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The choice between "sexy" and awesome armor


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#2301
Lady Luminous

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No offense but when you started going "I am to be taken in a serious manner, I will dress the part. I will not display my 'assets' in order to entice others. I will avoid looking as a hypersexualized bimbo."

 

 That's kind of all I'm getting at. I have nothing against serious people or who feel they are being highly pressured by a world to be attractive or something. It's interesting to look at the source of that impulse though? Why does this have to be about sex? I'm not dismissing your feelings but I'm seriously questioning that the reason for all that when everything you mentioned is pretty common for sexual relations. If it's commonplace and normal it shouldn't be offensive, which means it has to be context-specific, not inherent.
 

 

Okay, once again, my attractiveness is not diminished when I decide not to wear a miniskirt and opt for something more conservative and pin my hair up.

 

Why should my attractiveness hinge on whether some skin is showing?


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#2302
slimgrin

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Okay, once again, my attractiveness is not diminished when I decide not to wear a miniskirt and opt for something more conservative and pin my hair up.

 

Why should my attractiveness hinge on whether some skin is showing?

 

Attractive is a very careful word for you to choose. Skin, proportion and curves advertise sex appeal. The more you cover it up, the harder 'sexy' is to find. You have a beef with that, take it up with evolution. 


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#2303
GrinningRogue

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Here you go:

 

BZdS28rCcAA9BQN.jpg

For some reason, guy on far right looks like Kaidan at glance. Now I can't stop imagining Kaidan wearing these things. This feels... bizarre


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#2304
Seraphim24

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and I doubt anybody else is here, either.

 

Seriously doubt that, thanks to the anonymity of the internet we shall never know.

 

It makes perfect sense to me. People can go against what makes logical sense for the setting they are in, because some individuals have vastly different opinions, some even that completely defy logic (such as wearing skimpy armour into battle would). Believable, practical armour is something that makes sense both in the real world and within the Dragon Age setting, as evidenced by armour in Dragon Age having an armour value and by having also mechanics for armour penetration, so it stands to reason that the great majority of people will wear protective armour. If there's somebody who, in character, really doesn't see an edge up in living as being more important than attracting attention -- okay, then. All I ask is that it obviously be a facet of that person's character, and not their entire character.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that people were arguing otherwise, though. I think most people were fairly clear that they just want the great majority of the armour choices to be reasonable and protective, and to have it taken into account with regards to the protective value of the armour if there are less protective pieces of armour available.
 

 

I'm not going to pretend it was anyone other than me that suggested these simple appeals to logic and realism were hiding something else entirely. Think of it like this, I don't find many games appealing, I see people wielding the saber of social justice and, go... hmm... yeah, you know, maybe these games do kind of suck (not, are good or bad, right or wrong, that crap) for reasons that are something like that. Not necessarily that it's sexist or repressive but hey there aren't any female characters, hey, the clothes suck. I haven't played a GTA in a long time, for instance.

 

But now I go, yeah, I feel somethings off about DA:I in the same way. Is it less? Well... maybe... it's not very impressive though. I don't get why I can't use the SJ sword and plant it firmly in the chest of DA. I don't think there are very many awesome games these days, BW included. If we're talking about providing a fun and engaging experience for people dissatisfied with mainstream games Japan has vastly outstripped BW in that respect, at least for me. Although they still have their fair share of problems of course.

 

You could say while because you are wrong, in the way people have been stamping their feet, but frankly it started off when I was going hey isn't this kind of like Puritan England or something? I wasn't really trying to prove a holistic concept, I was just thinking, isn't this fundamentally the same attitude? My own idea, but then people's extreme hypersensitives and over-reactions, as well as resort to insults struck me as meaning maybe there was more truth to that than I suspected. No one insults someone or comes out of lurker status to address something they deem completely harmless or incorrect, for the most part. The harder I pressed the more it made sense to me.

 

Is it really so horrible to be possibly guilty of conservatism? Why is that such a horrible thing here? As it stands, the extreme insularity leads me to believe that it's really no better here than elsewhere. Also, the end objective is actually to see a more fun game, not a worse one. As it stands, I don't believe the game will be very fun, whatever other objectives or goals it meets or doesn't meet.

 

Can I chalk that up to the fact that they are over-sensitized to criticisms from past criticism? No, because I seriously have no idea what's going on here. If I think a bimbofication game with pure titillation is being offered to me or a man's manfest then I don't freaking play it. The fact that most people have an obsession with this issue suggests they're the ones who prefer and play those games, not me.

 

I mean really, I didn't even know H games existed or whatever until the other day.



#2305
grumpymooselion

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In that case, it would be available to all PCs, but I see your point at least in the abstract.


Indeed it would, hence the moderate perspective. It's not about gender, it's about variety regardless.

In regards to clothing, and indeed almost everything other than armour, I would agree -- even just one or two sets of armour that are in the game, and have relevant drawbacks, I wouldn't mind being less protective (I would mind if they afforded the same armour bonus as other sets; that doen't make sense). I do think that wanting to wear something that affords very little protection into battle would be by far a minority opinion, but again, I wouldn't mind seeing a character who it made sense for wearing it. If there was such a character that it made sense for, I then wouldn't mind if you could take their armour, one way or another. Since it is very unlikely that someone would want to trade in a greater chance of keeping alive for looking 'hot', I would not expect this to be very many, if any, characters. I wouldn't've minded if Isabela wore revealing leather armour, for instance -- it would've suited her character. I did somewhat mind her wearing what she did wear, due to how impractical it is for what she did, but I can tolerate it better with that character than I could if Aveline had worn something equally impractical.


One would think if they were more revealing that there would be some reason, and its main point would be one other than protection. This is especially notable where Mage gear is concerned, but keep in mind that DA has a history of revealing armors, most notably on a Mage and a Rogue character, with the Rogue's gear keeping up with what it needed to be. This suggests that DA and DA2, and thus DA in general. Absurdities like this are obviously intended, and we're seeing more of it with the Iron Bull it seems. These things give us a measure for what is practical, even when absurd, in the universe. One just accepts that it works because it has to work for the game to work, otherwise a character like the Iron Bull would go entirely unused.

Still I'd tend to agree that gear that covered less would be less protective, but would have its own reason for wearing it beyond the visual - likely having to do with mobility or magical perks.

Clothing, certainly. Armour... well, there have been cultures who -- for whatever reason, be it heat, lack of resources, et cetera -- haven't worn much if any armour. If there is such a culture where it makes sense in Dragon Age, I'm fine with them not wearing much armour, equally between men and women. However, once people actually do start wearing armour, they cover up their vital areas first. That includes the chest and the abdomen, which are the areas most commonly left exposed by 'sexy' armour. Even in ancient Egypt, a very hot climate, soldiers often wore a band across the torso (generally the first area people protect), and the Pharoahs sometimes wore more complete armour. It's very rare that if somebody has the means to protect themselves more fully going into battle, they don't.


It's easy to forget how protective wear evolved over thousands of years, and devolved. Moving ahead for one culture, sagnating in another, having cultural strings attached to some, but practicality dominating over others, expirements and ideas of what would work, some panning out, others failing. One culture ahead prior going backwards, or collapsing, another pulling ahead. All throughout our timeframe, side by side - even today we aren't all on the same level, but we never have been.

The idea of what was important to protect has also evolved over time, we often think of the torso, but we have a very in depth knowledge of what's in there now - it's hard to put ourselves in the perspective of a culture that protected the feet over their torso or neck, or their hands because they needed them to work tools, over other parts. What's been protected has changed a lot, not as much as 'how' we protected ourselves, obviously. And then there's the 'why' protective things for the feet went far beyond battle or hunting, while a culture that didn't typically protect the torso could easily still wrap themselves in skins and furs against weather. There's no simple overview of this, because Human culture goes throughout all of recorded history, and well into times prior.

Interesting choices are rather subjective, but yes, I agree that there should be a variety of choices, especially with regards to armour customisation.


No doubt, but I still feel it's important to think of things audiences haven't seen before, while this ensuring that a given proposition follows. Note that this doesn't exclude the old, or the less less surprising, this is an accent, a supplemental to the greater whole.

I'm fine with finding a wacky suit of armour every now and again. Perhaps some mad mage left a particularly odd suit hidden away in a cave or whatnot. That's cool. What I've been arguing for is that the norm, the basic suits of armour, and indeed most if not all of the best suits of armour, are practical and the sort of thing the average warrior would be wearing on the battlefield.


With the DA universe we go by what we've seen, best for the Inquisitor? We'll see, but best for a companion? They'll look as they look, and they'll have to be effective, regardless of whether a character like the Iron Bull is in practical, fully protective, armor. Remember, a setting . . . sets . . . its own levels of acceptable absurdity, and it's been willing to sacrifice practicality for 'because we want the character to look like this' since the beginning, with DA:O.

Right or wrong? You know my position at this point, I'm okay with all variations of armor, practical and impractical, beyond and in between, plain and ornate and otherwise . . . because variety is what I find when I look at reality. People never cease to surprise or amaze me.

#2306
Lady Luminous

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Sure it exists in this game.

 

We have Iron Bull, bless his wierd pants and harness obsession.

 

And you know what? It's kind of silly, but I don't mind, because he's a qunari and qunari seem to hate shirts, as a rule.

 

I still think it's because he was from Par Vollen (if I recall correctly) which is basically rainforest. Why would you wear a shirt in that if you didn't have to? Thus a habit/penchant for going shirtless even when in a different climate.


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#2307
grumpymooselion

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OK I'm coming back, if only because someone presents arguments that are much more valid than Kefka's insanities, which are now coupled with ad hominems for extra fun.

 

Variety is good, but it's not the be-all and end-all. Whatever reality dictates, within a work of fiction it's very common for the creator(s) to want a cohesive look, to some degree anyway. Comic books often have everyone be extremely muscled regardless of their occupation, or games like Gears of War. In LOTR each race has its own particular ''style'', in both books and films. In Star Wars, Jedi wear robes, evil Jedi wear dark robes, smugglers wear cowboy outfits, and soldiers wear plastic. Warhammer 40K has spikes, giant shoulders, or spikes on giant shoulders for almost everyone. So on and so forth. A coherent visual design is definitely a vital part of some franchises or works; who would imagine Sin City in color, Pokemon with gritty monsters, or Sherlock Holmes in anything else than his legendary outfit?

 

For Inquisition (and hell, historically for Dragon Age as a whole), it seems obvious to me Bioware has gone for a relatively cohesive view; people dress fully, warriors in metal armor, rogues in leather or vests of some sorts, mages in robes or longcoats, and civilians in various cloth attires depending on their gender/occupation/nationality/etc. This is by no means a hard rule, but it's definitely a prevalent aestethic. You have exceptions, like the Qunari wearing less than other warriors in the series, but it's a consistent feature of their people. It never comes across to me as gratuitous fanservice. And you can slap a heavy armor on both Sten and Iron Bull if you so desire.

 

And then there are characters like Morrigan and Isabella, for instance,a nd impractical armors that the Warden and Hawke could equip, impractical not always meaninging skimpy, mind you. Even the Champion's set in DA2, while covering, wasn't necessarily practical, a highly stylized thing that some liked, others hated and many more were in the middle or indifferent to entirely. These are a few examples, but the point being, impracticality is an element of the series, not the only element, simply one. In this sense, DA, over its many iterations, and not just the games, has set its own rules that go beyond what's practical in quite a few ways. It's only to be expected, DA has a fantastic setting and a few absurd elements are to be expected.

 

Regardless, the mistake is in thinking of one gender, variety isn't for one or another, it's for all. I'll take Sydney (Vagrant Story) alongside a fully armored warrior, just as I'll take Isabella right alongside Aveline. All have their place, their own flavor, and add to the expeirence in decent ways.


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#2308
Lady Luminous

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Attractive is a very careful word for you to choose. Skin, proportion and curves advertise sex appeal. The more you cover it up, the harder 'sexy' is to find. You have a beef with that, take it up with evolution. 

 

Simply because that is the norm doesn't mean that I can't find conservative outfits lovely and sexy.

 

white-jeans-girl.jpg

 

This isn't showing very much skin or curves, and she's not wearing heels, but I still find her gorgeous.


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#2309
slimgrin

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Sure, but less sexual. Don't pretend a pair of pants and a sharp mind will override sexual stimuli. 



#2310
grumpymooselion

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Simply because that is the norm doesn't mean that I can't find conservative outfits lovely and sexy.

 

white-jeans-girl.jpg

 

This isn't showing very much skin or curves, and she's not wearing heels, but I still find her gorgeous.

 

That's because she is. Revealing, not revealing, in between, beyond - all of these things can be attractive, in and of themselves or to the right eye, though there are points to be made about whether clothing fits well, clothing colors versus body/hair/eye colors and general design regardless of how revealing. Beauty comes in many forms, and this is regardless of gender, and none of them are wrong nor should they be snubbed.

 

I tend to go with, "whatever a person prefers for themselves" which seems best, and just live with the fact that some people with like it, some will not, some will be indifferent and any number of others may have reactions in between or beyond such absolutes. And they're all as much allowed to feel or say such things as I am to stand in the middle and try to get people on vastly different sides of a thought, as well as those in between or outside of it, to find a way to reconcile rather than toss out the things they don't like about one another's preferences.


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#2311
Lady Luminous

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Sure, but less sexual. Don't pretend a pair of pants and a sharp mind will override sexual stimuli. 

 

Personally I actually find someone intelligent and witty extremely sexy.

 

It can turn someone I'm not attracted to into someone I want to bed in a moment; is that not overriding sexual stimuli?


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#2312
Jeremiah12LGeek

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I'm very much all for the availability of armour choices, including "sexy" or "revealing" ones, and I don't think people who choose to have characters wear such outfits should be shamed for it.

 

But I'm really uncomfortable with the borderline-aggressive position that comes awfully close to criticizing people for choosing not to wear "sexy" or "revealing" outfits. That is a whole new, and disturbing, form of entitlement. People should wear what makes them happy and comfortable. Shaming someone over differing fashion values is... sad.


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#2313
GrinningRogue

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I think first impression is important. Without the sexy appearance holding the viewer's attention, they are forced to find some other adjective to attribute the character to. It switches the entire focus from appearance to character.


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#2314
Almostfaceman

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Yeah I'm just a super sexist annoyed person that I can't have a super bimbo girl waiting on me left and right, I can't stand anyone else's opinion and never try to find common ground, and everything I do is horribly flawed because it doesn't measure up to my regular PoS game that has nothing of value in it whatsoever except pure titillation. I also discount the opinion of women.

 

Oh wait that's you.

 

u%20mad_zpsdtsuq7zn.gif


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#2315
Lady Luminous

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I'm very much all for the availability of armour choices, including "sexy" or "revealing" ones, and I don't think people who choose to have characters wear such outfits should be shamed for it.

 

But I'm really uncomfortable with the borderline-aggressive position that comes awfully close to criticizing people for choosing not to wear "sexy" or "revealing" outfits. That is a whole new, and disturbing, form of entitlement. People should wear what makes them happy and comfortable, and shaming someone over differing fashion values is... sad.

 

Also, if you look through this thread, people who are arguing for more practical armour are saying that they want these choices for the battlefield.

 

No one has been against ever wearing sexy clothing in a game, just simply not to go spelunking in the deeproads or into battle. We just want some awesome and protective armour choices.


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#2316
Almostfaceman

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Sure, but less sexual. Don't pretend a pair of pants and a sharp mind will override sexual stimuli. 

 

Happens all the time. It's what separates us from animals. 


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#2317
Hanako Ikezawa

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People, stop insulting other posters. Personal attacks are against the Site Rules. Site Rules that you agreed to follow when you made your account here. 


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#2318
slimgrin

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Happens all the time. It's what separates us from animals. 

 

And flat earth theorists.

 

Damn those breasts, just knew it was a scam.


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#2319
Seraphim24

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Kefka, stop insulting other posters. Personal attacks are against the Site Rules. Site Rules that you agreed to follow when you made your account here. 

 

I'm not responding to any of those things anymore for any reason.



#2320
Hanako Ikezawa

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I'm not responding to any of those things anymore for any reason. I don't know what you expect when people call you sexist, dumb, and a bazillion other things, inanities, sociopath, pretty much everything under the sun.

 

Plus that was just my opinion on the matter, it wasn't an insult. I think that guy was probably just sexist and liked bimbo-ification games... just my opinion.

 

If you want to talk about insults you do realize there have been plenty levied against me.

I'm not saying those who insult you are allowed to any more than you are allowed to insult them. You're just supposed to ignore and report them if they do those things rather than do the same. 


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#2321
GrinningRogue

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Also, if you look through this thread, people who are arguing for more practical armour are saying that they want these choices for the battlefield.

 

No one has been against ever wearing sexy clothing in a game, just simply not to go spelunking in the deeproads or into battle. We just want some awesome and protective armour choices.

Spelunking in the deeproads with only furry briefs.... *cringes*


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#2322
Lady Luminous

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I'm not responding to any of those things anymore for any reason. I don't know what you expect when people call you sexist, dumb, and a bazillion other things, inanities, sociopath, pretty much everything under the sun. I'm going to defend myself, but now that doing so is apparently an insult I'm just going to ignore them.

 

Plus that was just my opinion on the matter, it wasn't an insult. I think that guy was probably just sexist and liked bimbo-ification games... just my opinion.

 

If you want to talk about insults you do realize there have been plenty levied against me.

 

I'm going to be as gentle as I can when I say this:

 

Saying "It's just my opinion" cannot shield you from the fact that some of the things you say are hurtful, rude, and oblivious.


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#2323
Almostfaceman

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And flat earth theorists.

 

Damn those breasts, just knew it was a scam.

 

You may experience, as I have, that human sexuality can be a very complex thing. Nudity is just part of the equation. 


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#2324
Lady Luminous

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Spelunking in the deeproads with only furry briefs.... *cringes*

 

Ugh, bugs and stalkers crawling up my miniskirt? No thank youuu.



#2325
AresKeith

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Still surprised this thread hasn't been locked and certain people banned


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