Sure one could do that, by all means. But in the process it would render the Lore and the setting pointless.
Not for me, I make up my mind about stuff that doesn't fit. I also ignore stuff I don't like. "Take the Best - Ignore the Rest".
"Lore" just usually goes with the storytelling - not with gameplay. Sure, the heat sink clips in Mass Effect 2 were a rather puzzling change, but in the end I got a Lancer to play with. And the change didn't really affect the story. Just the gameplay.
I know how turnbased combat works, and it also works and fits in flawlessly in tabletop RPGs, where every player acts within the same three/six/whatever-second span. But it doesn't work in PC games, and specifically HOMM, where it could take almost 6 seconds for a single zombie to move it's full move, while my characters are just standing around ,doing idle animations. That kind of takes me out of it.
As for your second part, I would undoubtedly consider it a good idea. That stuff would be hilarious.. I would also consider it utterly stupid as high technoloy doesn't exist in DA, but mages who can't heal do.
In HOMM you control armies, though. armies won't move unless commanded to do so. HOMM is more of a boardgame, anyway. With some rpg elements thrown in.
In HOMM you control armies, though. armies won't move unless commanded to do so. HOMM is more of a boardgame, anyway. With some rpg elements thrown in.
Oh, right. You said Might and Magic, not Heroes. Sorry, I actually misread that part, my bad.
Not for me, I make up my mind about stuff that doesn't fit. I also ignore stuff I don't like. "Take the Best - Ignore the Rest".
"Lore" just usually goes with the storytelling - not with gameplay. Sure, the heat sink clips in Mass Effect 2 were a rather puzzling change, but in the end I got a Lancer to play with. And the change didn't really affect the story. Just the gameplay.
Quite right. It has to do with the way it is broken, really. If the game tells out that you can't teleport with magic. Its not possible. And then the game, in the next 5 mins, shows you mages teleporting about, it becomes rather...glaring. And in that case, the Lore goes with the gameplay as well.
Oh, right. You said Might and Magic, not Heroes. Sorry, I actually misread that part, my bad.
I understood your point just fine. I confuse those series too.
I don't think the gameplay is being smartly designed
artificially restricting our options in combat and gutting healing just seems to me like its going to make the game frustrating. A lot of backtracking to Skyhold and other camps to replenish supplies and such.
No auto-heal and no healing spell particularly, can you imagine doing the Deep Roads or Haven having to backtrack so much?
The gameplay just seems like one misstep after another
again; people whine about change because they're so stuck in what they're used to. it's a positive change barriers are more effective and give more of an advantadge over pure heals.
Totally agree. This is pretty lame, I've been looking forward to this game for 2 years, ever since they said they took notes from "Skyrim" and the whole inclusion of bringing back multiple race protaganists.
Every announcement since then has just made me so excited for the game. It was doing EVERYTHING right.
Up until the lacking 8 ability slots controversy, I'd say everything was going perfectly.
Now this whole gimped synthetic layer of difficulty in regards to no healing spells.
My hype has literally went down an astronomical amount. They say these decisions that are currently pi*sing us gamers off are intended to provoke a more strategic, tactical adventure, but all it'll really end up doing is limit us in our combat choices.
Those 8 hotkeys just went down to 6 for Mages. Considering it'll be essential to bring the focus healing spell and barrier ALWAYS on the tougher difficulty settings.
I don't want to play casual, or even normal. I am not the type of gamer who does that, I'm pretty seasoned if I do say so myself. 18 years of RPG gaming experience. Never before have I seen this, and I've played plenty of difficult RPGs. The difference between them and DA:I, it seems, is they had a legitimate challenge, while the challenge here is our limitations. I'm fine if the game proposes a real challenge, but not when a game is challenging because of stupid rules.
Still going to get the game. Pre-order in tact. Still probably going to do all 11 of my planned playthroughs. Just really disappointed in these design plans. Talk about neutering the player.
Yeah? So there weren't multiple threads created about how much people hate the 8 ability slot restriction? Or how there are 24 pages in this thread with more than half of the participants saying it's stupid to have no healing spells?
And check the video I posted above. There's proof that focus spells are mappable, unless they changed that since the E3 demo.
and we werent restricted in da:o and da2 to take certain skills in the first 10 levels of playing because they were the most effective and must have spells. (like heal?) and that limited our limited amount of skill points to an even smaller... limit??? and because of resources and such werent we 'forced' to upgrade certain talents to make them more effective as to not run out of resources and because of cross class combo's? thus having a limited amount of skills for the majority of the game ?
going for the most effective route always provide's limitations, the only thing they do now is that it makes it impossible for people to have 12 skills they regularely use (which was pretty ineffective in da2 up untill the end of the game.) beside having 12 skills in da2 would be more effective then compared to DA:I because skills dont have cooldowns if i'm not mistaken. thus maxing out skills is a more effective route. so there's no need to rotate between aoe's for example like i did at higher levels in DA2 because they had long cd's. and didn't certain on-use skills (in da2) became passive in da:i ?
wouldn't surprise me if i had trouble filling up the bar for quite some time.
ElementalFury is right. That seriously reduces the Aumont of spells and talents you can use.
yes it does, but it doesnt matter.
They said months ago there were limited potions and no heals. I guess it's only now people are paying attention.
i think it's just that people need something new to whine about. ''back in the old days, live was so much easier and better. we didnt have basic healthcare. social security or other facilities.... but... it was like... definately easier and better. rabble rabble rabble''
I believe the 8 abilities can be switched out at any time out of combat.
yes they said it can.
I agree, but this seems like we are in for a lot of walking back and forth for healing and potions, especially if you aren't the best at DA combat
so? become better! it aint no rocket science.
Maybe, maybe not. These "camps" are probably going to be more numerous than people are thinking right now (especially given Allan's comment).
thing is, in da2 nightmare i barely used potions at all. i see it happening again in da:i.
and again to everyone; if i had to choose between barrier or a heal i'd choose barrier, always. like i've explained in a previous post it gives much more of an advantadge.
D&D is pretty broken, yes. But I meant most crpgs. Fallout, Might and Magic, Krondor, Ultima (to some degree), Drakensang, The Elder Scrolls. All of these have gameplay that fits the lore very very well.
Not really. They all run into the same problem with XP. Except TES which has a time and scale problem in that within a year you can apparently acquire the sum total of human knowledge.
Id chart that up as a bug, or a blooper. Rather than a deliberate act. The timeframe is relative anyway, since the games skip ahead in time after each title. You can leave Dragon Age 2 running on a PC for 5 years too, and Hawke will have been standing in the street for 5 years in chapter 1, wich doesn't span 5 years.
Quite right. It has to do with the way it is broken, really. If the game tells out that you can't teleport with magic. Its not possible. And then the game, in the next 5 mins, shows you mages teleporting about, it becomes rather...glaring. And in that case, the Lore goes with the gameplay as well.
If I can't make up my mind about it, I fear I go with ignoring the thing entirely. I see, there is a line that might get crossed.
Sure one could do that, by all means. But in the process it would render the Lore and the setting pointless.
Lore is really just a framework for what is possible in the game world. It is not Lore that all mages have the capability to cast healing spells. It is Lore that some mages are capable of doing so. In DA2, Anders couldn’t learn Entropy spells, Bethany couldn’t learn Primal and Merrill couldn’t learn Creation.
It is also the case that in DA:O access to some magic spells require pre-requisite knowledge that was not required in DA2. Example, to learn Haste in DA:O Mages had to learn Heroic Offence, Heroic Aura and Heroic Defence. In DA2 my mages had to learn Heal and Heroic Aura. From a Lore perspective, why the difference? Seems clear to me that Mage capability is not uniform, nor is the path to acquiring and using magic.
In DA:I it seems that our mages do not have affinity for the same spells as other mages in other parts of Thedas at other times – this is well established and has precedent in Lore. It has also been well established that Creation is one of the hardest schools of magic to wield. I honestly cannot see reason why limited access to healing magic by any of the potentially four mages in our party is Lore breaking per se.
I completely accept that you may not like the gameplay design choice, but that’s not the same argument that the choice breaks lore - it really doesn't, anymore than my DA2 mages being unable to cast Stinging Swarm, Animate Dead, Spell Wisp or Mass Paralysis.
To be fair, I'm not seeing a lot of difference between spamming heals and spamming Barrier...
i do; barrier is more effective. not only can you survive a bigger hit (its basicly an extension of your healthbar) it also reduces your susceptability to spike damage and you have more time to react when **** hits the fan.
Lore is really just a framework for what is possible in the game world. It is not Lore that all mages have the capability to cast healing spells. It is Lore that some mages are capable of doing so. In DA2, Anders couldn’t learn Entropy spells, Bethany couldn’t learn Primal and Merrill couldn’t learn Creation.
It is also the case that in DA:O access to some magic spells require pre-requisite knowledge that was not required in DA2. Example, to learn Haste in DA:O Mages had to learn Heroic Offence, Heroic Aura and Heroic Defence. In DA2 my mages had to learn Heal and Heroic Aura. From a Lore perspective, why the difference? Seems clear to me that Mage capability is not uniform, nor is the path to acquiring and using magic.
In DA:I it seems that our mages do not have affinity for the same spells as other mages in other parts of Thedas at other times – this is well established and has precedent in Lore. It has also been well established that Creation is one of the hardest schools of magic to wield. I honestly cannot see reason why limited access to healing magic by any of the potentially four mages in our party is Lore breaking per se.
I completely accept that you may not like the gameplay design choice, but that’s not the same argument that the choice breaks lore - it really doesn't, anymore than my DA2 mages being unable to cast Stinging Swarm, Animate Dead, Spell Wisp or Mass Paralysis.
Fair points. I just feel it odd that when 90 percent of the mages in the previous games could cast the Heal spell, we are suddenly stuck with a 100 percent worth of mages who can't.
I'd just like to see an in-game explanation for it. Like the tears in the Fade affecting healing magic, or something like that.
Icy Magebane, on 01 Oct 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:
I don't think it takes a "master" to cast one spell from a particular school.... I think you're grasping at straws with this lore argument. It was a combat mechanics decision, unrelated to lore.
You might be able to caste Glyph, sure, but the human body is a complex thing, and using magic to heal it may not be as easy as you are thinking. Now did they do this strictly because of lore, most likely no, I just get annoyed when people assume something silly like "All mages have forgotten how to caste heal", especially since we have seen that not all mages can in fact caste that spell.
End of the day, nothing in the lore says that Heal is a basic spell. What we have seen is highly capable people in specific circumstances that can have access to that ability but that was as much a mechanic decision as is their current setup.
@Icy Magebane just like it doesnt really take a surgeon to remove an appendix. problem is, having an amateur do that really ups the chances of the patient 'kicking off' hell, the majority of the people whom end up dying from an appendicitis die because of botched appendectomies preformed by real surgeons.
@nohvarr agreed. although i do think they should never look at lore when making gameplay decisions (gameplay should be fun) i mean, imagine if GTA would look at real life. imagine you had to eat a couple of times a day in gta. or you would have a chance to die because your toe got shot off and a staph infection took hold which causes you to die of toxic shock. doesnt really sound like fun gameplay 
Fair points. I just feel it odd that when 90 percent of the mages in the previous games could cast the Heal spell, we are suddenly stuck with a 100 percent worth of mages who can't.
I'd just like to see an in-game explanation for it. Like the tears in the Fade affecting healing magic, or something like that.
Honestly I don't think we'll get one the more I think on it.
This entire change is 100% game design based and its likely that if this is a success that design choice may well carry over to future games rather than a return to healing based combat in DA4.
Assuming that the finale of DA:I sees a potential outcome of the INQ and chums closing the Rifts and saving the world, an explanation for the lack of healing by protags and chums based on the Rifts existance would (presumably) only be valid for this game only. Now they have written themselves into a corner. If they continue with this design choice, they have to find a new reason why mages have restriced healing powers.
If they say the Rift has permananently impacted the Creation magic school, then its difficult to go back to healing if the feedback from this change is overwhelmingly bad (which personally I wouldn't even consider listening to until people have actually played the game 
).
Much easier to just imply these mages don't have affinity for healing spells, other than a focus one which requires great effort but yields a group result and leave it at that. No narrative rabbit holes to dig yourself out of in future games.
Honestly I don't think we'll get one the more I think on it.
This entire change is 100% game design based and its likely that if this is a success that design choice may well carry over to future games rather than a return to healing based combat in DA4.
Assuming that the finale of DA:I sees a potential outcome of the INQ and chums closing the Rifts and saving the world, an explanation for the lack of healing by protags and chums based on the Rifts existance would (presumably) only be valid for this game only. Now they have written themselves into a corner. If they continue with this design choice, they have to find a new reason why mages have restriced healing powers.
If they say the Rift has permananently impacted the Creation magic school, then its difficult to go back to healing if the feedback from this change is overwhelmingly bad (which personally I wouldn't even consider listening to until people have actually played the game
Much easier to just imply these mages don't have affinity for healing spells, other than a focus one which requires great effort but yields a group result and leave it at that. No narrative rabbit holes to dig yourself out of in future games.
Could be solved with the healing magic not working while the Fade "problems" in DA:I is ongoing. Once the rifts are closed, the healing magic could or could not go back to normal. Anyway. Just an explanation that might fit.
Baldur's Gate 2 wasn't that bad with a very limited healing and overall resource management that's why I don't understand all the fuss. But bsn meltdown with hysterics is still very entertaining.
and totaly based on nothing aswell. if people only had some more knowledge on the pro's and cons of diff types of healing.
replace infinite health with infinite temp health... I am in awe of the massive innovation.
^^^this
and barriers always has had more pro's and less cons then normal heals.
DA: I doesn't have healing spells. But theres other ways to prevent and regen health instead, including Barrier and potions. I think people are too attached to having healing spells as a crutch.
Edit: I stand corrected. There is still group heal in the game but its a focus based ability. I imagine it will be competing with other powerful focus spells like haste. Still, its another option for healing.
WAIT!!! WAIT!!! there is a heal AND barrier spells?! i'll be facerolling through this then! was thinking of making my first playthrough as normal to casually get a grip of the story but i guess i can up the difficulty!
I never used healing in DA:O or in DA:II - tactics was buggy and I died more than I survived when I relied on a healer. Potions all the way, I have no problems with this.
Also, Mike has mentioned on twitter in the last few hours that the game is tailored to pretty much the issue of no healing spells. I'm not making any rash decision about gameplay when I haven't even touched the game yet.
Mass Effect1-3 used medigels and it was also limited to 8 I think (iirc) and I had no problems palying that game on nightmare mode.
Also, healing bombs were mentionned in the live feed on Monday and a group heal ability.
I don't really see the problem. If anything it just increases the number of viable party compositions and builds. We only have access to four characters and eight abilities at a time. If healing spells existed then having at least one mage with heal would be practically mandatory.
It also means we don't have to drag around a companion we don't like because they are the only healer... coughAnderscough
I don't really see the problem. If anything it just increases the number of viable party compositions and builds. We only have access to four characters and eight abilities at a time. If healing spells existed then having at least one mage with heal would be practically mandatory.
It also means we don't have to drag around a companion we don't like because they are the only healer... coughAnderscough
Agree 100%. Remove choice? No, increase choice. Have the magical support you want in the party rather than the party + healer.
I don't even recognize this series anymore...
All I've wanted for the last 5 years is a sequel to Dragon Age: Origins -- that's it, you can stop re-imagining the core concepts of the game...just give me another Archdemon to slay and I'm good.
I gave Bioware a pass on Dragon Age: II -- because hey, we all make mistakes, but now comes insult-to-injury in the form of Dragon Age: Inquisition; with all of these changes that only serve to give the illusion of difficulty...and I Just. Don't. Have. It. In. Me this time...
Maybe this is going too far, but I honestly feel like the removal of the Spirit Healer is a Bioware's way of giving a large middle-finger to me as an individual.
Like, Bioware is upset that I clown-stomped both of their games on Nightmare as a dedicated healer -- so they removed the entire class to show me whose boss.
You've shown me whose boss, alright -- you couldn't make a game that challenged good healers so you had to eliminate us from the series. I can't reward this design decision with a first-week purchase...but I'll hold my nose and get the game at some point in the future, hopefully by then, the PC modders would have corrected some of these mistakes.
no, but you can cast a spell to lower the enemies temp hp. because thats more tactical.
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