2576 réponses à ce sujet

[GrinningRogue]

*sigh* I need coffee. Engaging was a mistake. I'm sorry my brain, you are right again.

[Spectre Impersonator]

Romance and sex-appeal are interesting in Bioware games because they go out of their way to make some characters sexy as **** and inevitably the passionate (or perverse) fan base will demand they can romance a spiky alien because his personality and voice are cool. It's telling about what we see to be important in characters at the end of the day.

 

Miranda's big juicy ass was scrumptious, yes, but in the end we go for who and what we care about.   While I have no problem with using purely visual sex appeal as a selling point, it's more important that the character is deep and interesting and likable. The sexiness of one's garb won't mean much.

[Revan Reborn]

Kefka may claim and continue to argue that he is fighting for "sexual equality, expression and liberalism" in games, but clearly nobody is buying that ridiculous argument, and he's likely included in that group. I make the assumption that no one is clearly that naive, which is probably the nicest word I can attribute to his argument.

 

The gaming industry, as others have suggested, is dominated by straight males. Regardless of whether they are trying to be inclusive or not, they will always see things from a certain perspective based on their gender, sexual orientation, and life experiences. It doesn't mean they won't try to make games that relate to other groups, but merely there will always be that bias inherent somewhere.

 

It is irrefutable the art design he continues to defend is one that is meant to be suited towards men. It is irrefutable regardless of the genre, setting, and whether it's practical or not, those designs are being made deliberately, conscious or otherwise. Lets honestly show some awareness and stop trying to claim this art style is meant to "empower" women or benefit them in anyway.

 

Most of these examples that have been posted in this thread are gratuitous and nothing more. They offer nothing in the way of what is practical. They in no way push the narrative or the setting forward. They don't provide character development or in any way strengthen these characters. They clearly are only meant to do one thing, and that is pure titillation. The first thing anyone should learn when making any sort of argument, don't try to make a claim or something you clearly have no actual connection or reference to. If you are not a woman, first and foremost, how would you know what they "want" and what they deem as "liberating"?

 

Romance and sex-appeal are interesting in Bioware games because they go out of their way to make some characters sexy as **** and inevitably the passionate (or perverse) fan base will demand they can romance a spiky alien because his personality and voice are cool. It's telling about what we see to be important in characters at the end of the day.

 

Miranda's big juicy ass was scrumptious, yes, but in the end we go for who and what we care about.   While I have no problem with using purely visual sex appeal as a selling point, it's more important that the character is deep and interesting and likable. The sexiness of one's garb won't mean much.

While I'm sure you understand this point, there is a lot more to Miranda than just being a "barbie doll," and she explains this over the course of ME2 and ME3.

 

I do agree with your overarching point that it's what constitutes the character that truly matters rather than just pure visual appeal. If I feel there is a disconnect between the way a character acts and how I respond, it doesn't matter how she looks, I will have a lack of interest in who she is.

[puppyofwar]

*sigh* I need coffee. Engaging was a mistake. I'm sorry my brain, you are right again.

 

Romance and sex-appeal are interesting in Bioware games because they go out of their way to make some characters sexy as **** and inevitably the passionate (or perverse) fan base will demand they can romance a spiky alien because his personality and voice are cool. It's telling about what we see to be important in characters at the end of the day.

 

Miranda's big juicy ass was scrumptious, yes, but in the end we go for who and what we care about.   While I have no problem with using purely visual sex appeal as a selling point, it's more important that the character is deep and interesting and likable. The sexiness of one's garb won't mean much.

Yeah, that's exactly how Garrus works for me. I still son't find him sexy in any shape or form(...ok maybe just his voice), but he is, bar none, the character I care and love the most. 

[Finnn62]

Romance and sex-appeal are interesting in Bioware games because they go out of their way to make some characters sexy as **** and inevitably the passionate (or perverse) fan base will demand they can romance a spiky alien because his personality and voice are cool. It's telling about what we see to be important in characters at the end of the day.

 

Miranda's big juicy ass was scrumptious, yes, but in the end we go for who and what we care about.    While I have no problem with using purely visual sex appeal as a selling point, it's more important that the character is deep and interesting and likable. The sexiness of one's garb won't mean much.

 

 

Yeah, that's exactly how Garrus works for me. I still son't find him sexy in any shape or form(...ok maybe just his voice), but he is, bar none, the character I care and love the most. 

That's sorta how I went about DA2. I didn't really find either of the female characters super attractive, but I found Fenris' character to be the most interesting and likeable (although, as a straight male I didn't find him attractive), so I had FemHawke romance him. In Dragon Age Origins, Leliana seemed interesting and somewhat attractive, but I wasn't absolutely in love with the character (wasn't particularly fond of her penchant for fancy shoes and tendency toward deceiving people), it was more I thought it would make a interesting story to have my Warden romance her.

 

For Mass Effect, though, Tali'Zorah all the way. The voice was beautifully done, I loved the outfit, she had very endearing dialogue and backstory, and drunken Tali was just hilarious   In Inquisition, I'd say Cassandra seems like what Tali'Zorah was for Mass Effect 2&3, a romance option for which I like almost every aspect of the character. However, if the amiable characterization wasn't there, I most likely wouldn't want to romance them regardless of the outfits they wore.

[PhroXenGold]

Yeah um I've been saying so this entire time, I like the outfits because they are hot. I don't get a boner while I'm playing because it is not strictly speaking that kind of setting, but at least it is also not a strictly realistic setting and so incredibly boring. If it were definitively either, I suspect I would be bored. I'm not pretending sex appeal isn't a part of the picture, because that would be impossible (see above). I'm 100% honest that I like hot things, so honest that I don't pretend to have this fancy division between my "serious settings" and my "playful settings." My joy for such things is universal and transcends mere cultural preference and settings.

 

Also you brazenly insulted Alyn Shir, who is at least a semi-interesting character. Have you played KoA? Have you followed any of her story? No (I'm guessing), you saw her outfit and immediately jumped to the conclusion that her sole purpose was to be a sex object.

 

And even more to the point, why is this an inherently a bad thing? So what, someone is doing something to be sexually attractive? Call the police? This is an actual problem in this day and age? If you are simply bored by it then go your own way and find a very complicated way of expressing interest in sex.

 

If your problem is with excessively simple stories (as I saw many people consider), then your problem is with excessively simple stories, again, not some freaking outfit.

 

And finally, complexity or complex characterization and sex are not remotely mutually exclusive. As far as I can tell, extremely complicated people very often still prefer the pleasures of flesh, or the seductiveness of a certain outfit. It's ok to know Shakespeare and also want to dress like a succubus (or incubus, whatever) on Halloween.

 

No you haven't been saying that. You've been saying that you want to see "empowered" "sexually liberated" characters. When you want nothing of the sort. You just want to perv over scantily clad women. And as I have said several times, there is nothing wrong with this. It's a perfectly natural thing for men to want to do. Pretty much all men do it*. Just don't try to hide it behind a pile of bullshit. Don't pretend you're being progressive. Don't pretend you're "freeing people from puritanism". You're not. You're perving over scantily clad women. Nothing more. 

 

And no, I haven't "insulted" that character. She might have a great personality and an interesting backstory, fine. But that has nothing to do with her appearance which is clearly designed solely to make her object of sexual desire for men. And again, this is fine. But be honest about it. Don't try and pretend that it is something it's not - her appearance is pure unadulterated fanservice. Her outfit and body shape are designed solely to appeal to men in a sexual way. It's not empowering, it's not liberating, it's titillation.

 

Although, if she does indeed have a great character behind it, arguably it does become an issue - the writers felt that such a personality couldn't stand up on it's own so they made her a sex object, which is a sad, but not uttely unjustified reflection of gaming culture.

 

 

*What varies between men - and indeed what leads to threads like this one - is not disliking looking at sexy women in revealing outfits, but when and where we like to look at sexy women (as well as, of course, what we each find sexy - a pneumatic blond with massive silicon breasts in a chianmail bikini doesn't really push my buttons for example...) and whether those sexy outfits fit the setting. For people like me, the middle of a battle tends not to be such a time and place particularly in a historically inspired fanatsy setting like DA.

[Seraphim24]

This whole thread is ridiculous, you guys do realize that right?

 

Look, that drow ranger on the other page was pretty hot, decently hot at least. Lets just not have the fact that she shows cleavage trigger a cavalcade of sexual liberation theory chaos or delving into the depths of the Byzantine Empire that no one cares about here. Is this really so complicated? Cassandra comes off as kinda prudish and the armor looks bad, that's literally the whole point. Period. The end. Wow, so hard, not. I stand by the very first post which was "the hotter the better." By the way that doesn't even mean super revealing undergarment Miley Cyrus style, it could just be, you know, cute, some skin, big deal. Heck, maybe even some proper armor if it was stylish enough like Saskias or something.

 

Contrary to this man's take that

No you haven't been saying that. You've been saying that you want to see "empowered" "sexually liberated" characters. When you want nothing of the sort. You just want to perv over scantily clad women. And as I have said several times, there is nothing wrong with this. It's a perfectly natural thing for men to want to do. Pretty much all men do it*. Just don't try to hide it behind a pile of bullshit. Don't pretend you're being progressive. Don't pretend you're "freeing people from puritanism". You're not. You're perving over scantily clad

 

I have no illusions about admitting that I think their should be hot characters in games, and hopefully hot outfits. If you want to call that perving over scantily clad women then go for it, even though I'd hardly call that Drow Ranger scantily clad, or Saskia's which I'm fairly positive you never read that post. I perv the flaming blazes out of scantily clad women, god forbid I think of such things, and god forbid I want to see such things. And god forbid I think liking cute things and outfits and not being judged for it is what I consider to be progress. It's superficiality itself that needs to be re-liberated back to the wonder of superficiality after having been forcefully liberated to be bad by yes a bunch of puritans. You think your going to guilt trip me or something? If anything this thread has highlighted to me how appearances more than I can possibly fathom in a video game. If not to me, then apparently to a whole lot of other people.

 

Plus really it doesn't even make a difference for the most part. It's just as you said, it's just the clothes, it's not the internal characterization or the overarching depth of the story right? So if that's all that matters, presumably what they wear (less clothes or more clothes) should make no difference right Mr. PhroxenGold?

 

Unless someone posts something really hilarious or interesting I think I'm sensing there isn't anything left here for me, frankly I've already come off as giving way more of an impression that I care about such a miniscule issue than I do already.

[PhroXenGold]

I have no illusions about admitting that I think their should be hot characters in games, and hopefully hot outfits. If you want to call that perving over scantily clad women then go for it, even though I'd hardly call that Drow Ranger scantily clad, or Saskia's which I'm fairly positive you never read that post. I perv the flaming blazes out of scantily clad women, god forbid I think of such things, and god forbid I want to see such things. And god forbid I think liking cute things and outfits and not being judged for it is what I consider to be progress.

 

Plus really it doesn't even make a difference for the most part. It's just sas you said, it's just the clothes, it's not the internal characterization or the overarching depth of the story right? So if that's all that matters, presumably what they wear (less clothes or more clothes) should make no difference right Mr. Psycho?

 

So if it is indeed just about looking at hot women, why the hell do you keep bringing up bullshit like "sexual liberation" that has absolutely nothing to do with it? Women getting their breasts out to satisfy male desires is not in any way liberating and expecting them to wear sensible outfits in combat is in no way puritan.

[Seraphim24]

I never said it was just about looking at hot women. I just think it's a really essential part of my overall fantasy adventure, with quests and dragons and stuff, that the people also look good. I fail to see how you can't have both. Which means hot men and respective outfits for the women too, of course.

 

And yes I'm calling you puritan because it's a video game and who freaking cares. Puritan! PURITAN! I cannot believe that upsets you so much.

 

I think your bias is just unknown to you, it's superficiality itself that needs to be liberated. The fact that you consider as inherently so valueless and trifling is precisely why it needs to liberated.

[slimgrin]

Someone call the morality police. 

 

[Seraphim24]

Ew I can't stand that game, it is not hot to have exaggerated proportions on characters. One of the main reasons I didn't game even after finding Odin Sphere to be relatively strong.

[Almostfaceman]

This whole thread is ridiculous, you guys do realize that right?

 

Look, that drow ranger on the other page was pretty hot, decently hot at least. Lets just not have the fact that she shows cleavage trigger a cavalcade of sexual liberation theory chaos or delving into the depths of the Byzantine Empire that no one cares about here. Is this really so complicated? Cassandra comes off as kinda prudish and the armor looks bad, that's literally the whole point. Period. The end. Wow, so hard, not. I stand by the very first post which was "the hotter the better." By the way that doesn't even mean super revealing undergarment Miley Cyrus style, it could just be, you know, cute, some skin, big deal. Heck, maybe even some proper armor if it was stylish enough like Saskias or something.

 

Contrary to this man's take that

 

I have no illusions about admitting that I think their should be hot characters in games, and hopefully hot outfits. If you want to call that perving over scantily clad women then go for it, even though I'd hardly call that Drow Ranger scantily clad, or Saskia's which I'm fairly positive you never read that post. I perv the flaming blazes out of scantily clad women, god forbid I think of such things, and god forbid I want to see such things. And god forbid I think liking cute things and outfits and not being judged for it is what I consider to be progress. It's superficiality itself that needs to be re-liberated back to the wonder of superficiality after having been forcefully liberated to be bad. You think your going to guilt trip me or something? You come off like a raving nerd behind his little computer, angry that girls don't like him and determined to make everyone unhappy for liking something you can't have.

 

Plus really it doesn't even make a difference for the most part. It's just sas you said, it's just the clothes, it's not the internal characterization or the overarching depth of the story right? So if that's all that matters, presumably what they wear (less clothes or more clothes) should make no difference right Mr. PhroxenGold?

 

Bolded are strawmen. 

 

There is no wonder to superficiality, it's taking something that should be taken as a person and reducing. 

 

You're tilting at windmills with this sexual repression stuff and progress. Women have been striving to be taken more seriously, come out of the home and into the workplace. They haven't been striving to be sex objects, they've been that since the beginning of humanity. 

 

Some people like a little more realism in their fantasy games. You like less, we like more. And even that depends on the game. That's all it really is, taste in fantasy. Take of your shining armor, there are no women to liberate here. You may want to go check out Saudi Arabia. 

[Seraphim24]

You're tilting at windmills with this sexual repression stuff and progress. Women have been striving to be taken more seriously, come out of the home and into the workplace. They haven't been striving to be sex objects, they've been that since the beginning of humanity. 

 

Some people like a little more realism in their fantasy games. You like less, we like more. And even that depends on the game. That's all it really is, taste in fantasy. Take of your shining armor, there are no women to liberate here. You may want to go check out Saudi Arabia. 

 

Have you ever even had a girlfriend or boyfriend? Who the flying doughnuts are you people to become such experts on women or sexuality?

 

The women that want to be taken more seriously (because sex and that isn't serious? Again, there's the bias), can do that. If women hate looking attractive and want to be prudish and whatever else they should totally be free and liberated to do that.

 

But how come this suddenly means no one can look attractive anymore? Or that being attractive is somehow bad? These things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

There is no wonder to superficiality

 

This part is 100% wrong, and the depth of the error is what makes me believe you have maybe never had a romantic relationship in your entire life.

[Heimdall]

See, it might be easier to take you seriously if you didn't insist that women that don't dress for sex appeal are prudes.

[aTigerslunch]

About time you admitted it Kefka.   

 

Now, say, Cassies armor, in your opinion, is not sexy, and its your opinion she seems prudish to you.

 

 

Several of us disagree, you still make it out as a fact that she is prudish, when we don't know about her. 

 

Personally, I like her armor, it doesn't give me the vibe that she is prudish. Though I am not against clothing styles that can show skin, I am for practical armor that doesn't show skin. I do however like everyone having a choice too, I just wont choose it myself as far as armor is concerned.

[Almostfaceman]

Have you ever even had a girlfriend or boyfriend? Who the flying doughnuts are you people to become such experts on women or sexuality?

 

The women that want to be taken more seriously (because sex and that isn't serious? Again, there's the bias), can do that. If women hate looking attractive and want to be prudish and whatever else they should totally be free and liberated to do that.

 

But how come this suddenly means no one can look attractive anymore? Or that being attractive is somehow bad? These things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Women have been looking attractive forever, and men haven't stopped them. There is nothing to liberate here. Who said no one can look attractive? Look! There's a windmill! 

 

Again, the country your looking to make a stand in isn't mine, jump on a Saudi board, that's one of the countries that sticks their women in burqas. 

 

It IS possible for a person to be experienced with women (which I am) and for them to have a different opinion than you do. 

 

Now, the folks who want to play Dragon Age want a little more realism in their game. You don't. Don't call them names or tell them their being repressive. That's ridiculous. 

[Seraphim24]

MEN HAVEN'T STOPPED THEM ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 

Did you not just cite the example of Saudi Arabia? Where women are supposed to be fully clothed in giant black burkas at all times.

 

The PURITAN ERA that I was casually referencing so much.

[aTigerslunch]

I am solely laughing very hard about the Puritan crap.  When we said we do like attractive and sexy clothing!

[Seraphim24]

Fine here is what I propose, you guys insist playing DA and having it be free of sexualization or so on and so forth. In return, you literally never, ever, ever, bring up the subject as a matter of women's liberation or any other such thing in any other game ever made where it is present.

 

Then we can believe we're all just sharing subjective opinions and being honky dory and having a grand old time discussing the pros and cons of Cassandra's outfit.

 

I'm not talking about you Tiger, but this guy literally said men have never stopped women from being attractive. That was mind blowing.

[PhroXenGold]

I never said it was just about looking at hot women. I just think it's a really essential part of my overall fantasy adventure, with quests and dragons and stuff, that the people also look good. I fail to see how you can't have both. Which means hot men and respective outfits for the women too, of course.

 

And yes I'm calling you puritan because it's a video game and who freaking cares. Puritan! PURITAN! I cannot believe that upsets you so much.

 

I think your bias is just unknown to you, it's superficiality itself that needs to be liberated. The fact that you consider as inherently so valueless and trifling is precisely why it needs to liberated.

 

What the Christ are you talking about? Seriously?

 

At no point in this thread has anyone anyone suggested they want to cover women up because of puritainism or a desire to avoid sexuality. They have done so out of simple practicality. Exposing a lot of flesh in combat is likely to get you killed. The only person who ever brings up sexuality is you, and yet you do it in a bizzarely twisted manner in which the blatant objectification of women is a positive thing which "liberates their sexuality" and yet presenting women as serious believable characters who act in a rational manner (e.g. not going into battle in a bikini) is oppresive...

[Ieldra]

You're just pulling another strawman out of your hat, Kefka. Of course women sometimes want to look hot for men. The thing is: in combat situations they most certainly won't want that!

 

This is all so much not about puritanism, liberation or such things. It's about the integrity of fantastic worlds and the importance of dressing for the occasion if it can mean the difference between life and death.

[Almostfaceman]

MEN HAVEN'T STOPPED THEM ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 

Did you not just cite the example of Saudi Arabia? Where women are supposed to be fully clothed in giant black burkas at all times.

 

The PURITAN ERA that I was casually referencing so much.

 

Did you make it past 1st grade?

 

How about this very freaking forum? You all have been stopping it at least for this game, eh? Still waiting on proof your not some 30 year old behind his computer and who has never touched a female or can speak or has any experience on sexual matters at all.

 

That's right, men haven't stopped them. There may be problem areas on the planet in different moments in history, but there have been women being sexy since the dawn of time. Get a grip. And knock it off with the insults.

 

On this very freaking forum, people have patiently explained to you their reasoning for what they want in their immersion, and it's got nothing to do with repressing women. 

[Seraphim24]

I'll settle for just having people leave all these other games alone. I'm not saying this was anyone here, in fact, maybe it isn't anybody, but when I get excited for Bayonetta 2 and have to read some numb nut who thinks who is too sexualized, even after admitting the setting was very outlandish and wild to begin with, and after most of you have said that you like things in the proper settings, it's getting really old.

 

Just don't ever show up there and we can all hold hands about people's individual preferences.

 

That includes completely dissing SO4 as freaking eye candy or whatever other things you guys conjure up without having played any of those games.

 

That's right, men haven't stopped them. There may be problem areas on the planet in different moments in history, but there have been women being sexy since the dawn of time. Get a grip. And knock it off with the insults.

 

On this very freaking forum, people have patiently explained to you their reasoning for what they want in their immersion, and it's got nothing to do with repressing women. 

 

I don't know what history book you use, but literally every western civilization from probably 0 BC has had varying degrees of repression against women for their sexuality. Since I'm honestly just blown away by your attempt at historical inaccuracy though I'm just not going to deal with that one anymore.

 

By the way, do you really think at those points people just said oh I hate women, um, of course not (well maybe some did), they probably gave nice little surface reasons like "we need to be setting appropriate" or "the titillation of men will reduce productivity in the fields," or whatever nonsense reason. Sorry if I'm calling your bluff on this video game thing.

[Heimdall]

Fine here is what I propose, you guys insist playing DA and having it be free of sexualization or so on and so forth. In return, you literally never, ever, ever, bring up the subject as a matter of women's liberation or any other such thing in any other game ever made where it is present.

Then we can believe we're all just sharing subjective opinions and being honky dory and having a grand old time discussing the pros and cons of Cassandra's outfit.

I'm not talking about you Tiger, but this guy literally said men have never stopped women from being attractive. That was mind blowing.

The only one that ever brought up women's liberation or whatnot was you, who keeps insisting that dressing in impractical titillating outfits is somehow a positive over "Puritan" (Your misuse of the term aside) practical outfits that actually make sense in context. Your dismissal of any women that doesn't strut around in a highly sexualized outfit as prudes doesn't reflect well on you at all

[Seraphim24]

The only one that ever brought up women's liberation or whatnot was you, who keeps insisting that dressing in impractical titillating outfits is somehow a positive over "Puritan" (Your misuse of the term aside) practical outfits that actually make sense in context. Your dismissal of any women that doesn't strut around in a highly sexualized outfit as prudes doesn't reflect well on you at all

 

When did I say I dismissed them? I'm for hot, so I dismiss women who don't strut around in highly sexualized outfit. So many guilt trips and false implciations. It's truly pathetic to watch at this point.

 

I know plenty of not remotely well dressed women who are incredibly interesting, and that's probably occurred in a video game context as well, however don't then make attractivness or an active interest in hot type clothes or whatever a freaking enemy.

 

Well, ok, or do, but you will be proven wrong in the long term, such a thing is not an enemy, nor will it likely ever be, and I know you people don't like to be wrong.

 

Now what will the definition of attractive be? That I don't know, and that will always be a caveat because that is continually evolving. Paying no heed to it though is not the way to go.