2576 réponses à ce sujet

[Rykoth]

Kefka. Pay attention.

 

I brought this discussion up with a lady friend of mine. I showed her, a female - your responses.

 

She said you're full of it. Now hold on. Here's why.

 

Your whole argument is that female armor should be sexy and attractive, and that covering head to toe is unattractive and sexist.

 

Except, that's where your entire argument is flawed.

 

If I put on armor on my human male inquisitor and it covers him head to toe? I expect it to do the same on a woman. If I put a bare chested armor on a male human inquisitor? I expect it to do the same on a woman. Period. That is what I am saying, that is what my friend said, and that is what countless people on this forum have said. Representation. The fact is, most game developers are men. Do you know what this means?

 

Most of the time in a computer game, when you see that scantily clad female who manages to avoid injury? It's because a man made that character. It's because he made what is attractive to him.

 

Pay attention to what female posters have been saying. They've been disagreeing with you. They know what women want. They know what women like, because they are women.

 

I'm willing to bet that if you saw more AAA titles developed by women, the amount of sexualized women would DECREASE.

 

Stop claiming you're fighting the repressed sexuality. Just stop. You're not. You sound more like a GamerGate A-Hole every time you post.

[aTigerslunch]

I found her lack of pants....disturbing..*Sith hand gesture

 

Seriously though, can she even bend her knees with those steel boots?

 

For me, this one is more piratical

 

This WW looks awesome to me, and more appealing. She seems to garner the idea of dont mess with me more in this one than the previous one, my opinion on those.

[aTigerslunch]

I still don't see why people think it matters if you can immediately tell whether someone on the battlefield is male or female. Seems rather irrelevant to me.
 
 

 

Actually, its very relevant in current skirmishes within the Middle East. Men of those terrorist groups are scared of being shot by females that are coming together to defend their homes against them. They see how the women got treated and are trying to help break that up now. At least this info was a week old, I hadnt looked more into it.     It is obvious to me as I was a soldier, I can pick out male/female's  normally, but there is a big concern of that right now in Middle East.  Though it might not be relevant, I do however find that fact very intriguing. 

[Spectre Impersonator]

I heard there were even more crazy and obnoxious fans in this thread than the rest of the forum so I came to gawk like a hillbilly at an airport.

 

There is nothing subjective about art or costumes, tell me which is better?

 

*snip*

 

or

 

*snip*

Both of those are shite.

[AzureAardvark]

 

I heard there were even more crazy and obnoxious fans in this thread than the rest of the forum so I came to gawk like a hillbilly at an airport.

 

The planes are the things with wings on them.

Helping. I'm a helper!

[Spectre Impersonator]

The planes are the things with wings on them.

Helping. I'm a helper!

What about the ones with feathers?

[AresKeith]

I found her lack of pants....disturbing..*Sith hand gesture

 

Seriously though, can she even bend her knees with those steel boots?

 

For me, this one is more piratical

 

That looks like Cassandra

[Han Shot First]

I'd like to see some armor based on Byzantine designs. 

 

 

 

 

 

[AresKeith]

I'd like to see some armor based on Byzantine designs. 
 
*snip*

I'm surprised Tevinter doesn't bare atleast some similarity to them 

[Han Shot First]

I'm surprised Tevinter doesn't bare atleast some similarity to them 

 

Good point. If a DA game is ever set in Tevinter, it would be cool if they go that route.

[aTigerslunch]

Still trying to catch up on this thread

 

@Kefka   Here some things for you to read

 

http://en.wikipedia....gaming_in_Japan

 

 

Facts of life on J-Games versus Western-Games

 

 

Also:

 

http://www.metacriti.../all/all?page=1

 

http://www.imdb.com/list/ls057949881/

 

http://www.gamesrada...est-games-ever/

 

There are many variety of games.

 

 

Honestly, you are in a forum of gamers that leans towards Western games, you will get more wanting western than japanese type styles. Not sure why you said there isnt any western games in top 100s, when they have a slew of them in those 3 lists I posted. Granted, Mario tends to hit closer to tops than others. I tried getting those lists that are not picky about country specifics.

 

This you posted earlier:

http://vgsales.wikia...ite_video_games

Only refers to Japanese games in Japan, not overall, which is a list you cant use unless we are just doing by countries.  I can edit this post to refer only to each country if want to go that route.  Actually, couple western games in that top 100 after all, in reference to games sold in Japan, which is all that list represents.

[Seraphim24]

 

This you posted earlier:

http://vgsales.wikia...ite_video_games

Only refers to Japanese games in Japan, not overall, which is a list you cant use unless we are just doing by countries.  I can edit this post to refer only to each country if want to go that route.  Actually, couple western games in that top 100 after all, in reference to games sold in Japan, which is all that list represents.

 

I was thinking of this list http://vgsales.wikia...ite_video_games.

 

Again, I get that most people here prefer those kinds of games generally, and that's fine. I'm simply someone who at the moment doesn't really prefer any games by western game companies, for many of the reasons that presumably BW is fighting against.

 

I mean do you have any idea what happened when I posted "more female characters" on the WoW forums? The WoW forums? It was buried within seconds, the criticism was fast and furious and unrelenting before the thread was locked.

 

So I see this place and the DA:I characters and go hrm, well, maybe this is where I should be going, but whenever I try to raise the issues I see (in this case outfits). Many, not all, but many people reject it out of hand in a kind of fearful way.

 

Then I go, well... maybe I should just  keep playing WoW, I mean, is this so much better? I've tried to give reasons for what I think could be better but people are adamant it makes the game worse.

 

Honestly though, at this point, I'm not even sure I'd want to see DA try and make hot or sexy armor. It would probably come off as contrived and outside their competency, nonetheless, I wish western game companies could find more ways to improve on this dimension generally.

[Finnn62]

The "more female characters" issue is one that I think does need to be addressed generally in games and other media, in the near future, but for the moment, I'm quite happy with the female characters that we do have in Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

I still don't see the outfits as an issue that needs to be vastly improved. I love all the armor they've shown Cassandra in, for instance. I wouldn't really see the use of "sexy" armor as an improvement, but I'd approve of having the in-game option for "sexy" armor, I guess, if only for people like Kefka who really enjoy it.

[aTigerslunch]

 

 

wont remove this quote bubble for some reason, Argh!

 

 

Spoiler

I stand corrected than 

 

So, to keep on topic. Have a look of JAPANESE female armor....

This is from the festival parade/ reenactment of 巴御前(Tomoe Gozen), a great lady warrior from The Tale of the Heike

 

And this his from one of the stage production of her story

 

Very nice PuppyLove

 

 

Spoiler

I've been wondering about how this thread got so big. I think some of the arguments miss the point, so here's what I think about it:

 

TL:DR:

This comes down to "realism" vs "artistic license". Neither is fundamentally better than the other, but the higher the amount of artistic license used, the higher the threshold of suspension of disbelief becomes, until we end up with a story that doesn't take itself seriously or is unintentionally funny trying to be taken seriously. Since "sexy" and "armor" is a contradiction in terms, necessitating an extreme amount of artistic license, "sexy armor" can singlehandedly make a serious story turn silly, and you can't expect developers to compromise the integrity of their setting for the sake of player choice.

 

Now for the details.

 

I. The viewpoint of in-world realism

 

(1) "Revealing" and "armor" is a contradiction in terms.

 

Why? Well, because the very point of armor is to have something between your skin and the enemy's weapon. Those who answer this with "Enchantment!" miss the point, because unless there isn't an intrinsic disadvantage in adding another layer of protection, and unless the protection offered by your enchantment is absolute, it is always desirable to add another layer of protection, and even a silk shirt offers significantly more protection than no silk shirt, at is can protect against side effects like flying gravel (or bone) and prevent some glancing hits from piercing your skin - which, as an aside, also serves well to protect your sex appeal if you have any. As a rule, scars are ugly.

 

This means that no sane person who expects a fight and has the time to prepare would ever go into a fight without having as much of their skins covered as they can practically get away with. If circumstances limit your armor, the very least you will still do is cover the torso completely, since you *really* don't want to get wounded there. 

 

Meanwhile on the side of sex appeal, this usually works by revealing exactly those parts of your body you would want to protect most in a fight. This is no accident, since one of the messages inextricably bound up with sex appeal is a measure of vulnerability and trust, exactly what you don't want, or have, in a fight. The other possible message is supreme confidence, which is why deities and superpowered mages can get away with revealing armor in an otherwise serious story while others usually can't.

 

(2) So what about these JRPGs? Are they all silly?

 

I have no idea, since I don't know many. But take a hypothetical situation that I'm sure has occurred somewhere in the genre more than once: a young girl is snagged away from a party by some supernatural horror and ends up fighting for her life with newly-revealed awesome psi abilities. In such a situation, a revealing outfit is perfectly plausible. The point, however, is that it's not armor and it's not supposed to be. She isn't wearing "sexy enchanted armor", she is situationally unarmored, and most undesirably so, at least from her own point of view. If, later in the story, she ends up seeking out those supernatural horrors to fight them, and still wears the same outfit, then things have become problematic.

 

(3) The pitfalls of adornments

 

Everyone wants to look good, right? Even while fighting? Well, as a rule, yes of course. The problem is that most forms of adornment have significant side effects in a battle situation, and since your armor is made to protect the most valuable thing you have - your life - it's usually seen as being not worth it. Bright colors attract an enemy's attention, embossments, spikes etc.. can snag a weapon, making sure that blows that would've otherwise have glanced off transfer their complete kinetic energy to your body. And so on. That's why most armor has flat or rounded surfaces with no embossments. Camouflage isn't that much of an issue if you already have metal armor, so paint jobs might be accepable in low-tech settings, but they will have the problem that they're damaged in the fighting. So, most ways of enhancing the appearance of your armor are impractical for fighting. I've heard that many female soldiers in modern armies take special care to appear feminine (which does not equal revealing btw) when they can, but they do that in their free time, and they do it exactly because they can't while on active duty.

 

(4) Fantasy and in-world realism

 

I can already see the reply: "We have magic, how realistic is that?" Realism is measured by the rules of the fictional universe. It's in-world realism I'm speaking of. Magic is a premise of some fictional worlds, thus its existence is by definition realistic. That's why this story is fantasy. But as much as the presence of magic turns a story into fantasy, the presence of revealing armor turns the story into a non-serious one.

 

 

II. The Artistic license viewpoint

 

All that's good and well, but in fantastic stories we want to look good, because, well what's the point of being in a fantastic world without some acceptable breaks from reality, right? Artistic license is always used in stories, and often we don't even realize how much, leading to things like "reality is unrealistic". There is, by its very nature, no objective way to judge how much a particular instance of artistic license affects the mood of a setting, but there's one rule: the more artistic license is used, and the more "in your face" it is, the less convincing and serious the setting will appear, and the more unrealistic a particular instance is, the bigger the effect it will have.

 

That's why "sexy armor" on your characters in an otherwise serious story *is* bad design as a rule. It flies in the face of realism much more drastically than, say, embossments, bright colors and the fact that we never have muddy boots, and it is, by its nature, drastically "in your face". Both effects combine so that the amount of rationalization and ultra-tech/magic  you have to invest to make it plausible is so ridiculously high that it's immediately recognized as contrived. Revealing armor yells "don't take me seriously" about as loudly as it's possible to yell for a visual element of a story.

 

So, yeah, I do want artistic license. i don't want to have muddy boots, I don't want wounds to leave disfiguring scars, I don't want to scrub the gore off my armor before I go to rest in a camp, and i don't want to mend my clothing after a fight or repair the damaged griffon embossment on my armor. The thing, however, is this: fighting in these games already uses up a great deal of artistic license to be enjoyable in a game at all, rather than showing us how ugly, bloody, dirty and altogether unpleasant it really should be. Most of these things don't affect the serious tone of the story much because they make the unpleasant less conspicuous, rather than adding something extremely conspicuous to the setting. The absence of muddy boots isn't "in your face" while Varric's backflips very much are. I don't know about others, but I find DAI's combat animations very problematic in this regard. Nobody believes that Varric could really move in such a way, or that mages would flourish their staffs in the way they're shown, just as nobody believes that anyone actually would go into a fight in sexy armor, even if were somewhat feasible to do so. 

 

III. The ruling principle should be "dress for the occasion"

 

So, here's what I want: I want my Inquisitor to wear a frilly dress to the Orlesian ball. It can be as revealing as I can get away with while still staying stylistically in Thedas. If the game lets me cause a scandal with it, great. While going out to hunt demons, however, I want something practical and protective. And since in a visual medium, function is brought across to the player by appearance, it should look the part.

 

Edit:

About the above images: these look great, but should count as "dress uniform". Dress uniforms have been invented exactly because "combat outfit" and "representation" are somewhat mutually exclusive. Personally, I would accept them in a story because - see above - we all want to look good and are prepared to sacrifice *some* realism for it. Also note how they all cover the torso completely.

 

 

Agreed with this, couldnt like as ran out. Like!

 

 

Spoiler

No it was amazing how I tied that into repression, because it is repressive, and Bioware and their fans are blind to that fact which I have been trying to illustrate for some time.

 

If it's troll worthy simply to suggest the possibility that BW is guilty of some of the sins they find the rest of gaming has perpetuated relentlessly, then BW is not only bad at representing women and sexes, but also unable to deal with criticism apparently. I've already made clear my lack of interest in many other modern (especially western) games is very real.

 

Again, please inform me as to why they are special? I said I gave DA:O a B, that's something isn't it? I think it's cool that Sera is in the game and playable. I can acknowledge some things that make their game more fun than many other very un-fun games out there, but can they (or their fans) acknowledge that their games might not be completely perfect in this respect? I see people acknowledge things they don't like, but the notion that one of things that would be wrong is a failure of repression or justice has been completely incomprehensible when I look at IB and Varric, compare to Cassandra and Viv, and find it completely comprehensible.
 

Can any of them acknowledge at least the slightest possibility that they might not be perfect in this respect? I don't believe I've seen that.

 

I dont play most games that have set protags, or swtich around with set protags, Batman & Catwoman example. I do play that as if I was watching a movie only. I loose interest in FF series due to lack of choices for an RPG. Any RPG that doesnt do CC, will be less favorable to me as well.

 

 

Spoiler

I was thinking of this list http://vgsales.wikia...ite_video_games.

 

Again, I get that most people here prefer those kinds of games generally, and that's fine. I'm simply someone who at the moment doesn't really prefer any games by western game companies, for many of the reasons that presumably BW is fighting against.

 

I mean do you have any idea what happened when I posted "more female characters" on the WoW forums? The WoW forums? It was buried within seconds, the criticism was fast and furious and unrelenting before the thread was locked.

 

So I see this place and the DA:I characters and go hrm, well, maybe this is where I should be going, but whenever I try to raise the issues I see (in this case outfits). Many, not all, but many people reject it out of hand in a kind of fearful way.

 

Then I go, well... maybe I should just  keep playing WoW, I mean, is this so much better? I've tried to give reasons for what I think could be better but people are adamant it makes the game worse.

 

Honestly though, at this point, I'm not even sure I'd want to see DA try and make hot or sexy armor. It would probably come off as contrived and outside their competency, nonetheless, I wish western game companies could find more ways to improve on this dimension generally.

 

I dont play MMOs in general, the games dont have no thrill for me at all. The appearances of women is to attract me into playing them. Hence: Male gamer only adds on some of those MMO's with a female barely covered.

 

That list is only Japanese sold games, with a coupe western games making sales in Japan. If you want to do comparison lists of just countries, fine, I can oblige. That list isnt universal over the world; therefore, cant go by it.

 

 

 

 

EDIT:  Also, I dont mind choices for everyone for armor and clothes. If Iron Bull or one of the other guys was a girl, that would been nice to me, but will enjoy this game regardless. Quality is always better than quantity in my book.

[Ieldra]

 

However, when I come to Bioware, I don't see anything better really. I've been saying I think cute outfits would be fun and it's like 60 pages of ridicule. I've been saying more female characters and it's pages of ridicule. I've been saying the characters are all mostly just too generic and over aggressive and psycho, pages or ridicule. I'll grant that often people are respectful and give reasons that seem pretty logical. It ultimately feels like an equal amount of hatred, just directed in the other direction.

Cute outfits in the context of DAI deserve nothing but ridicule, since they're anathema to the setting and its themes.

 

I'm not seeing why female characters should make up more than half of the cast, and I'm not seeing how an imbalance of one in five between advisor and companion roles constitutes a pattern of repression, especially since the women are people of all types and aren't limited in what they can do by sexist preconceptions. Being a female warrior on Thedas is non-exceptional, being a powerful, self-assertive mage is non-exceptional and people treat them with respect, while the freedom to choose a less...hmm...outgoing occupation still exists. How much more non-sexist can you be?

 

As for characters being generic, you can't judge them before you've seen their whole story. They're set up as archetypes (Blackwall is "the Resolve", Vivienne "The Ambition" and so no), so of course their core characteristics constitute a trope. All important characters in stories are designed around core characteristics the writers consider essential to the story they want to tell. Bioware has been reasonably good so far in making their characters more than only that and have them come across as real people. Much more than your typical JRPG, if what little I've seen of the genre is any indication.

[Althix]

Not sure. If Reaver is a possible spec in DAI - then "sexy." If not - awesome practical armor.

[Seraphim24]

As for characters being generic, you can't judge them before you've seen their whole story. They're set up as archetypes (Blackwall is "the Resolve", Vivienne "The Ambition" and so no), so of course their core characteristics constitute a trope. All important characters in stories are designed around core characteristics the writers consider essential to the story they want to tell. Bioware has been reasonably good so far in making their characters more than only that and have them come across as real people. Much more than your typical JRPG, if what little I've seen of the genre is any indication.

 

A part of the problem is how clearly they seem to be heading in a DA2 direction, which I have played and not enjoyed. Also, they've put a fair amount of information, way more than most games... so many trailers, etc.

 

 

At any rate, some of you guys should really try those JRPGs to see what I'm talking about IMO (or heck just watch a trailer) A proper one like Star Ocean not necessarily an FF. I just think those games are often very fun, for a lot of reasons, mostly I think they specifically aim for just that, fun. There's a lot of people that find other things like Persona and such addicting although I am not necessarily one of them. Especially you posters in the 10k+ range, I mean really, you could have played like 4-5 games by trading a day of posting for a day of playing. .

[PhroXenGold]

Kefka. Pay attention.

 

I brought this discussion up with a lady friend of mine. I showed her, a female - your responses.

 

She said you're full of it. Now hold on. Here's why.

 

Your whole argument is that female armor should be sexy and attractive, and that covering head to toe is unattractive and sexist.

 

Except, that's where your entire argument is flawed.

 

If I put on armor on my human male inquisitor and it covers him head to toe? I expect it to do the same on a woman. If I put a bare chested armor on a male human inquisitor? I expect it to do the same on a woman. Period. That is what I am saying, that is what my friend said, and that is what countless people on this forum have said. Representation. The fact is, most game developers are men. Do you know what this means?

 

Most of the time in a computer game, when you see that scantily clad female who manages to avoid injury? It's because a man made that character. It's because he made what is attractive to him.

 

Pay attention to what female posters have been saying. They've been disagreeing with you. They know what women want. They know what women like, because they are women.

 

I'm willing to bet that if you saw more AAA titles developed by women, the amount of sexualized women would DECREASE.

 

Stop claiming you're fighting the repressed sexuality. Just stop. You're not. You sound more like a GamerGate A-Hole every time you post.

 

This. "Sexualised" women in games are primarily designed by men for men, with the aim of titilating them. Nothing more.

 

I've raised this point several times yet strangely it keeps getting ignored...

[The Elder King]

A part of the problem is how clearly they seem to be heading in a DA2 direction, which I have played and not enjoyed. Also, they've put a fair amount of information, way more than most games... so many trailers, etc.
 
 
At any rate, some of you guys should really try those JRPGs to see what I'm talking about IMO (or heck just watch a trailer) A proper one like Star Ocean not necessarily an FF. I just think those games are often very fun, for a lot of reasons, mostly I think they specifically aim for just that, fun. There's a lot of people that find other things like Persona and such addicting although I am not necessarily one of them. Especially you posters in the 10k+ range, I mean really, you could have played like 4-5 games by trading a day of posting for a day of playing. .

Why do you think they're going to follow DA2's direction?
And I agree. There are plently of Good JRPGs. I enjoy both types of Games.

[puppyofwar]

I find it pretty funny in an ironic way that a guy can claim he support female representation in games while saying Cass, VIvi and Sera are "basically men" because they are "ambitious and aggressive" and "not nice", then act all hurt and confused when everyone point out the audacity of such statement.

 

[Ieldra]

A part of the problem is how clearly they seem to be heading in a DA2 direction, which I have played and not enjoyed. Also, they've put a fair amount of information, way more than most games... so many trailers, etc.

I agree that DA2's companions conformed more closely to a type than I like. At times it was rather silly and made them, indeed, less real. However, I did need to see the whole game to say that.
 

At any rate, some of you guys should really try those JRPGs to see what I'm talking about IMO (or heck just watch a trailer) A proper one like Star Ocean not necessarily an FF. I just think those games are often very fun, for a lot of reasons, mostly I think they specifically aim for just that, fun. There's a lot of people that find other things like Persona and such addicting although I am not necessarily one of them. Especially you posters in the 10k+ range, I mean really, you could have played like 4-5 games by trading a day of posting for a day of playing.

Why would I play a game whose visual style I find unappealing? No doubt there are some good stories and characters in the genre, but I'm pretty sure they have nothing I couldn't find in games with a style I like better. Also, the few I've tried had gameplay aspects I simply hated - lots of button-mashing and prescribed move sequences to win battles, the very definition of "no fun". That was a few years ago though, so if you'd point one out to me that doesn't have such gameplay and tells a good story with interesting characters, I might try it just to expand my horizon.

[GrinningRogue]

Neither.

 

I saw this when scrolling down the thread and heavenly sound effects played in my head. Finally. Something worth squeeing at.
 

[Ieldra]

Honestly though, at this point, I'm not even sure I'd want to see DA try and make hot or sexy armor. It would probably come off as contrived and outside their competency, nonetheless, I wish western game companies could find more ways to improve on this dimension generally.

Perhaps that's because most people wouldn't see what you desire as an improvement. If I want "revealing" - and I'm not saying I don't ever want it - I pass the armor stand by because "revealing" and "armor" is a contradiction in terms. BTW, do you have an answer to that statement? I have yet to see anyone successfully countering it over the years.

[GrinningRogue]

^Don't think he'd address it. Or maybe address it by saying, "it's fantasy, why can't armor be such and such."

[puppyofwar]

Why would I play a game whose visual style I find unappealing? No doubt there are some good stories and characters in the genre, but I'm pretty sure they have nothing I couldn't find in games with a style I like better. Also, the few I've tried had gameplay aspects I simply hated - lots of button-mashing and prescribed move sequences to win battles, the very definition of "no fun". That was a few years ago though, so if you'd point one out to me that doesn't have such gameplay and tells a good story with interesting characters, I might try it just to expand my horizon.

Chrono Trigger,Final Fantasy 6 and Legend of Mana are pretty good.....if you don't mind level grinding. Dragon's Dogma has minimum  story but very detailed CC and solid action gameplay.

 

As for me, I start gaming on Super Famicon with almost exclusively Japanese games for nearly 20 years, than I play Never Winter Nights and never look back.