2576 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

Pretty sure it wasn't your grammar he had a problem with lol. It was about the statement holding up your whole argument being factually, substantively incorrect. That clarification you added would just make it even more incorrect, if anything.

I think you both could provide some data rather than just beating each other over the head with unsupported facts, but either of those would be better than this temper tantrum you just threw.

If you wanted to abandon your claim that JRPGs sell better and just focus on people answering some question you asked a long time ago, then you should do so honestly and admit you were full of it when you made that claim.

Honestly I wasn't even being rude when I pointed that out...

[Revan Reborn]

<snip>

Where did BioWare ever attack other studios about sexism and how genders are represented in games? The only thing BioWare has attempted to do is be more inclusive and make a game that appeals to more than just straight, male gamers. Most games don't make that effort. I don't see that necessarily being a fault or otherwise. I certainly don't believe BioWare thinks they are "better" than everyone else because they have a different approach. Most studios will just do whatever it takes to make the most money, so they cater to the majority.

 

Do you really believe Japan is more inclusive of genders and sexual orientations? In a lot of ways, Japan is more culturally conservative when it comes to gender roles than the West is. Quite honestly though, your point and arguments are so convoluted that whatever points and assertions you tend to make just don't really make a lot of sense. Either way, you vote with your money. If the aesthetics of BioWare games or any other Western developers really bother you that much, don't support their games. It is ultimately the gaming community that determines what is a success and what is not.

 

When we start to bring in social issues such as sexism and aesthetic appeal, it becomes incredibly subjective as everybody has their own opinions and it's quite ridiculous for anyone to assume the full intent of what these developers are thinking, WRPGs or JRPGs.

[Muspade]

<Snip>

 

So "Because dragon's", armor is unnecessary in Dragon age?

[Remmirath]

Here's what annoyed me about this topic: lots of other women declare that more revealing armor is exploitative and sexualized but then spend weeks at the gym preparing for bikini season so they can show off that new two piece.

Why is that a problem? Why can they not want their characters to wear realistic armour, while wanting themselves to wear something revealing (clothing, not for protection)? I may not understand the desire to appear appealing in that way, or indeed to be much concerned about appearances at all, but I can certainly see it as not being at all the same thing.
 

As a woman (mid twenties) I like both revealing armor and realistic armor. I tend to use more revealing armor because my female characters don't have to deal with cellulite and love handles, they always look amazing. I feel the characters I play should be proud and secure in their looks enough to wear whatever they want. Quite frankly I'm tired of people screaming that sexuality is bad, and that I should feel bad for liking revealing armor. These are pixels, not real people. It's a fantasy. Do people not realize that?

Being proud and secure is great, and there's nothing wrong with liking revealing armour. It is a fantasy, yes, but within the context of the game the characters are actually going into battle. Some people care about that more than others, of course, but I do believe that I wouldn't be amiss in saying that Dragon Age is generally aimed more towards people who care about believability within the context of the setting and such things, so having practical armour be the default makes sense. Few if any people have said that they believe it should be the only option, only that if there were to be no option, it would be better for it to be practical armour than impractical armour (practical here referring not only to revealing/not revealing, but just general plausability as armour).

I don't think anybody has said that sexuality is bad, just that it does not (realistically) have any place in protective gear, and they doubt that anybody actually gearing up for battle would be more concerned about how good they look than how likely they are to survive the coming fight.
 

Fantasy does not equal reality, and deviating from realism in a fantasy world doesn't ruin my immersion. I understand that it messes with other peoples immersion, but that's why revealing and realistic armor should be a CHOICE.

Indeed! It should be a choice. The only reason that I argue so specifically about the nature of the choice is that I've seen many games where it either is a choice, in that if you search really hard you can find a suit or two of more-but-still-not-entirely-reasonable armour for female characters, or that it's a very uneven choice for male and female characters.

[Revan Reborn]

I truly feel that it is better to have all options open to both male and female characters to use as they see fit, rather than insisting that female characters must be differentiated from male characters (as that is typically how the argument goes: if one isn't certain if an armoured figure is male, and it is, it is rarely complained about).

That said, a lot of interesting suggestions have indeed been lost and skipped over.

I'm not suggesting vastly different. The cover art of the male and female Inquisitor wearing the same armor with slight differences is a reasonable approach. My rationale has more to do with differences in the male and female anatomy and less to do with "men should wear pants and women should wear skirts." More choice and freedom is generally always a good thing. Ultimately, I believe BioWare needs to do whatever stays true to Dragon Age and fits into the ever-expanding world they are building.

[xkg]

Also, where are you getting your figures from? I presume it's here, but the total reported sales for SCV is 0.69m, and when I checked the cumulative sales in the Bandai Namco fiscal report, the total reported sales is 1.38m cumulative sales, so I wonder about the accuracy of the figures and their sources.

 

That one I can explain you. 

0.69 is for the PS3 platform (in the link you've posted)

another 0.54 is for XBox http://www.vgchartz..../soulcalibur-v/

 

0.69 + 0.54 = 1.23

 

They are listing only retail . I guess the rest, 0.15 , is from the digital.

 

They are pretty accurate as you can see.

 

Besiedes that, good post. +1

[Voragoras]

That one I can explain you. 

0.69 is for the PS3 platform (in the link you've posted)

another 0.54 is for XBox http://www.vgchartz..../soulcalibur-v/

 

0.69 + 0.54 = 1.23

 

They are listing only retail . I guess the rest, 0.15 , is from the digital.

 

They are pretty accurate as you can see.

 

Besiedes that, good post. +1

 

Ah, I see. That makes substantially more sense. Thanks!

 

Casual inquiry, though: Does anybody know the market saturation for Japanese fighting games? I'd assume that has a lot to do with the sales figures, when your only option for buying a fighter is Japanese.

[Kharn-ivor]

1) No matter which way you slice it, Japanese games of almost any make are more popular in the west than Japan, and western games are frequently only popular in the west, by some considerable margin.

 

2) Which returns to my original question, how do you explain this difference? For me, it's simple, they take one look at a Vivienne's absurd dress or DA:I Inquisitor wearing this ridiculous helmet and panther/snake pants and go um, ew.

1) So western games aren't popular in Japan, that could just mean Japan is insular.

 This seems much more likely too me when you look at what sells in Japan (both in terms of games and hardware)

 

2) Holy non sequitur batman, the reasons why some JRPGs sell well in the west is going to be more complex than people think the asthetics are better.

 

You can obviously like whatever the hell you want, but stop trying to proove that JRPGs are just superior and thus WRPGs should conform.

And before anyone thinks I just randomly hate Japan, my favourite films are from there, the likes of Ran and Rashomon(both of wish really don't rely on over the top visual or shallow philosophy)

[tmp7704]

Here's what annoyed me about this topic: lots of other women declare that more revealing armor is exploitative and sexualized but then spend weeks at the gym preparing for bikini season so they can show off that new two piece.

(..)

Fantasy does not equal reality, and deviating from realism in a fantasy world doesn't ruin my immersion. I understand that it messes with other peoples immersion, but that's why revealing and realistic armor should be a CHOICE.

The complaints about revealing armour are probably easier to understand when you take into account they typically refer to situation where the skimpy armour isn't a choice but the only available option. Especially the cases where the male characters aren't given the same treatment.

Such "not a choice" situations are what sets it apart from deliberate choice one makes themselves to wear a bikini in RL.

It's also what for some may sour the option of skimpy gear in cases where it actually is just one of the options -- fostering a "i get enough of this **** forced on me everywhere else, i don't want to see this as "option" to remind me of that yet again' sentiment.

[Shadow Fox]

Ah, I see. That makes substantially more sense. Thanks!

 

Casual inquiry, though: Does anybody know the market saturation for Japanese fighting games? I'd assume that has a lot to do with the sales figures, when your only option for buying a fighter is Japanese.

 

Mortal Kombat,Injustice Gods Among Us and Skullgirls are the only semi-relevant non Japanese fighters released recently that I remember.

[Revan Reborn]

Ah, I see. That makes substantially more sense. Thanks!

 

Casual inquiry, though: Does anybody know the market saturation for Japanese fighting games? I'd assume that has a lot to do with the sales figures, when your only option for buying a fighter is Japanese.

As far as fighting games are concerned, Mortal Kombat, of which is a Western game, is more than likely the most popular in the genre, at least domestically in the West. I'm excluding Injustice as it was made by the Mortal Kombat developers.

 

After that I'd anticipate Dead or Alive would probably come in second due to being multiplatform. Soul Calibur might come in third, but Tekken has a longer tradition and overall seems to be more popular, even if it's only limited to Playstation.

[Remmirath]

I'm not suggesting vastly different. The cover art of the male and female Inquisitor wearing the same armor with slight differences is a reasonable approach. My rationale has more to do with differences in the male and female anatomy and less to do with "men should wear pants and women should wear skirts." More choice and freedom is generally always a good thing. Ultimately, I believe BioWare needs to do whatever stays true to Dragon Age and fits into the ever-expanding world they are building.

In that case, I agree.

The relevant differences between male and female human anatomy are often exaggerated by people within the context of this debate, however, so I tend to be a little leery of that argument (I don't believe that's your intention: I'm just clarifying this in general). The differences, in the overall population, can in fact be slight enough that one can't even always definitively say a given skeleton is male or female without any other clues. With regards to armour, particularly plate, especially once you've got the proper amount of protective padding on under the metal armour, it's no different than the differences you're going to have between any given two individuals. Any two people you're fitting a suit of armour to are likely to have different chest/waist/hip proportions anyhow, regardless of whether they are male or female.

So, basically, I do also agree that differences should be taken into account, particularly if the body meshes in question are very noticably dimorphic, but the amount of difference in fit between any given male suit of armour and any given female suit of armour might in fact be quite slight.

[Shadow Fox]

As far as fighting games are concerned, Mortal Kombat, of which is a Western game, is more than likely the most popular in the genre, at least domestically in the West.

 

After that I'd anticipate Dead or Alive would probably come in second due to being multiplatform. Soul Calibur might come in third, but Tekken has a longer tradition and overall seems to be more popular, even if it's only limited to Playstation.

actually I think it goes.

 

1.Street Fighter

2. Marvel vs Capcom

3.Soul Calibur

4.Tekken

5.Mortal Kombat

6.Dead or Alive

 

as far as overall sales go

[Puppy Love]

I'm sorry, if a person you can tell easily at first glance to be a woman can at the same time 'effortlessly pass for a man' then all it does is highlight how absurd most of these claims of what's "feminine" or "masculine" when it comes to looks are, if there's so much of apparent overleap between these supposedly different traits.

 

Honestly I had to really look to SEE that she was female, and all her feminine features could easily be on a softer man.  If all these people look at her and don't immediately see a woman, have you considered that perhaps you are either more discerning than most people are, and thus are wrong in your statement it's immediately noticeable, or that maybe the feminine traits you see are not as feminine as you think and are shared traits with many women and some men.

 

Just because you can easily tell she's as woman at first glance doesn't mean others can, and if enough people can't, making the claim it's completely clear is clearly false.

 

Androgeny is not a bad word, there are lots of traits shared between men and women, and a man or woman can have a lot of these traits, the more they do the easier they can pass for the opposite gender.  There are masculine traits which = Is found more common in men.  There are feminine traits which = is found more common in women, and androgynous traits, which is found relatively equal in, is shared by, or can fall into both masculine and feminine ranges.

 

People fall all over this spectrum.  This is because physical/mental sex is not really so binary, it's a lot to do with hormones during multiple stages of development as well as many other factors.  Take myself for example.  I'm a girl, I have XY genes, but mentally/emotionally I'm female, I can't give the exact physiological reasons this happened, but I cannot be happy living as or identifying as a man, the male body feels wrong on me, I feel sick when I'm forced to live as a man.  I have features naturally that are both masculine, feminine and androgynous, everyone does in different amounts.

 

Am I offended by my having masculine traits?  No I recognize them, and being who I am work to get around them.  Am I less of a woman because I have them no.  So realize I'm not calling her less of a woman when I say she's very androgynous.  I'm saying she has more traits shared by both genders, and as such passes easily for a man effortlessly.  A man similarly androgynous can do the same just as well.  Is why she's a bad example, she could be an androgynous man just as easily as a woman in that picture.  Her gender is not so easily identified at a casual glance for most people in that outfit with her features. 

 

Once again this is not a judgment on her as a woman, it's a recognition that men and women can look very similar sometimes and in her case is one of those times.  Male and Female does not have a clear gender binary, there are points in the middle of both where they combine and a lot is shared.  Male and female is not that simple.  Trust me I wish it was, and I wouldn't have to struggle with my real life issues in this matter.

 

You're talking to a person for whom, passing as a woman is a very real and important concern, so I'm pretty aware of what is distinctly feminine and what is not.  It is my life.

 

So you may immediately identify her as a woman in that picture, but it does not make anyone who does not, or sees her in a more androgynous light, wrong or trying to insult her.  They just don't see it, because gender identity is not really that clear in a lot of cases to a lot of people.  Stop trying to turn people into sexist monsters when they are just confused by that border between genders being no where near as clear as we try to pretend it is.

 

If a picture to represent women in armor commonly results in an awkward and sincerely confused: "Um...  are you sure that's a woman?" is clearly an issue, and makes the picture a very, very bad example.

[Revan Reborn]

actually I think it goes.

 

1.Street Fighter

2. Marvel vs Capcom

3.Soul Calibur

4.Tekken

5.Mortal Kombat

6.Dead or Alive

 

as far as overall sales go

Ah I forgot about Street Fighter and MvC. Is Mortal Kombat really that low in regards to sales? I find that surprising considering its long history, the films, and how well the most recent one actually performed.

[tmp7704]

No matter which way you slice it, Japanese games of almost any make are more popular in the west than Japan, and western games are frequently only popular in the west, by some considerable margin.
 
Which returns to my original question, how do you explain this difference? For me, it's simple, they take one look at a Vivienne's absurd dress or DA:I Inquisitor wearing this ridiculous helmet and panther/snake pants and go um, ew.

The simplest way to explain it should be quite obvious: Japanese games enjoy professional quality VO and writing when sold in their native country, and pretty decent dubs/translations when brought to the West. But how many games with native English VO and text get Japanese market version that's anywhere near that quality? Or any localized Japanese version at all?

[Voragoras]

@Fighter Games That's what I thought, really. Mortal Kombat was the only one I could think of, whereas Tekken/SF/SC/DoA/MvC are all made by Japanese developers. I wouldn't say Skullgirls could compete, considering it's never been on the same tier as all the other ones, and Gods Among Us may count, but I personally consider it just an extension of Mortal Kombat with comic book characters.

 

Thanks for replying, y'all.

[Revan Reborn]

@Fighter Games That's what I thought, really. Mortal Kombat was the only one I could think of, whereas Tekken/SF/SC/DoA/MvC are all made by Japanese developers. I wouldn't say Skullgirls could compete, considering it's never been on the same tier as all the other ones, and Gods Among Us may count, but I personally consider it just an extension of Mortal Kombat with comic book characters.

 

Thanks for replying, y'all.

I actually found a list that's two years old that looks at the best selling games at all time. I was a little surprised by what was number one, but should have realized given the console and the characters.

 

http://www.vgchartz....fighting-games/

 

Who would have ever thought that Super Smash Brothers Brawl was technically the best selling fighting game ever made?

[Revan Reborn]

The simplest way to explain it should be quite obvious: Japanese games enjoy professional quality VO and writing when sold in their native country, and pretty decent dubs/translations when brought to the West. But how many games with native English VO and text get Japanese market version that's anywhere near that quality? Or any localized Japanese version at all?

This is a really good point. While some of the larger Western publishers do support Japanese VO, oftentimes most of the effort goes to getting quality VO for English, German, and French. Anything else is often secondary as most other languages will just receive subtitles. Disregarding that the Japanese player base is so small, I wonder how many more fans Western developers could accumulate if they put more effort into creating quality Japanese VO.

[tmp7704]

Honestly I had to really look to SEE that she was female, and all her feminine features could easily be on a softer man. If all these people look at her and don't immediately see a woman, have you considered that perhaps you are either more discerning than most people are, and thus are wrong in your statement it's immediately noticeable, or that maybe the feminine traits you see are not as feminine as you think and are shared traits with many women and some men.

I'm genuinely dumbfounded by this, because never in my life i had to look at Sigourney Weaver twice to make sure than no, she wasn't a man. I also don't recall anyone say they had trouble mistaking her for a guy, which is why it was so odd to read these initial comments about the drawing resembling her.

I'll however accept that yes, you and others saw her and thought it's a man rather than a woman. And with this in mind I'd like to point out that the conclusion you make works both ways -- that is, if i can easily see a woman in person you and few others see as a man and claim to have 'masculine' features, then maybe these masculine traits you see are not as masculine as you think, and are shared by both men and women alike. Which, as it happens, is exactly the point i was trying to make in the first place, in reaction to the "that's a man, baby" posts.

[Br3admax]

Who would have ever thought that Super Smash Brothers Brawl was technically the best selling fighting game ever made?

A lot of people. 

[Shadow Fox]

Ah I forgot about Street Fighter and MvC. Is Mortal Kombat really that low in regards to sales? I find that surprising considering its long history, the films, and how well the most recent one actually performed.

Oh I'm not saying MK sells poorly just that I think overall Tekken has outsold it that and MVC and SFs spots were the hardest for me to pin down and of course I also ignored the Naruto and DBZ games...

[Puppy Love]

I'm genuinely dumbfounded by this, because never in my life i had to look at Sigourney Weaver twice to make sure than no, she wasn't a man. I also don't recall anyone say they had trouble mistaking her for a guy, which is why it was so odd to read these initial comments about the drawing resembling her.

I'll however accept that yes, you and others saw her and thought it's a man rather than a woman. And with this in mind I'd like to point out that the conclusion you make works both ways -- that is, if i can easily see a woman in person you and few others see as a man and claim to have 'masculine' features, then maybe these masculine traits you see are not as masculine as you think, and are shared by both men and women alike. Which, as it happens, is exactly the point i was trying to make in the first place, in reaction to the "that's a man, baby" posts.

Thought we were talking about the pic of the woman in armor on a ship.  Is the one everyone is calling androgynous.  Sigourney is not very androgynous.  Sigourney would be a woman with clear feminine traits with a few strong masculine traits that stand out more as a result.  She definitely balances much more towards feminine all totaled. 

 

Edit: Oh read more of what you said.  Yeah comparing her with the person in the pic is not a good comparison.  That said, Masculine = most commonly found in men, not ONLY found in men.  A cis woman can have a pronounced adam's apple.  Does not change that a pronounced adam's apple is clearly a masculine trait.  

 

You are misunderstanding what people are saying when calling a trait masculine.  Though I agree, she's more androgynous than masculine, she's just too androgynous to be a good spokesperson of a woman in armor.

[Revan Reborn]

A lot of people. 

In fairness I don't consider Super Smash Brothers to be a "fighting game." It's the same reason I don't consider Mario Kart or Diddy Kong Racing to be a "racing game." Neither of those really conforms to the standards of their respective genres. When one thinks of fighting games, it's either Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, or Tekken. When one thinks of a racing game, it's either Forza Motorsport, Grand Turismo, or Need for Speed. Nintendo has always been somewhat of a strange exception, and it doesn't help that their games are generally confined to a very small and exclusive fan base (the Wii was an exception for reasons that aren't worth getting into here).

 

I certainly can only speak for myself. I'd be really surprised if many categorized those games as being in these particular genres though as they share very little in common with other potential competitors.

[Shadow Fox]

I actually found a list that's two years old that looks at the best selling games at all time. I was a little surprised by what was number one, but should have realized given the console and the characters.

 

http://www.vgchartz....fighting-games/

 

Who would have ever thought that Super Smash Brothers Brawl was technically the best selling fighting game ever made?

I'm honestly more surprised by a WWF game being there myself.