware game combined ever. Of course, obviously they were interested in making money and having success, that's not the question, the point is they made that success money with universality not with diversity.

I didn't say that one would make more money by appealing to a more distinct niche. I said that I believe that one will get better quality that way. Yes, you'll certainly make the most money if you can sell the most copies. Nobody's ever going to contest that, because it's a fact. Unfortunately, that is often the main if not only driving motivation of companies of all sorts.

A roleplaying game is already not an inherently simple or universal concept, so it's already not going to appeal to as large a base of people. The more you take away the roleplaying elements or add in elements from other genres, the less it will appeal to many people who are specifically interested in roleplaying games. It's not the same thing as Tetris, or even Mario or that sort of thing. So long as you keep it to elements that all work together reasonably well, adding in a bunch of different elements can work. When you start trying to appeal to subsets of people who hold directly opposing opinions, it begins to break down (for instance, it's rather clear that one will not come up with a roleplaying game that both you and I will like equally).

It's a different philosophy, I suppose. I tend to measure success by quality, how much people like the thing in question, and enduring appeal, not by amount of money made. Some of the simple games do meet those requirements, of course, but so do a good number of less simple, less sold games.

I do think that one is more likely to have a general loyalty to a company of franchise that consistently produces the sort of thing you're looking for, rather than one that attempts to cater to whatever the general mood of the time is. It may or may not matter to sales figures, though; I don't have enough information to back that up one way or another.
 

Nice attempt at building the controversial question into a given assumption, and then presenting a practically rhetorical superficial question. I'm going to start ignoring you if you keep that up here.

I'm not sure who you were addressing there. I didn't ask any question, so presumably not me?

[AresKeith]

The Freeman in those gameplay videos (who I still think is Orlesian) has some nice armor

[eyezonlyii]

The Freeman in those gameplay videos (who I still think is Orlesian) has some nice armor

I am utterly distracted by your avatar...totally unfair to bring that into a discussion.

[Seraphim24]

You mean like you constantly calling people liars when they state they aren't interested in sexy armor?

 

Well, no, it's not like that, I wasn't calling that person a liar I was saying we were arguing about universality and they subsumed that question under the guise of a much more rhetorical and obvious one.

 

Moreover, when I've asked for people's outside interests, and low and behold people are like I really like porn, I play H games, whatever it is. I consider that evidence for support of interest in sexiness. It seems like it's obvious to just connect the dots that maybe people really care about sexiness. I can take what someone says they want and try and extrapolate a conclusion based on that right? I wouldn't call that is calling them a liar, and people have clearly taken issue with that extrapolation time and time again.

 

I accept everyone's statements at face value, but when I proceed to make sense of that in a greater context, people immediately get all puffy. They say oh it's because the context is different etc, there have only been a very small group (maybe 1) that has declared no interest in sexiness of any kind, or sex of any kind, or people of any kind. I haven't denied the inherent distaste that people appear to have, fundamentally. Instead, I've frequently questioned whether they just have an interest in sex or attractiveness at all, then attempted to drag that fact into the picture.

 

That might seem like a small difference but it's quite real to me. For instance, I haven't called anyone a 'liar' for supporting a reality argument, I've just questioned how they can arrive at a reality based argument for that, but not other things such as magic or dragons or whatever, etc.

[Gill Kaiser]

People may like sexiness in general, but not want it in places where it doesn't belong. It's all about coherence and tone.

[Lady Luminous]

People may like sexiness in general, but not want it in places where it doesn't belong. It's all about coherence and tone.

 

And mood! Sure one evening all I'll want to do is watch some porn, and other nights I want to game. That doesn't mean I want porn in my game.

[eyezonlyii]

Well, no, it's not like that, I wasn't calling that person a liar I was saying we were arguing about universality and they subsumed that question under the guise of a much more rhetorical and obvious one.

 

Moreover, when I've asked for people's outside interests, and low and behold people are like I really like porn, I play H games, whatever it is. I consider that evidence for support of interest in sexiness. It seems like it's obvious to just connect the dots that maybe people really care about sexiness. I can take what someone says they want and try and extrapolate a conclusion based on that right? I wouldn't call that is calling them a liar, and people have clearly taken issue with that extrapolation time and time again.

 

I accept everyone's statements at face value, but when I proceed to make sense of that in a greater context, people immediately get all puffy. They say oh it's because the context is different etc, there have only been a very small group (maybe 1) that has declared no interest in sexiness of any kind, or sex of any kind, or people of any kind. I haven't denied the inherent distaste that people appear to have, fundamentally. Instead, I've frequently questioned whether they just have an interest in sex or attractiveness at all, then attempted to drag that fact into the picture.

 

That might seem like a small difference but it's quite real to me. For instance, I haven't called anyone a 'liar' for supporting a reality argument, I've just questioned how they can arrive at a reality based argument for that, but not other things such as magic or dragons or whatever, etc.

You question it because you refuse to believe what people are telling you.

 

It's different because the magic and dragons or whatever are integral to that world, just as physics and lions are integral to ours. The difference between those elements and people wanting internal consistency with regards to armor is the fact that men and women in both worlds wear armor to negate/deflect/mitigate damage. No one is meta, as in with extra tough skin (until DA2 Aveline), and the abilities aren't supposed to be so. Therefore, when a warrior is a frontline fighter, she will put on heavier armor to protect herself. It's the rules of the world of Thedas. Unlike say FF or something, where even in cut scenes, the level of armor doesn't matter because it's more about the rule of cool (not that is in anyway bad, it's just a difference in the philosophy behind the foundations of the game world).

The stats on the armor also (in most cases) support this. The heavier the armor, the more damage it protected you from, but at least in DA:O, the more fatigue it burdened you with; spells and talents cost more to use. Also one drew more aggro from enemies. You see scores of people in armor, yet the only people in less than realistic armor are those who are either in the party or culturally alien (Qunari in DA2). 

 

And yes, you have called people a liar, maybe not that person directly above our quotes, but a more than a few times in multiple pages when people have told you that they aren't interested in sex for whatever reason, or whatever purpose. 

 

So my personal revelation (though if anyone has read my posts before, it shouldn't be a shock):

I'm a homosexual male. I am very sexual, love sensuality, and yes, I do have a type of man I go for. I tend to look at men critically all day, I can't help it, sex is ALWAYS on my mind, not necessarily the act itself, but just the way a person would look in an intimate space, especially if I find them attractive. That being said, I find the aesthetic beauty in women as well. I know what I am attracted to in a woman, even if I (so far) have never been overtly aroused by one. Masculine, or rather statuesque women are my favorite, and I have no illusions that this is more than likely tied to me being attracted to men. HOWEVER, I can see the appeal of a more demure, feminine woman as well, and even find scores of them attractive. I'm not repulsed by female sexuality, it just doesn't interest me in the least. Therefore, when I play a game, I would rather see a woman who is defined by her presence moreso than her appearance.

 

And that is what the problem is for me. There are so few women in major protagonistic positions within games and media in general who aren't in some way solely defined by some part of her secondary characteristics. I want to see more women like Cassandra (who is so beautiful to me), or Vivienne, who could be my sister. I like to see women represented as more than just pretty princesses or sultry sirens. 

[Seraphim24]

I am very sexual, love sensuality, and yes, I do have a type of man I go for. I tend to look at men critically all day, I can't help it, sex is ALWAYS on my mind, not necessarily the act itself, but just the way a person would look in an intimate space, especially if I find them attractive. That being said, I find the aesthetic beauty in women as well. I know what I am attracted to in a woman, even if I (so far) have never been overtly aroused by one.

 

See I look at that, and

 

  I can see the appeal of a more demure, feminine woman as well, and even find scores of them attractive. I'm not repulsed by female sexuality

 

 

I look at this and then I see

 

it just doesn't interest me in the least. Therefore, when I play a game, I would rather see a woman who is defined by her presence moreso than her appearance.

 

I am baffled. It sounds like you are a sex fiend engaged with porn for 4 hours out of every day from the first paragraph, highly attentive to displays of sex appeal and sexuality generally, but when it comes to representing sexuality in game? NO.

 

That's the discrepancy I'm tuned into, I'm not calling you a liar, I'm noting a discrepancy.

 

Obviously all the stuff about realism has been beaten into the earth, so rather than repeat all that I would just refer back to all those myriad discussions. Is it a compelling argument? I don't know.. I don't really think so, it's a video game, it's meant to entertain, plus there's all the other stuff about arbitrariness and again I just don't want to do that all again.

 

I also found it more than a little curious that you singled out women as being provocative being bad in your final paragraphs there, you chose not to include men, which suggests a kind of sexism with respect to who is allowed to wear revealing outfits, at least in your world. /Shrug.

[Lady Luminous]

See I look at that, and

 

 

I look at this and then I see

 

 

I am baffled. It sounds like you are a sex fiend engaged with porn for 4 hours out of every day from the first paragraph, but when it comes to representing sexuality in game? NO.

 

That's the discrepancy I'm tuned into, I'm not calling you a liar, I'm noting a discrepancy.

 

Obviously all the stuff about realism has been beaten into the earth, so rather than repeat it I would just refer back to all that.

 

I also found it more than a little curious that you singled out women as being provocative being bad in your final paragraphs there, you chose not to include men, which suggests a kind of sexism with respect to who is allowed to wear revealing outfits, at least in your world. /Shrug.

 

 

Oh my god, you baffle me. Do you realize that when you say things like that it's akin to saying "Because you like to read books it means you can't like to watch tv"? There is a time and a place and a mood for everything. 

 

Just because someone likes sex (none said anything about being a fiend or watching porn for 4 hours a day, that's a ridiculous assumption) it doesn't mean that they want to see sex in everything they do or watch!

[Seraphim24]

Except this isn't about porn or sex, it's just the clothes a person wears, much more tame than all of that. Plus I wasn't saying what people can or can't do, I'm just wondering why there's always this gap between people's private actions and public requirements, especially in a video game. If people were literally going out to the arctic winter to kill polar bears, I would say stash the outfit, but um, just so we're clear, this isn't reality, it's a video game.

 

I can understand someone wanting to shape a person's carnal desires into something more "respectable," but that sounds puritanical doesn't it? How do you channel a person's fascination with frilly undergarments and porn into a respectable story without sounding like an ominopotent Orwellian Nazi?

 

For me, that outfit doesn't really represent anything too ridiculous on that front. For that reason, it's absence doesn't have a major impact either, for the most part. You don't have to deny people's attraction to that but you also aren't implying that an interest in that kind of thing means your sex addicted or whatever.

 

I also think your taking the comment about porn for 4 hours a day a bit too literally there...

[Dark Helmet]

I'd really rather just have armor that looks like armor.

[Gill Kaiser]

Sex appeal is fine if it makes sense in context. It doesn't make sense for the majority of characters to dress in a sexual manner for combat, that's all. It's not a hard concept to grasp, surely...

[Seraphim24]

No it's not, I disagree that it's necessary in a fictional video game. I think it detracts from the fun and the ability to just let go and be charmed by interesting styles and imagination. I'm hoping that's not a hard concept either.

[Lady Luminous]

Sex appeal is fine if it makes sense in context. It doesn't make sense for the majority of characters to dress in a sexual manner for combat, that's all. It's not a hard concept to grasp, surely...

 

Exactly. Why am I dressing cute or sexy to go into the deeproads to kill spiders and darkspawn?

 

I like my wardrobe to reflect my actions, whether that's in game or offline.

[eyezonlyii]

Oh my god, you baffle me. Do you realize that when you say things like that it's akin to saying "Because you like to read books it means you can't like to watch tv"? There is a time and a place and a mood for everything. 

 

Just because someone likes sex (none said anything about being a fiend or watching porn for 4 hours a day, that's a ridiculous assumption) it doesn't mean that they want to see sex in everything they do or watch!

exactly what i was about to type in my refutation!

 

See I look at that, and

 

 

I look at this and then I see

 

 

I am baffled. It sounds like you are a sex fiend engaged with porn for 4 hours out of every day from the first paragraph, highly attentive to displays of sex appeal and sexuality generally, but when it comes to representing sexuality in game? NO.

 

That's the discrepancy I'm tuned into, I'm not calling you a liar, I'm noting a discrepancy.

 

Obviously all the stuff about realism has been beaten into the earth, so rather than repeat all that I would just refer back to all those myriad discussions. Is it a compelling argument? I don't know.. I don't really think so, it's a video game, it's meant to entertain, plus there's all the other stuff about arbitrariness and again I just don't want to do that all again.

 

I also found it more than a little curious that you singled out women as being provocative being bad in your final paragraphs there, you chose not to include men, which suggests a kind of sexism with respect to who is allowed to wear revealing outfits, at least in your world. /Shrug.

 

So now that the first part has been dealt with by @CaptivatingKS, on to the next:

I'm not saying that women being provocative is bad. I'm saying because that is the default state for women in entertainment, THAT IS BAD. Men, specifically straight men (and we know I could get even more specific than that...) have the ability and luxery to be represented in many different ways, under many different guises and no one bats an eye until they're specifically not straight. A man with his torso showing, unarmored like Iron Bull, isn't displayed for the sexual appetite of women and gay men and whoever else that may be sexually aroused or titillated by him. Do i enjoy the view, sure, but it's not done for enjoyment necessarily, it's done to show that this character is strong, and able to defend himself.

 

Except this isn't about porn or sex, it's just the clothes a person wears, much more tame than all of that. Plus I wasn't saying what people can or can't do, I'm just wondering why there's always this gap between people's private actions and public requirements, especially in a video game. If people were literally going out to the arctic winter to kill polar bears, I would say stash the outfit, but um, just so we're clear, this isn't reality, it's a video game.

 

Lastly, we may not be going out and slaying polar bears, but our characters are. That could also be a reason for the difference. People who want more realistic armor may be inserting themselves further into the game than you are and thus are judging the avatar's appearance on how they would dress in that situation.

[Joe-Poe]

And mood! Sure one evening all I'll want to do is watch some porn, and other nights I want to game. That doesn't mean I want porn in my game.

Why not have it in the game that way you get the best of both worlds and dont have to do one or the other......  I jest....but really why not

[Lady Luminous]

Lastly, we may not be going out and slaying polar bears, but our characters are. That could also be a reason for the difference. People who want more realistic armor may be inserting themselves further into the game than you are and thus are judging the avatar's appearance on how they would dress in that situation.

 

Exactly. I like being in a world where the things my character does and wears makes sense. I like the realism even while being in a fictional world; why should I wear a pink gemstone bikini while wielding a sword?

[Lady Luminous]

Why not have it in the game that way you get the best of both worlds and dont have to do one or the other......  I jest....but really why not

I like the seperation of my smut and my action

[eyezonlyii]

I like the seperation of my smut and my action

most of the time anyway...

[Seraphim24]

Exactly. I like being in a world where the things my character does and wears makes sense. I like the realism even while being in a fictional world; why should I wear a pink gemstone bikini while wielding a sword?

 

Cause your inner-most child wants to! Guh... what am I even saying... if you guys just really REAALLLLY want to have no fun or frills or anything in your world I'm sure you can have it.

 

I don't think that's a good plan long term, if people aren't getting the exciting/fun things in life in their video games where are they going to get it exactly? It's flawed and yes puritanical to my mind and a dozen other things but clearly I am in the minority in this respect. How an interest in sex and attractive outfits ever became a minority position is beyond me.

[Gill Kaiser]

No it's not, I disagree that it's necessary in a fictional video game. I think it detracts from the fun and the ability to just let go and be charmed by interesting styles and imagination. I'm hoping that's not a hard concept either.

It's not, but I fundamentally disagree with it when it comes to games which strive for any sense of realism at all. The approach you are advocating is valid, but only for certain types of games and certain types of design ethos.

 

You can't lump all video games or fiction into one thing. There is a vast range within the medium.

[Cyonan]

No it's not, I disagree that it's necessary in a fictional video game. I think it detracts from the fun and the ability to just let go and be charmed by interesting styles and imagination. I'm hoping that's not a hard concept either.

 

Many people think it adds to the fun because they like how it looks and despite liking the more sexy armour that doesn't mean we want to see it in absolutely every game.

 

We were hoping that wasn't a hard concept, too =P

[Seraphim24]

It's not, but I fundamentally disagree with it when it comes to games which strive for any sense of realism at all. The approach you are advocating is valid, but only for certain types of games and certain types of design ethos.

 

You can't lump all video games or fiction into one thing. There is a vast range within the medium.

 

I'd argue the opposite, only a handful of things seem to predominate within entertainment. Arguably Dragon Age is simply Tolkein's LOTR, a hundred years later. Not to mention the bazillion different sequels to the exact same ideas. World of Warcraft is Tokein. GoT is a gritter Tolkein.

 

I myself seem to be drawn continuously towards sort of highly ordered or disciplined Japanese games (Zelda, Demon Souls, etc), or crazed or psychotic Jinx or Sera like characters/themes in Western games. I think the reason for that is they strike me as striving towards the same thing, something in the middle there, that everyone can relate to, I think they are primed to be lumped into one thing.

 

I probably wouldn't advocate this kind of thing in a Final Fantasy game because frankly they already have enough of it there. Also DA to my mind has pretty much completely abandoned the truly controversial ideas and such that were left on the table in BG, it moved far off center with DA:O, but still retained a degree of that, and now it's deep into left field and pretty far away from the center.

[Br3admax]

I don't think that's a good plan long term, if people aren't getting the exciting/fun things in life in their video games where are they going to get it exactly? It's flawed and yes puritanical to my mind and a dozen other things but clearly I am in the minority in this respect. 

"Sexy armor" adds these things for you? Generally I think about the game itself, but I guess the armor could carry the whole thing.....for some people. 

[Lady Luminous]

Cause your inner-most child wants to! Guh... what am I even saying... if you guys just really REAALLLLY want to have no fun or frills or anything in your world I'm sure you can have it.

 

I don't think that's a good plan long term, if people aren't getting the exciting/fun things in life in their video games where are they going to get it exactly? It's flawed and yes puritanical to my mind and a dozen other things but clearly I am in the minority in this respect. How an interest in sex and attractive outfits ever became a minority position is beyond me.

 

I have fun when I vault an ogre and bury my dagger in its forehead.

 

You act like there aren't hundreds of games and comics out there that offer exactly what you're looking for. Why not stick to jrpgs if wrpgs don't have the flash you're looking for?