40 réponses à ce sujet

[Hiemoth]

This is the first topic ever here, so my apologies in advance if it ends up being a little bit messy in explanation. I also deeply hope there isn't already a thread on this topic, although I couldn't find any when checking.

 

I am largely really hyped for the coming DAI game and, as a fan of both DAO and DA2, find myself satisfied with most of the approaches they have been hyping for the game. There are two things, though, that have been giving me slight hesitations over personal enjoyment of the game. One is the increased focus on the crafting system, as I personally always get more of a kick of finding an epic weapon or a piece of armor instead of finding materials to craft a piece of armor that can be replicated. Just a personal preference.

 

 However, the thing I am more concerned of is the lack of health generation, as I have found that component to always be a big drag and just lead to backtracking. It isn't anything new, though, and I have been adjusting to the thought. However, when watching the newest twitch gameplay demo, I found myself pondering on how much it limits the party composition. One thing I quite enjoyed in DA2 was that even at the harder difficulties, you could manage with very different party compositions, as long as you kept a constant eye on the battles, and thus ended up constantly changing the party I was using. In DAI, at least based on all the discussions and demos I've seen so far, the need for a party composition seems to a bit more rigid, thanks to a large part due to the non-regenerating health and the effort to avoid damage to all degrees, which in turn seems to require a certain roles being filled. It just, to me, seems to limit the kind of character combinations one might want to try, especially for larger missions, instead just sticking to the characters you use all the time.

 

 This is, of course, a simple concern at the time as it impossible to say anything concrete before playing the game. It is just the one time that continues to gnaw at me as I watch the gameplay demos. It doesn't help that in both examples in the Twitch fights, most party members took a lot of damage already in the initial fights at the normal difficulty levels.

[baconluigi]

If this becomes a problem for me then I'll probably just switch to easy

[NoForgiveness]

I'm really worried about the no regen thing now. I thought it was going to regen to like half. But I saw in that video it only regens above the one hit area and that's it.

[Devil's Avocado]

The crafting doesn't seem to be that much of a concern since you'll still find plenty of dropped weapons from your enemies/treasure items. There were some in the recent Twitch stream.

 

I think the devs were dicking around, you can tell they weren't really paying attention so even though they were playing on normal, they weren't really trying. I'm also concerned about no Health regen when it comes to exploration since I'm the type the explore a large amount of an area as much as I can and get frustrated when there's plot barrier or level barrier blocking my way. (Final fantasy XII reminds me of this) But if it must be in, I would like an easy way to back out of an area so I don't have to walk through the whole place again just to get more potions and come back in.

 

Now, I do like that there's a larger emphasize on CC, I enjoyed playing mages that were supportive since I could experience the awesomeness of what a mage can do vs hitting the heal button all the time and wasting my magic. If you've played DA a few times you'll start to notice you really don't need a healer even during boss fights.

[Hiemoth]

The crafting doesn't seem to be that much of a concern since you'll still find plenty of dropped weapons from your enemies/treasure items. There were some in the recent Twitch stream.

 

I think the devs were dicking around, you can tell they weren't really paying attention so even though they were playing on normal, they weren't really trying. I'm also concerned about no Health regen when it comes to exploration since I'm the type the explore a large amount of an area as much as I can and get frustrated when there's plot barrier or level barrier blocking my way. (Final fantasy XII reminds me of this) But if it must be in, I would like an easy way to back out of an area so I don't have to walk through the whole place again just to get more potions and come back in.

 

Now, I do like that there's a larger emphasize on CC, I enjoyed playing mages that were supportive since I could experience the awesomeness of what a mage can do vs hitting the heal button all the time and wasting my magic. If you've played DA a few times you'll start to notice you really don't need a healer even during boss fights.

 

I noticed the dropped items as well, but my concern is mostly due to the fact that on good weapons and armors they keep going back to the crafting in the hyping and how not really spoken about epic loot in anyway. Again, need to play the actual game to know for sure what the system for that is, just prefer items with stories in them. Even the crafted armor in DAO came with a story while here it just seems get that concept.

 

And I agree, they weren't given the battle the full attention, but it still found it a little bit worrisome. Especially since I kind don't enjoy having to give every single minor combat situation that level of attention just to be able to continue exploring a little further or not find myself in an un-winnable situation in a plot mission.

[10K]

I believe this will cause players to think more carefully in who they're going to bring with them. Talking with people who have played nightmare difficulty on both DA:O and DA2, I found a lot of them would run with all casters most of the time leaving warriors and duel wielding rogues alone. I found myself doing this alot also, it was simpler in  a way. I like what BW is trying to do because it may cause me and others to actually give warriors and duel wielding rogues more time in the party. But I don't know, that's just my two cents

[Bmal Suj]

I can deal with no regen... what's irking me is the TOTAL LACK OF HEALING SPELLS!!

Healing mage was core to the way I played DA:O, and DA2 (although they really sucked the healing power out of the mage for DA2)... now it's gone... so angry...

[PenguinPowered]

I am also super excited about DA:I and have been re-playing all the old games and reading the books.  I also love the role a healing mage played in the party and the challenge of keeping them safe and alive and it seems like a HUGE change in direction and one I am really dubious about.  Of everything I have seen of the game so far, this is the part that seems like it might kill it for me.

[Gileadan]

Doesn't it actually give you more freedom, since there is no more healer you are required to bring along?

 

Of course, you still need all three classes for exploration. Warriors smash doors, rogues pick locks, mages magically restore broken bridges... so leaving any class at home may prevent you from completely exploring or looting your surroundings.

[Hiemoth]

Doesn't it actually give you more freedom, since there is no more healer you are required to bring along?

 

Of course, you still need all three classes for exploration. Warriors smash doors, rogues pick locks, mages magically restore broken bridges... so leaving any class at home may prevent you from completely exploring or looting your surroundings.

 

I don't know, and not just because I haven't played it yet. I actually felt in DA2 allowed me to try several party compositions and not be as reliant on the healers as in DAO, with part of it being that you could take some damage in the battle and come back from it.

 

Now while it is impossible to say before playing it, it seems that DAI almost requires to have that tank with you or to have that mage to cast barrier, and in that sense requiring that very traditional party make-up instead of giving room to try different things. This is my main concern for the game.

[Tragoudistros]

This is a game about strategy. Any composition can work IF you are willing to adapt your strategy. 4 mages, which is possible!!!, will fight differently than 2 rogues and 2 warriors.
Anyone who claims that something iss required is not willing to think outside the box.
If it's harder, but you're having fun, cool!
If it makes easier and you're having fun, go for it!

If you saw the twitch stream, you saw that warriors can build Guard, they have stonewall/shieldwalll so they don't need mages.
Traps are an option. All rouges can trap an area to high hell, strike from the distance and all vanish in stealth. Enemies can get lost in your mine field and disintegrate.
4 warriors can take turns building guard and taunting and using stone/shield wall; immortality, while hammering away.

With deemphesized healing, you are not forced to have a dedicated healer, with 0 other skills lol, and instead will have 4 characters with something to contribute, not 3 characters.
think of the possibilities

[AlanC9]

However, when watching the newest twitch gameplay demo, I found myself pondering on how much it limits the party composition. One thing I quite enjoyed in DA2 was that even at the harder difficulties, you could manage with very different party compositions, as long as you kept a constant eye on the battles, and thus ended up constantly changing the party I was using. In DAI, at least based on all the discussions and demos I've seen so far, the need for a party composition seems to a bit more rigid, thanks to a large part due to the non-regenerating health and the effort to avoid damage to all degrees, which in turn seems to require a certain roles being filled. It just, to me, seems to limit the kind of character combinations one might want to try, especially for larger missions, instead just sticking to the characters you use all the time.

I don't really follow the argument here. DAO was designed around the different roles, but you could ignore that at the cost of a little more difficulty. (Let's not get into the fact that you were better off with a 3-mage 1-rogue party, since I don't think Bio intended that this would work better than a balanced party.) DA2 was even more focused on having different classes since now you had CCC to plan for. Nothing unusual about that; most party-based systems play better if you cover all the bases. D&D was specifically designed to be played this way, and many other systems have followed suit over the decades.

How will DAI be any different from those other games, again?

[Commander Rpg]

People really should play Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale series, where healing magic is scarce at low levels and gets decent at higher levels, and there's no regeneration at all.

[In Exile]

People really should play Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale series, where healing magic is scarce at low levels and gets decent at higher levels, and there's no regeneration at all.

Healing isn't scarce. Combat healing is scare. That's a big difference.

[Commander Rpg]

Healing isn't scarce. Combat healing is scare. That's a big difference.

I'm fresh from a game session in BG. Potions, while at first levels, cost a lot and they're not infinite. Sure you can rest at inns, but overall, the majority of the time (which is dungeoning) you get constant issues with the healing stuff.

[AlanC9]

I found that it was easy enough to go ahead and rest, unless you were really burned out.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I dont see why people are concerned about no healing/regen.

The new combat system is balanced around them not being available.

It really is that simple
 

[In Exile]

I'm fresh from a game session in BG. Potions, while at first levels, cost a lot and they're not infinite. Sure you can rest at inns, but overall, the majority of the time (which is dungeoning) you get constant issues with the healing stuff.

After your first cleric or a high reputation bhaalspawn power you can just rest to full health.

[Hiemoth]

I don't really follow the argument here. DAO was designed around the different roles, but you could ignore that at the cost of a little more difficulty. (Let's not get into the fact that you were better off with a 3-mage 1-rogue party, since I don't think Bio intended that this would work better than a balanced party.) DA2 was even more focused on having different classes since now you had CCC to plan for. Nothing unusual about that; most party-based systems play better if you cover all the bases. D&D was specifically designed to be played this way, and many other systems have followed suit over the decades.

How will DAI be any different from those other games, again?

 

Well, for the last question, because it doesn't have health regeneration, which limits how much damage you can take during one fight. So let's say in DA2 I want to go with a party of two rogues, a two-handed warrior, who is not built to be a tank, and a mage focused on damage, even though it isn't the ideal party build, you can handle most fights with it even at higher difficulties as there is no penalty on taking damage in a single fight as you recover health between fights. However, if there is no health regeneration, then each party has to be planned accordingly. So for instance, based on what little we have seen so far, the build I just described would be kind of ineffective as it seems to push to having that tank in the group to handle the taunting and temporary damage protection that gives and the mages to give you the barrier.

 

I have no doubt that they have not taken a completely different approach to combat here and the combat has been adjusted to suit this new approach, but to me it does seem to push to having a very classical composition in the party, that you need that tank and you need that mage, not to heal but to put barriers, and thus it limits the mish-mashing of different party composition. Of course the game experience itself can be different, after all a limited amount of us have actually played the game, I am simply concerned of it as in DA2 I had a blast in trying out different party compositions.

[boissiere]

This is a game about strategy. Any composition can work IF you are willing to adapt your strategy. 4 mages, which is possible!!!, will fight differently than 2 rogues and 2 warriors.
Anyone who claims that something iss required is not willing to think outside the box.
If it's harder, but you're having fun, cool!
If it makes easier and you're having fun, go for it!

If you saw the twitch stream, you saw that warriors can build Guard, they have stonewall/shieldwalll so they don't need mages.
Traps are an option. All rouges can trap an area to high hell, strike from the distance and all vanish in stealth. Enemies can get lost in your mine field and disintegrate.
4 warriors can take turns building guard and taunting and using stone/shield wall; immortality, while hammering away.

With deemphesized healing, you are not forced to have a dedicated healer, with 0 other skills lol, and instead will have 4 characters with something to contribute, not 3 characters.
think of the possibilities

 

You know, I often use one healer in the DA series but never for only healing because it was a waste of time for him or her. Generally, my healer was an aoe monster first! I never expected him to do healing over time... His healing options were there only in long battles or in emergency times. For example, in DA II, when you wanted to heal with Anders, you had two choices. If you could only use the "normal" heal, it was ok and that's it. However, for some times, it was impossible to do so. You needed more than that like heal for everyone or ressurect. So you needed his special branch of abilities and then the heal... It was pretty long in game and you can only do that during the heal. It was rarely effective but you may have to do that sometimes when your party needed it.

Now you do no longer have a healer. That means, you will have to prepare your fights and the gear to set up the fights. A scout as I often did when I didn't know the game in DAO and awakening was a really good option. I hope that, depending on your choice, the ennemies can be there or not or in different positions. That will put some interesting feature in the souting rogue. And building scouting abilities for rogues could be extremely usefull for a team.

[Gtdef]

Not having health regeneration means that the need for meatshields go down and the need for cc, immunities and burst goes up. If all 3 classes have abilities that are agreeable with the new mechanics then there are a lot of options for composition.

 

The optimization process will be exactly the same it was in DA2. Bringing the class and the spec that offers the most in terms of assets. You want to deal with swarms of lesser enemies? Either be a force mage or bring a rogue. You want heavy aoe damage? Bring mages with firestorm and walking bomb, stack fire runes for your warrior. You want 1 stagger for a single cross class ability? Spec shield bash. You want multiple staggers? Spec cleave. And so on.

 

It doesn't depend on the mechanics and vague class descriptions but how the classes interact with those mechanics. Pretty much the reason people still haven't figured out DA2 combat yet. Someone may think that he wants to bring less rogues and more warriors cause he wants a sturdier party, but 2 rogues with fatiguing fogs make the party unkillable against swarms. Or he may think that he needs a meatshield that sets up his combos for his aoe nuker mage playthrough, but force mage has enough control that can perform the function by himself.

[Panda]

BW has probaply changed the fight system in way that you don't need much health regen (lower difficulties still have some I believe), potion limitations and no healing spells. It sounds difficulty but they have trying to assure us that easy is still easy so I don't think hardness of battles is the issue when playing the game, just change the difficulty in level you find best for you.

[AlanC9]

Well, for the last question, because it doesn't have health regeneration, which limits how much damage you can take during one fight. So let's say in DA2 I want to go with a party of two rogues, a two-handed warrior, who is not built to be a tank, and a mage focused on damage, even though it isn't the ideal party build, you can handle most fights with it even at higher difficulties as there is no penalty on taking damage in a single fight as you recover health between fights. However, if there is no health regeneration, then each party has to be planned accordingly. So for instance, based on what little we have seen so far, the build I just described would be kind of ineffective as it seems to push to having that tank in the group to handle the taunting and temporary damage protection that gives and the mages to give you the barrier.

Sure, an all-offense few-mages party build will take more damage than other setups would. Whether that's enough damage to cause you to lose is another matter. Unless the game is set up so that only an optimized party can get through a mission -- which strikes me as highly unlikely -- a suboptimal party build will just mean that you take more damage but win anyway, assuming you execute well in the individual combats. If you don't execute well you'll lose, but that's as it should be. Playing a non-optimal party build has to be difficult if we want builds to matter.

The main difference is different fail states. In DA2 you're OK if one party member is up when the last enemy falls. This might not be true in DAI, since a win where you've burned out your party's health might not be a win at all.
 

I have no doubt that they have not taken a completely different approach to combat here and the combat has been adjusted to suit this new approach, but to me it does seem to push to having a very classical composition in the party, that you need that tank and you need that mage, not to heal but to put barriers, and thus it limits the mish-mashing of different party composition. Of course the game experience itself can be different, after all a limited amount of us have actually played the game, I am simply concerned of it as in DA2 I had a blast in trying out different party compositions.

Again, it's nothing new for a game to favor certain party builds over other party builds.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I believe this will cause players to think more carefully in who they're going to bring with them. Talking with people who have played nightmare difficulty on both DA:O and DA2, I found a lot of them would run with all casters most of the time leaving warriors and duel wielding rogues alone. I found myself doing this alot also, it was simpler in  a way. I like what BW is trying to do because it may cause me and others to actually give warriors and duel wielding rogues more time in the party. But I don't know, that's just my two cents

Im a mostly nightmare player from DA:O and DA:2 and the problem with healing on NM was exactly this. Some party members were almost mandatory.  

 

The new mechanic will IMO open more up to "Who do you WANT in your party?" not "Who do I HAVE to have in my party?" 

 

[b10d1v]

This is the first topic ever here, so my apologies in advance if it ends up being a little bit messy in explanation. I also deeply hope there isn't already a thread on this topic, although I couldn't find any when checking.

 

I am largely really hyped for the coming DAI game and, as a fan of both DAO and DA2, find myself satisfied with most of the approaches they have been hyping for the game. There are two things, though, that have been giving me slight hesitations over personal enjoyment of the game. One is the increased focus on the crafting system, as I personally always get more of a kick of finding an epic weapon or a piece of armor instead of finding materials to craft a piece of armor that can be replicated. Just a personal preference.

 

 However, the thing I am more concerned of is the lack of health generation, as I have found that component to always be a big drag and just lead to backtracking. It isn't anything new, though, and I have been adjusting to the thought. However, when watching the newest twitch gameplay demo, I found myself pondering on how much it limits the party composition. One thing I quite enjoyed in DA2 was that even at the harder difficulties, you could manage with very different party compositions, as long as you kept a constant eye on the battles, and thus ended up constantly changing the party I was using. In DAI, at least based on all the discussions and demos I've seen so far, the need for a party composition seems to a bit more rigid, thanks to a large part due to the non-regenerating health and the effort to avoid damage to all degrees, which in turn seems to require a certain roles being filled. It just, to me, seems to limit the kind of character combinations one might want to try, especially for larger missions, instead just sticking to the characters you use all the time.

 

 This is, of course, a simple concern at the time as it impossible to say anything concrete before playing the game. It is just the one time that continues to gnaw at me as I watch the gameplay demos. It doesn't help that in both examples in the Twitch fights, most party members took a lot of damage already in the initial fights at the normal difficulty levels.

I was concerned about your topic enough to open an old save and test if healing was overpowered.  Even a modded game version spamming is not possible w/o popping lyrium potions, so I agree with you that health should regenerate slowly and a bit faster with food and potions.  However, in battle you can't spam w/o potions so limit how many you can take instead of dropping the creation spell line or speciality - why call it dragon age if you rip apart the spells?