99 réponses à ce sujet

[Doominike]

Ya ofc. In DAO there's only Alistair who's really plot important and he's the only one you can't just tell to leave or not take along at all. Presumably in DAI we'll have to keep Cassandra and probably the advisors at least. And if you really don't like some of those you can always simply ignore them

[Ceoldoren]

Ya ofc. In DAO there's only Alistair who's really plot important and he's the only one you can't just tell to leave or not take along at all. Presumably in DAI we'll have to keep Cassandra and probably the advisors at least. And if you really don't like some of those you can always simply ignore them

Ignore them or be a complete dick, which is what I did with Alistair on a couple of evil runs, then I let him get executed...good times.

[Allan Schumacher]

Did you forget to install the latest update again?

 

Also, not showing and not tracking a relationship stat are 2 different things. I have strong feeling that relationship is going to be tracked in the exact same way as it was in prior games, the only difference is you aren't going to get to see it change in DA:I, making it immeasurably worse.

 

In real life we use body language and pheromones to tell how someone feels about us, and if they don't like us we can try talking to them again to change their opinion. In a video game you have no body language and only one shot. Unless you save and reload. Without a meter you are going to need to reload from even further behind than you would with a meter. That or this will force you to use a guide to make sure that every conversation is perfect so you don't get screwed over.

 

You definitely do see a change, just not in the form of the bar.  For example, if you go and talk to Cassandra every time you return to Skyhold, her very first line (which is typically "the same" as they tend to be in video game land) will be different, and possibly even include different tones of voice and body language.

 

Further, you aren't only given "one shot" in that it's possible to get "disapproval" on one line, but that doesn't condemn your playthrough nor block any options away from you.  It's still possible to gain approval as you learn the types of things the characters respect.

 

The idea that every conversation needs to be "perfect" to prevent you from being screwed over isn't true.  Besides, the lack of the approval meter doesn't prevent you from doing this, because if you absolutely must not take any disapproval from the character ever, you're still given that feedback.

[In Exile]

You definitely do see a change, just not in the form of the bar.  For example, if you go and talk to Cassandra every time you return to Skyhold, her very first line (which is typically "the same" as they tend to be in video game land) will be different, and possibly even include different tones of voice and body language.

 

Further, you aren't only given "one shot" in that it's possible to get "disapproval" on one line, but that doesn't condemn your playthrough nor block any options away from you.  It's still possible to gain approval as you learn the types of things the characters respect.

 

The idea that every conversation needs to be "perfect" to prevent you from being screwed over isn't true.  Besides, the lack of the approval meter doesn't prevent you from doing this, because if you absolutely must not take any disapproval from the character ever, you're still given that feedback.

When you say still given that feedback, do you mean the body-language/dialogue feedback you mentioned above, or something numerical like "+1, the IB approves"?

[Reznore57]

When you say still given that feedback, do you mean the body-language/dialogue feedback you mentioned above, or something numerical like "+1, the IB approves"?

 

I'm not sure what Allan is talking about , but you get a message when companions approve or disapprove about something.

From a video , when you kill a Behemoth , you can see something like : you get a bit of approval with Varric.

So there won't be numbers but it seems like you get basic informations.

[In Exile]

I'm not sure what Allan is talking about , but you get a message when companions approve or disapprove about something.

From a video , when you kill a Behemoth , you can see something like : you get a bit of approval with Varric.

So there won't be numbers but it seems like you get basic informations.

 

So hypothetically, I could just keep a running tally? 

[Wulfram]

 

Further, you aren't only given "one shot" in that it's possible to get "disapproval" on one line, but that doesn't condemn your playthrough nor block any options away from you.  It's still possible to gain approval as you learn the types of things the characters respect.

 

The idea that every conversation needs to be "perfect" to prevent you from being screwed over isn't true.  Besides, the lack of the approval meter doesn't prevent you from doing this, because if you absolutely must not take any disapproval from the character ever, you're still given that feedback.

 

It's one shot in that there are a strictly limited number of opportunities to get a pass mark, and no ways to get extra credit.  You can't apologise, you can't clarify, you can't buy them chocolates.

 

You're right that's usually a reasonable amount of latitude, but the issue comes when you've got some disapproval that is unavoidable without compromising your vision for the PC.  Then you can find yourself teetering on the edge and need to watch the situation carefully.

[Allan Schumacher]

When you say still given that feedback, do you mean the body-language/dialogue feedback you mentioned above, or something numerical like "+1, the IB approves"?

 

There are still messages that pop up saying "<Character> Approves."

[Allan Schumacher]

You're right that's usually a reasonable amount of latitude, but the issue comes when you've got some disapproval that is unavoidable without compromising your vision for the PC.  Then you can find yourself teetering on the edge and need to watch the situation carefully.

 

I guess we can be free to disagree on this, but this is the type of thing that I consider "interesting choice" when playing a game.  Do I stick to the principles of my PC knowing that my actions have been angering a companion (who has reactions I'm evidently concerned about).

[In Exile]

There are still messages that pop up saying "<Character> Approves."

Ah, so it doesn't attach a value to it? But hypothetically we could keep a tally of moments of approval and disapproval?

[Doominike]

Off topic bit, does "technical quality assurance analyst" really just mean tester ?

[Reznore57]

So hypothetically, I could just keep a running tally? 

 

Well not really...with the approve/disapprove message , you get to know what topics you need to be careful about.

It was never tracked down in DAO/DA2 , it's something we always had to figure out by ourselves.

Just this time you don't get numbers .(but it seems the message says if they approve only a little or a lot?At least it seems to be the case with the Varric message I saw .)

 

And I suppose we'll be able to guess where the relationship is going when we talk with them.

[Pen-N-Paper]

 

You definitely do see a change, just not in the form of the bar.

If the discussion were about a combat mechanic, there would be a supporting video in evidence. There is none.

I definitely will see a change if I am preconditioned to see it, e.g. Oh, that must be the mechanic and not a bug. How about we get walked through of one decision branch in this deep RPG tree to show the depth of the role-play mechanic? The purpose is to reveal the complexity or, conversely, showcase the simple binary mechanic of how player agency shapes the game.

Take, for example, the relationship with a DLC character. Go from the initial meeting until the first major point of no return. Show the scenes in order resulting in a consequence. Let us see the relationship develop. In DA:O mechanical terms, show how the relationship interaction develops one plot skill for instance but doing so only within the context of player dialogue rather than gifts. Or, in the Landsmeet, show how player agency influences one character to support the Warden during the final confrontation with Loghain.

I would not term these spoilers strictly speaking. They are only one branch of an overall statistical tree. Knowing how to influence one supporter at the Landsmeet does not mean the decisions made along the path to get that support won't hurt the player in another decision crossroads. It does demonstrate available role-playing depth. I hope I am being clear.

I am seeing way too much evidence that this game is heavily weighted for a specific graphics and combat audience and hearing promises about role-playing that are not backed up with any demonstrated evidence or substance. In fact, repeatedly saying trust me the mechanic works and we have removed all objective evidence of it from player view to make it more "realistic" actually suggests to me the opposite: that the mechanic is 1) so simple as to be an embarrassment to reveal and/or 2) the mechanic is not there. Those would be my words.

Prove me wrong, please.

ps. Also let's remember that compromises happen in the work environment all the time that we do not attribute to our principles (or lack of). As leader of a team, some give and take is necessary. The Inquisitor is, in the context of role-play, in a work environment leading an ad hoc team on a mission. Not clearly knowing when a decision to be made will threaten the integrity of the team hamstrings the role-play of leadership. It could lead to the death of one or more team members and/or the success or failure of the mission.

[Doominike]

I think someone said (David Gaider iirc) that there wouldn't be a DLC character

[Pen-N-Paper]

 

I think someone said (David Gaider iirc) that there wouldn't be a DLC character

 That is off topic.

[Doominike]

You mentioned making the exemple with a DLC character, was just saying

[Pen-N-Paper]

 

You mentioned making the exemple with a DLC character, was just saying

Well, if I knew a true example in DA: I of what I am asking for evidence of, I would not be asking for an example. I would have it. As it is, I used DA: O.

But I hope technicalities do not disqualify by question. No one likes a rules lawyer. I hope someone more knowledgeable with the DA:I game than I will answer using the guidelines of my example.

[Doominike]

No it doesn't, I get why you're asking

[karushna5]

My issue is less where we are and more... ending point? In DA2 it was really important to get them 100% but sometimes, not knowing how far you are means it is hard to know when to stop. 5 Varric approves could be say 25 points, but 1 varric greatly disapproves could be 50. Easy to assume my 5 approves would make up for 1 greatly disaproves, but they didn't. the hardest for me, is more going from we are friends to we are best friends. I can be well, Sera is friendly and flirting, and I have gotten a lot of approves, must be good, then find out, we were in the early stages and I shouldnt have tried to bring the others along when I needed to get her up a bit more.

 

I have less of an issue of knowing where I am at, so much as when I reach maximum. Maybe a little blurb? Or at the least, saying how many stages of friendship/romance "levels" there are so we can keep track. Like in DA:O, They hated you, they kinda disliked you, were ambivalent, liked you, best friends/love Just knowing how many change in temperments there are can help us keep track of how far to go.

Especially if their stories are at all like DA2 where the difference to good buds/in love and best friends/soulmates was you having no choice but to kill them.

[9TailsFox]

My issue is less where we are and more... ending point? In DA2 it was really important to get them 100% but sometimes, not knowing how far you are means it is hard to know when to stop. 5 Varric approves could be say 25 points, but 1 varric greatly disapproves could be 50. Easy to assume my 5 approves would make up for 1 greatly disaproves, but they didn't. the hardest for me, is more going from we are friends to we are best friends. I can be well, Sera is friendly and flirting, and I have gotten a lot of approves, must be good, then find out, we were in the early stages and I shouldnt have tried to bring the others along when I needed to get her up a bit more.

 

I have less of an issue of knowing where I am at, so much as when I reach maximum. Maybe a little blurb? Or at the least, saying how many stages of friendship/romance "levels" there are so we can keep track. Like in DA:O, They hated you, they kinda disliked you, were ambivalent, liked you, best friends/love Just knowing how many change in temperments there are can help us keep track of how far to go.

Especially if their stories are at all like DA2 where the difference to good buds/in love and best friends/soulmates was you having no choice but to kill them.

[taviastrife]

There are still messages that pop up saying "<Character> Approves."

Oh, so it's similar to the influence system in the KOTOR games?  A message would pop up saying such and such character has lost or gained influence, no numerical value assigned.  At least, that's what I'm getting from your description.

[Allan Schumacher]

Oh, so it's similar to the influence system in the KOTOR games?  A message would pop up saying such and such character has lost or gained influence, no numerical value assigned.  At least, that's what I'm getting from your description.

 

KOTOR 2 did have that and it's a fair enough response.  The only difference being that we've also added qualifiers.  Slight/Greatly (or none).  They aren't all precisely the same "Two different 'Solas approves' doesn't mean the same level of improvement"

 

 

 

 

Prove me wrong, please.

 

You want me to show you a video of text saying "Solas approves?"

 

Or of Cassandra having a different introduction?

 

Because it seems like you're saying to me "If the bar was still there, I'd be satisfied."  Even if the bar didn't actually mean anything.

[Pen-N-Paper]

You want me to show you a video of text saying "Solas approves?"

Or of Cassandra having a different introduction?

Because it seems like you're saying to me "If the bar was still there, I'd be satisfied." Even if the bar didn't actually mean anything.

=========================



No. And it bothers me that this "meh" is the depth of interaction you do perceive the game's player agency to hold within the relationship mechanics of the game: amounting to A) fetch quests or B ) romances and C) neither. That's a pretty shallow tree for a 100+ hours role-playing game storyline, IMHO. Were you one of the leads, speaking on behalf of the game, making such a statement it would certainly reveal to me that this is not a role-playing game.

Read again, please.





==========================
 

How about we get walked through of one decision branch in this deep RPG tree to show the depth of the role-play mechanic? The purpose is to reveal the complexity or, conversely, showcase the simple binary mechanic of how player agency shapes the game.

Take, for example, the relationship with a DLC character. Go from the initial meeting until the first major point of no return. Show the scenes in order resulting in a consequence. Let us see the relationship develop. In DA:O mechanical terms, show how the relationship interaction develops one plot skill for instance but doing so only within the context of player dialogue rather than gifts. Or, in the Landsmeet, show how player agency influences one character to support the Warden during the final confrontation with Loghain.

I would not term these spoilers strictly speaking. They are only one branch of an overall statistical tree. Knowing how to influence one supporter at the Landsmeet does not mean the decisions made along the path to get that support won't hurt the player in another decision crossroads. It does demonstrate available role-playing depth. I hope I am being clear.

===========================


The way combat mechanics are demonstrated is this: Here you see the area and Boss X. You see, this is how you use the game mechanics to defeat Boss X. You watch your party members and listen to commentary about how they optimize their interaction to defeat Boss X. You learn about how the mechanic and the equipment can be optimized, by its proud showcasing, to defeat Boss X. (There are several Boss Xes different in each video - that's alot of hours spent showing combat game mechanics.)You watch a tour of a specifically identified open area in a demonstration of graphics and sandbox-style journey. I would not, strictly speaking, term these spoilers either (though some might, but then you have nothing to demonstrate to anyone, which is lame). This kind of mechanics tourism is what I am asking/suggesting to be demonstrated along one decision path from a game that promises to deliver many such paths for player agency to affect story. I am looking for much more than a "Meh" (or a Shale Approves! +5) from a demonstration of such an interaction from one cause to finished result. This is a mechanic the game markets itself to include; yet I have not seen it demonstrated.

[taviastrife]

KOTOR 2 did have that and it's a fair enough response.  The only difference being that we've also added qualifiers.  Slight/Greatly (or none).  They aren't all precisely the same "Two different 'Solas approves' doesn't mean the same level of improvement"

Okay.  That doesn't sound too bad, actually; I liked that system.  Being able to see modifiers will assist in differentiating what the character likes/loves, can tolerate, and what's off the table in terms of the Inqusitor's actions.  And if the characters greet and treat you differently, there will be plenty of feedback of where you stand with them.

 

Thank you for the reply!

[karushna5]

KOTOR 2 did have that and it's a fair enough response.  The only difference being that we've also added qualifiers.  Slight/Greatly (or none).  They aren't all precisely the same "Two different 'Solas approves' doesn't mean the same level of improvement"

 

Nice to know there are "slights" as well as "greatlys" I think that will help a lot. I hope we don't seem too overcritical. Just the complex romance/friend flags have gotten us before, we get paranoid at times and tension for the game can make everything worse.