2576 réponses à ce sujet

[Thefirst17]

awesome armor is way more important than sexy.

[Hadeedak]

I can't say I'm fond of that armor, either. My objection is that it has so many bells and whistles that it kind of gets lost.

 

I dunno, Kefka. I don't think it makes anyone a hypocrite to like different things for different settings or functions. My favorite hat is a beat-up baseball cap, but I wouldn't wear it skiing. I'd get frostbite so fast...

 

Heck, just look at the blood dragon armor in Mass Effect. Poor Shepard looks a bit out of place in it, and it's been teched up to fit with the setting.  I'm sure qunari aesthetics will look different from the Tevinter look, and we'll probably see more frills than DAO because lol, Orlais.

 

And, as a feminine human, I can say for damn sure I feel a lot more represented by Cassandra's outfit than your avatar. Which is cute and all.

 

Edit: Actually, in the eyebrow poink division, what in bloody blue blazes with wanting to look good and be healthy, but not wanting your avatar to strut around in a thoroughly impractical outfit? I mean, sheesh. You don't do yoga in jeans, you don't fight with swords without a covered torso. If you break those rules, you're going to be in some pain, and it could have been easily avoided...

 

I like attractive things. Sensible attractive things.

[Star fury]

Also, talking about Sif, what do you guys make of Wonder Woman's costume in the upcoming Batman v Superman?

Awesome armour!

[Revan Reborn]

 

Yeah, GG on representing women, you literally can't even tell if it is a woman from this picture.(And no offense to the woman in there, I'm sure she is quite feminine and all that but for this full body suit)

 

 

Yeah but why don't they bother? That's because they don't expect it to sell, so there is no need to put in the effort. I'm pretty sure you can find big marketing pushes once upon a time like the 360 or something in Japan, but of course it didn't sell. Modern console gaming is synonymous with Japan for the most part, starting in the mid 80s. They aren't going to be interested in someone replicating what they made and selling it back to them.

 

 

Yes? Exactly? Women are more conservative generally speaking, so that's precisely why their games are going to appeal more to them. Going the other way though, I would say they've actually had plenty more gender/sexual diversification than most western games (including Bioware), I don't really like to say it but they've done virtually everything better after a certain point.

 

As to the second part, of course I know that, I never believed for an instant anything in the game was changing at any point in time for really any reason.

 

 

They have attempted, they have made it their mission, and I give them a big fat D+. Sure, your not an F, but lets not trip all over ourselves with adulation just yet. When I'm looking at games to play, I basically was like oh Watch Dogs, bleh, Destiny, bleh, DA:I, oh it's probably a little more fun because of the whole Bioware thing, but they've never really recaptured the magic of BG... ehhh it's basically the same as the rest.

 

I particularly feel this is necessary because I don't know who or what gave BW the impression they are doing this all correctly, and that's why they can be so vigorous. I'm guessing it's because of the abyssmal performance of many other western game companies, but I don't think it's that simple. If a person wants a game that better represents women, or feminity, or has more appealing outfits, they are going to play a Japanese game, in all probability. They might even just play League of Legends or something. Heck, a bunch of people are now watching F/SN.

 

If a person wants a really good game (i.e., not a VN, or some incoherent free to play chinese MMO or whatever), they are going to play a DICE game or maybe WoW or something, maybe Shadow of Mordor. There are lots of games that do gameplay better than this kind of incoherent Diablo 2 health pot jamming experience or whatever DA:I is going to end up as.

 

So why are people going to care about Dragon Age in that equation? I believe that Japanese games do a far superior job representing femininity or outfits or any variety of issues that western game companies do such a bad job of doing, why does the world then need Dragon Age?

 

For what's it worth, I would give DA:O more like a B or B+. Characters like Morrigan and Logain gave the series a more biting edge, that I think is attractive as much as any outfit, although obviously instances like the Desire Demons and Morrigan made it clear that BW hadn't completely abandoned silly and frilly at that point.

First and foremost, you can tell immediately that it's a women in the cosplay based on her facial features.

 

Do you really believe the Xbox 360 or Xbox One doesn't sell well because the Japanese view it as an inferior product? You are an interesting one... There's two obvious explanations for why Xbox doesn't perform as well as its competitors, and it has little to do with the quality of the hardware or software being inferior based on perception. First, games that are released on the Xbox are overwhelmingly Western-developed experiences. Playstation and Nintendo are obviously Japanese, so they already have two platforms that appeal to their cultural preferences.

 

Secondly, because Japan is such a small market compared to the rest of the world, Western developers don't put in the resources to even make Japanese VO. A few might on a occasion, but certainly the big three translations are: English, French, and German. So when you have a game console and games that don't necessarily appeal to the culture, and they also don't support and accommodate that culture as much, of course there will be less interest. I guarantee you, if money wasn't a factor, and Western developers pivoted towards Japan more, the Xbox would sell much better in the region.

 

Japan's society is dominated by men, much more than the West. You can find articles and news anywhere of what men can do in Japan and what women can't. In a lot of ways, especially in regards to society, Japan emulates 1950s America based on attire, social interaction, and many other factors that could be talked about. My point for this is if anyone is likely going to be more inclusive and open-minded, it will likely be the West. You can pick up any JRPG and you will almost immediately see typical stereotypes about gender, race, sexuality, personality, etc.

 

The most recent example I can bring to mind is Final Fantasy XIII, of which I've been playing recently, and it's impossible to take any of the characters or story seriously. They are just ridiculous and absurd in every right, albeit light entertainment. It's so very different from the complex and imperfect characters that we would see in The Witcher 2 or Dragon Age. You don't have the "lame super-soldier," the slap-stick comedy relief, or the "brawn with no brains" personalities in these Western games nearly as much compared to what is very prevalent in Final Fantasy. There is just generally more depth in WRPG character development, which also may partially due to the West trying to appeal to an older and more mature audience.

 

Ultimately, this comes down to the simple realization that you prefer Japanese attire, at the very least, to their Western counterparts. That is certainly fine and you are entitled to your opinion. However, when you make sweeping statements as that approach is "superior" or "just better in virtually every way," that isn't constructive and certainly, again, many won't take you seriously. If DAI is really that upsetting for you though, you'd likely just be better off sticking to JRPGs and games not from North America or Europe.

[GrinningRogue]

"Yeah, GG on representing women, you literally can't even tell if it is a woman from this picture."

I figure it's better to be represented as clothed and reasonable on the downside that it's not really visibly female, rather than represented as an idiot that wades into battle half naked and later needs rescuing cos an arrow got stuck in ur gut or something.

To me, it shows someone who has enough instinct to not want their guts spilled on the floor, which is a good representation, considering it focuses on them being practical instead of being visually pleasing. And considering the standard focus on female appearance (and how it's supposed to be visually pleasing), its good to be represented as something else other than just looks.

[Voragoras]

Well 51% to 49%? Works for me, I'd expect a Japanese game to absolutely sell better than a western game in Japan, as a starting point, so the simple fact that that is not true is interesting enough for me as a starting point. Also I don't know why the biggest fanbase issue is important, whether their interest in Japanese material was a prior or presently acquired interest seems irrelevant, unless I'm reading that wrong.

 

Speaking of shifting goalposts care to address the absolute non-existence of interest for Dragon Age in Japan? As long as we're skipping over things, that is. I didn't see anyone in the last 3 or 4 pages that dared address that one. It's things like that make me not very inspired here, I can just as easily assume that literally none of you can explain it.

 

Props for actively addressing the questions I have though, that's more than I can say for many people here. I must confess I personally thought the numbers were pretty skewed there, so this makes it more even, I still think the initial idea isn't really overturned though. You should definitely get a for actually finding the financial report.

 

Consider that Japan is one country and NA/EU are two continents, with the latter having a total population over 100 million greater than the former.  A quick Google tells me that NA has 23 countries, while Europe contains approximately 50, so that's total sales in 1 country only 2% away from total sales in approx. 73 countries. This suggests the opposite of your argument - that the Japanese market is stronger than the Western.

(Also note that these are percentages, not total figures - it does not indicate that Japanese games sell more than Western ones in total, or if the overseas market just accounts for a higher part of Japan's sales figures. It might indicate weak domestic demand, instead. This is a supposition, though.)

 

And yes, it is relevant. You claim that the only reason for increased overseas sales is that the Japanese aesthetic appeals more, when that could in fact be that they had a dedicated fanbase already outside of Japan that was waiting for a localisation. Japanese businesses are known to be risk averse, and their entertainment industries are no different. They only invest in creating a translated product if they know it will sell well.

 

I, and other users, have already explained the practical non-existence of DA:O sales in Japan. Marketing, translation and localisation issues, absence of brand loyalty, method of distribution... There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the only reason DA:O didn't sell as well in Japan is because the outfits weren't bombastic enough. It could easily be that the only way to purchase DA:O is through an obscure digital link, and it wasn't sold through a common retailer (I'm unaware of any evidence that suggests this is the case, but it is a possibility.)

 

The financial report was pretty easy to find. I just googled "Bandai Namco Fiscal Reports" and the link to that part of their site came up. I wish finding online papers for my degree was that simple.

 

Addendum: To illustrate how logically silly your argument is, consider these statements.

J-RPGs also don't sell well in Malaysia, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or Lithuania.

Judging from this, the appeal of the J-RPG is minimal and unpopular.

Therefore, Western RPGs are better.

[melliot24]

Also, talking about Sif, what do you guys make of Wonder Woman's costume in the upcoming Batman v Superman?

 

It looks cool, and it stays pretty true to the comics.  So, it's hard to be too critical.  But, it's definitely more on the skimpy side than actually being useful armor.  

[Revan Reborn]

It looks cool, and it stays pretty true to the comics.  So, it's hard to be too critical.  But, it's definitely more on the skimpy side than actually being useful armor.  

It should be noted that Wonder Woman is a bit of an exception considering she is a demigoddess. Armor and her attire really aren't necessary, as she really doesn't need to wear anything and could be just as effective. That being said, Zack Snyder is clearly trying to remain close to the source material of her origin being the daughter of Zeus in traditional Ancient Greek Mythology fashion.

[Finnn62]

Also, talking about Sif, what do you guys make of Wonder Woman's costume in the upcoming Batman v Superman?

Spoiler

Well, it's definitely more armor-like than I expected from Wonder Woman. That's good, I guess. I'm not a Wonder Woman fan, but you can't really expect her to wear full armor because that's just never been the way Wonder Woman's been.

 

Speaking of superheroes, I'm more of a Marvel fan. I really wish Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) would get a movie. She was still cool as Ms. Marvel, but her current costume/identity is fantastic, imo:

 

Spoiler

[Remmirath]

I still don't see why people think it matters if you can immediately tell whether someone on the battlefield is male or female. Seems rather irrelevant to me.
 

About Isabela, I found it extremely irritating that she didn't wear pants for 3 whole acts. I didn't mind it in Act 1 as she was just ship wrecked and probably whithout much gold to spend on new pants. But seriously by Act 2, there's no reason why her attire should have remained the same..... So as soon as a mod came out I gave our beloved Pirate Queen some damn pants.

I didn't like the inability to change the NPCs armour in DA II at all, but aside from that, I wouldn't've had a problem with Isabela's outfit if rogues didn't spend so much time tumbling around. That's really not what you want to wear if you're going to be doing flips and rolls on stone and sand and all kinds of things, unless you really like scrapes and bruises.
 

The puritan agenda has struck pretty hard at most games all along the western front, that's kind of not really very true anymore. However, there are Japanese games and I do play them. I should also note I actually don't post normally about anything, I just promised myself I would actually share what I like or don't like about games. I never expected there to be so much of a response.

There are quite a lot of games that still have armour design and aesthetics that I would think is more what you prefer, although it is true that more of those have been MMORPGs and shooters and other types of games than RPGs of late.

I also dispute the notion that it is in any way a "puritan" agenda, either (obviously) in the historic sense or the modern usage, but considering how many times different people have pointed that out to you in various different ways, I doubt there's any point to my doing so in yet another way.
 

Also no offense but me pushing for all the games to have my aesthetic? That's rich, coming from here, because no matter where I go, whether it's just a random gaming news website, or some other place, all I see are the remnants of discussions like this. Heck I was on deviantart, and someone did the whole female half-naked, male clothed thing armor situation, and bam 200 some comments of people arguing. I wonder why that would be? It's not as though people here have been pushing for a contrary agenda elsewhere. I'm pretty sure part of the reason I'm here is because you guys are so insistent upon dominating every conversation across the planet, you insist that everything you have to say is correct, that everyone else is wrong, well, does it stand up to scrutiny?

Isn't that what you're doing? It obviously doesn't fit in with the established setting of Dragon Age or with the past two games, or indeed with any other game that BioWare has ever made. There's no reason to think that they would go that route, and there are still plenty of games that do. So, unless you want them all to be that way, why complain about it here?

I rather expect that this is a case of selection bias. You are more likely to remember those discussions that disagree with you, and the ones that you agree with tend to blend into the background. From my point of view, I assure you, I see plenty of evidence that the sort of aesthetic you prefer is still going very strong in some areas (all those online card games people were linking images of earlier in this thread, for instance). DeviantArt is chock full of that kind of art, although it's also got a good amount of other art.

As to why people would argue about that, it's probably because of the gender disparity, and it might be reminding those people of all the games where they ended up having to put up with such changes in armour. I highly doubt you'd see anywhere near the same sort of argument if both were half-naked or if both were clothed.

This isn't a case of objectively wrong or right, except in as much as ensuring that whatever decision is made is carried through equally for both male and female characters. The preference of believability/pure fantasy is just that, a preference. Once that equality is the norm, I don't think you'll see nearly as heated of discussions about revealing armour, one way or another.
 

"was" the standard of gaming since the beginning. "now" it's not, and "now" games aren't as fun. I'm curious as to how all these other people got started in gaming in the first place, if they had ever been in an arcade at the very least none of this would actively offend them.

I can't tell if you're specifically ignoring the fact that people's sense of fun is individual and that a large number of people disagree that they are less fun, or certainly that this is the reason they are less fun, or if you honestly can't understand that.

I don't know about other people. I got started gaming playing Commander Keen and the original Duke Nukem, as well as Lemmings and a few other DOS games, all of which were quite solidly irrelevant to this discussion. I have been in arcades, however, and I'm really not sure why you think that would mean that I won't be offended by female characters having skimpy armour while male characters have plausible armour -- or, for that matter, why you think that I'm offended by revealing clothing in general. I'm not. I don't want armour to be like that, in this game. I don't care at all if it is in games where it would actually make sense, or certainly not in games that I've no intention of playing in the first place.
 

This is the thing I keep coming back to, I can barely take anyone seriously when this happens all the time. There are a small group of people who take the ideas more seriously, but mostly, it just seems like a cheap trick to try and get everyone thinking attractiveness is bad while they push their own advantage. That's why we get this monstrosity.

That doesn't make sense. People don't have to want the same thing out of everything. It's entirely reasonable to want something different from, for instance, your own clothing and your character's armour, or from an action movie and a crime novel. If the things in question aren't the same, there's no reason that people should want the same things from them. There's no reason that people even have to always want the same thing from something in the same category. Most people don't like eating the same food every night, for instance.

People really aren't out to get you by taking away your fun. They just want to be able to have their own fun.
 

Like really? You couldn't even just go for the Saskia Witcher 2 vibe (which as always people tend never to comment on the things that might disrupt their invincible god-complexes), and she's still kinda hot at least. DA:I strikes me as developing a rocket designed for maximum impact on attractiveness and attractive people. If you want to appeal to women, or even men who just happen to be very emotional/clothes driven whatever, you are going to have to do the one thing you absolutely hate, and that's appeal to the shallower sensibilities in life. Is Saskia "tasteless/" Is she naked? No, she is none of those things, and yet she isn't covered like the Virgin of Aedirn.

See, the Witcher games appear to be a great example of a recent RPG series that has what you're looking for. I'm not sure where you're going with the whole god-complexes thing; it doesn't seem to make sense (I know I'd never hold The Witcher up as a good example of armour in a game, and in fact I haven't even got around to playing either of them yet).

... Nice stereotyping, there. Good job, assuming that's what you were going for.
 

I've been applying this in a gaming context, watching people serve their western masters with undying allegiance, defending every flaw vociferiously, turning around and spitting on Japanese games whenever possible, and then privately being completely absorbed in them, posting dozens of half-naked pictures, insisting on sex scenes, posting memes, talking about how they own every single Final Fantasy, the nano-second you get deeper into any thread, etc. etc. There have been exceptions, yes, but I don't know why they expect anyone to take them seriously when this is going on all the time. Of course, they've evolved since then and are more clever in their marketing and goals, but it's still the exact same thing to me. It's hard to take realism or many arguments seriously when that is happening, is there any reason we can't assume that works in one game won't also work in the other game? It's precisely when you have so many rules compelling a thing to bind it together that you don't get an interesting result.

I'm unsure of why you believe that all arguments are somehow intertwined, and you can't believe one argument because you've discounted a similar one. One person being a hypocrite about something does not mean that every other person who holds one of the same opinions they do is also being a hypocrite. It doesn't follow.
 

... but they've never really recaptured the magic of BG ...

Well, that much we can agree on, at least, although I suspect for rather different reasons.
 

I particularly feel this is necessary because I don't know who or what gave BW the impression they are doing this all correctly, and that's why they can be so vigorous. I'm guessing it's because of the abyssmal performance of many other western game companies, but I don't think it's that simple.

...

If a person wants a really good game (i.e., not a VN, or some incoherent free to play chinese MMO or whatever), they are going to play a DICE game or maybe WoW or something, maybe Shadow of Mordor. There are lots of games that do gameplay better than this kind of incoherent Diablo 2 health pot jamming experience or whatever DA:I is going to end up as.

...

So why are people going to care about Dragon Age in that equation? I believe that Japanese games do a far superior job representing femininity or outfits or any variety of issues that western game companies do such a bad job of doing, why does the world then need Dragon Age?

While my quibbles with BioWare's current direction are all mechanical and gameplay related rather than visual, I do also wonder this to some extent. It probably is because RPGs that actually let you create your character at all are so rare; off the top of my head, ignoring MMORPGs (which I consider a different kettle of fish altogether), there's basically just Dragon Age and the Elder Scrolls games in the way of ongoing series'. And I suppose I can count Mass Effect in that as well. Barely.

For me, I'd say the world needs Dragon Age because it is the closest thing we've got to a solid RPG where you can completely make your own character that is grounded in an at least reasonably believable and internally consistent setting. I would be quite happy to see a greater variety of RPGs that might fill that niche, but right now, there's very little else. The Elder Scrolls games have whole can-be-first-person and mouse control for combat going on, which makes them very different in terms of gameplay. Other than that, well, Pillars of Eternity is frankly looking like my best bet for a game that I'll really completely like, but for those looking for a glitzy 3d game they might overlook that.

[RevilFox]

For what it's worth, as much as I want to be able to choose what I wear while in Skyhold, I would take a 10-20 (half male/half female) "clothing" DLC over just getting two or three options in the base game. If they develop the DLC after the main game is gold they are likely going to have more resources dedicated to it, and it's going to be better overall. And it's more likely that I'll find something I actually like.

[eyezonlyii]

Well, it's definitely more armor-like than I expected from Wonder Woman. That's good, I guess. I'm not a Wonder Woman fan, but you can't really expect her to wear full armor because that's just never been the way Wonder Woman's been.

 

Speaking of superheroes, I'm more of a Marvel fan. I really wish Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) would get a movie. She was still cool as Ms. Marvel, but her current costume/identity is fantastic, imo:

 

Spoiler

I just wish the previous Female Captain Marvel (Monic Rambeau) would get a movie, or at least a mention or supporting role. She satisfies the same niche that Carol does and has the distinction of having led the Avengers before. 

Image by windriderx23

[Finnn62]

I just wish the previous Female Captain Marvel (Monic Rambeau) would get a movie, or at least a mention or supporting role. She satisfies the same niche that Carol does and has the distinction of having led the Avengers before.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Image by windriderx23

Hey, that's fair. There's actually quite a few Avengers we haven't seen in the movies that'd be nice to see. Where's Vision, Wasp, and Ant-man? They were pretty main Avengers, weren't they? Personally, I'd really like to see Luke Cage on the big screen, too. 

 

I like the trench-coat, in that pic, too, I must say.

[Ennai and 54 others]

I'm fine with skimpy clothing in fantasy games,especially if it's a mage.Then I can just headcannon that she can conjure up a barrier or something.

 

But armor is meant to protect,I can't take any female character seriously if their chest ,head and stomach(the most important parts) are exposed.It's as if they don't know what armor is for.

[eyezonlyii]

Hey, that's fair. There's actually quite a few Avengers we haven't seen in the movies that'd be nice to see. Where's Vision, Wasp, and Ant-man? They were pretty main Avengers, weren't they? Personally, I'd really like to see Luke Cage on the big screen, too. 

well, Luke Cage at least is getting a series on Netflix along with Daredevil and Iron Fist.

[Finnn62]

well, Luke Cage at least is getting a series on Netflix along with Daredevil and Iron Fist.

That's awesome! I actually hadn't heard that! Thanks for the info!

[Hadeedak]

Excuse me, but if we're talking Marvels here, I've got to be a hipster....

 

I'm fond of saying I really like Captain Marvel and Captain Marvel, but not that jerk, Captain Mar'Vell.

 

Anyway, Wonder Woman's just fine for me. First off, super heroes have their own look. And then there's the fact that no matter what she puts on, it probably has less structural integrity than her skin. >>

[In Exile]

well, Luke Cage at least is getting a series on Netflix along with Daredevil and Iron Fist.

 

And Jessica Drew, I think. 

[Hadeedak]

*nerd hyperventilate*

[Greenface21]

I thought its Jessica Jones... whatever

[Finnn62]

I just wish the previous Female Captain Marvel (Monic Rambeau) would get a movie, or at least a mention or supporting role. She satisfies the same niche that Carol does and has the distinction of having led the Avengers before.

Spoiler

Image by windriderx23

Also related:

Spoiler

[Voragoras]

I kiiind of liked this version of Magik's outfit:

 

 

But it was more in a "sweet and simple with a tolerable colour scheme" kind of way. And Magik is one of my favourite X-Men, so there may be some potential bias.

Potential.

[RevilFox]

I just wish the previous Female Captain Marvel (Monic Rambeau) would get a movie, or at least a mention or supporting role. She satisfies the same niche that Carol does and has the distinction of having led the Avengers before. 

Image by windriderx23

Why is her left breast wearing a bracelet? 

[In Exile]

I thought its Jessica Jones... whatever

 

You're right. Too... many.. Jessicas!

[In Exile]

Why is her left breast wearing a bracelet? 

 

A better question is why isn't everyone's left breast wearing a bracelet?