2061 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Halleluiah!

 

Perhaps there will be, my guess is that it'll just be in there for a cutscene or two.

 

In case you missed it, I never said the gampley mechanics was an issue. I just wanted an in-game explanation for a change of this magnitude

[Rawgrim]

That is not even close to what surgery does. Surgery can close wounds, it can remove physical obstructions or other types of tissue, and it's a way of introducing external objects into the body, but it doesn't mend tissue. I'm fact it's the opposite: generally people are. Ore physically vulnerable after surgery. That's why "contact football" is not a thing you are told to do after surgery.

 

Fair enough. Poor choice of word on my part. Its more like "stitching" the wounds via magic.

[Nohvarr]

Are you saying that the basic healing spell we get is way more advanced than the last tiers of the spellschools?

 

I'm saying the prevalence of healing in past games had less to do with the lore and the actual difficulty of using those spells in combat, and more to do with fulfilling peoples expectations of how healing works in a party RPG that was the successor to Baldur's Gate.

 

I just wanted an in-game explanation for a change of this magnitude

And they've already said healing is going to be addressed in the games narrative....so again, thread over?

[Icy Magebane]

And now you discover the assumptions you made based on gameplay mechanics (Which are fluid) may in-fact have been wrong.

None of this, nor any example from DA2, has convinced me that the Heal spell is difficult to learn.  They removed it from Merrill in DA2 for balancing purposes, and they severely limited it in DA:I for similar reasons.  DA:O was the first game in the series, thus they made no such considerations when planning out the mechanics... none of that indicates any lore reason for limitations on healing magic, nor does it indicate the level of difficulty in casting such a spell.

[TheEternalStudent]

None of this, nor any example from DA2, has convinced me that the Heal spell is difficult to learn.  They removed it from Merrill in DA2 for balancing purposes, and they severely limited it in DA:I for similar reasons.  DA:O was the first game in the series, thus they made no such considerations when planning out the mechanics... none of that indicates any lore reason for limitations on healing magic.

In several of the books it mentions healing still requires rest afterwards, and energy is still depleted. It's not Ubercharge from TF2.

[Rawgrim]

And now you discover the assumptions you made based on gameplay mechanics (Which are fluid) may in-fact have been wrong.

 

Isn't that what storytelling is about? "Show don't tell". Are you saying that we should ignore everything the games tell us, because they may be wrong? Kind of pointless to put things into a game or a story in the first place then. If I see 50 mages cast fireballs spells, then yes. I will assume that that spell is a common spell in Thedas.

[PhroXenGold]

None of this, nor any example from DA2, has convinced me that the Heal spell is difficult to learn.  They removed it from Merrill in DA2 for balancing purposes, and they severely limited it in DA:I for similar reasons.  DA:O was the first game in the series, thus they made no such considerations when planning out the mechanics... none of that indicates any lore reason for limitations on healing magic.

 

DA:O's ease of use of healing magic was for balance. So then you'll agree that it doesn't indicate any lore reason for being able to use healing magic like you could in that game, right?

[volkoff]

Bwahaha - I can imagine that feathers would be THE accessory item to avoid now. 

 

wouldn't surprise me if you cant keep chickens anymore unless they're plucked because of feathers having supposed ties to evil magic.

''sir, do you have unplucked chicken on you?''
''no, i dont have any chicken on me officer''
''so this feather isn't yours?''
''no sir,i...''
''may i see your bag sir?''
''well... i'm in kind of a hurry, you see... my wife an....''
''sir, is that a unplucked chicken in your bag?''

''well...no...i...''
''sir spread your legs and keep your hands where i can see them.''

''please sir, i have a wife and children to feed. i was only rubbing my face against unplucked chickens to wind down after a hard day's worth of labor!!! it's because they feel so fluffy!!! i cant help it sir, i'm an addict!!! it just feels so good! please dont lock me up, pleeaaasseee!!!''

[In Exile]

Fair enough. Poor choice of word on my part. Its more like "stitching" the wounds via magic.

The problem with this is that something that does this is the secret of immortality. Just spontaneously healing tissue and restoring it is world shattering. Lore and rule sets that avert to this solve the problem by saying that healing speeds up the body's own healing process.

The thing is that in the lore healing we see mages do - like anders - is medicinal. He cures sickness. He apparently can cure STDs. That's very different. And would suggest a world where - at least for the elites who have access to magic - they aren't subject to disease. But the world doesn't really play that out right.

[Rawgrim]

I'm saying the prevalence of healing in past games had less to do with the lore and the actual difficulty of using those spells in combat, and more to do with fulfilling peoples expectations of how healing works in a party RPG that was the successor to Baldur's Gate.

 

 

 

And they've already said healing is going to be addressed in the games narrative....so again, thread over?

 

If you want a coherent setting\world, it won't work if you go 180 on things between each chapter. If you explain the changes, in a belivable way, its all good. The world can change, of course.

 

He said healing would be adressed in the narrative. Not nessecarily the absence of the spell in the previous games.

 

If you don't want the thread to go on, you can solve it by not looking at it.

[Nohvarr]

None of this, nor any example from DA2, has convinced me that the Heal spell is difficult to learn.  They removed it from Merrill in DA2 for balancing purposes, and they severely limited it in DA:I for similar reasons.  DA:O was the first game in the series, thus they made no such considerations when planning out the mechanics... none of that indicates any lore reason for limitations on healing magic.

So if, by your own admission, gameplay balance trumped lore in limiting Merill's abilities it works the other way around as well. The presence of a heal in past games is not proof that it's an easy spell for a majority of mages to learn.

 

 

 

Isn't that what storytelling is about? "Show don't tell"

Which they did...that scene with Anders healing the boy shows it took him time to do, and it drained him considerably....and he has a fade spirit inside him boosting his power.

 

He said healing would be adressed in the narrative. Not nessecarily the absence of the spell in the previous games.

 

If you don't want the thread to go on, you can solve it by not looking at it.

 

You keep asking for them to address the issue in the games narrative and they've made a statement that something to that effect will happen. So why keep asking for it if you've already been told it will be dealt with? Are you expecting them to tell you the narrative reason right now?

[Icy Magebane]

DA:O's ease of use of healing magic was for balance. So then you'll agree that it doesn't indicate any lore reason for being able to use healing magic like you could in that game, right?

 

So if, by your own admission, gameplay balance trumped lore in limiting Merill's abilities it works the other way around as well. The presence of a heal in past games is not proof that it's an easy spell for a majority of mages to learn.

All I can say is that it doesn't prove or disprove the claim that Heal is an advanced spell.  It comes closer to disproving this theory, though... If it was an advanced spell and the devs wanted to reflect this in the game mechanics, they could have placed it at the end of the tree and had us rely on potions until we spent a "whopping" 4 points in Creation to learn it.  Based on what we were presented with, I'm going to have to conclude that either this never entered their minds or that it did enter their minds but they never considered Heal to be difficult to learn.  Either explanation works for me.

[TheEternalStudent]

If you want a coherent setting\world, it won't work if you go 180 on things between each chapter. If you explain the changes, in a belivable way, its all good. The world can change, of course.

 

He said healing would be adressed in the narrative. Not nessecarily the absence of the spell in the previous games.

 

If you don't want the thread to go on, you can solve it by not looking at it.

They're always trying to balance gameplay and narrative.
Alistiar says templars don't need lyrium, but they can use it. It's not needed for the specialization, nor can specialized characters use it.

Later Gaider says all templars require lyrium, and we encounter the ramifications of addiction more in story, but again, not in gameplay. Yes, gameplay should inform aspects of story, but if it doesn't than story trumps that. It's irritating, but true.

[Dasaed]

So... a demon invasion isn't a good time for mages to learn healing spells?  What are you trying to say, exactly?

Obviously not. Perhaps the gigantic rip in the Veil that is allowing the demons to invade has caused some magic to be unusable?

[Rawgrim]

The problem with this is that something that does this is the secret of immortality. Just spontaneously healing tissue and restoring it is world shattering. Lore and rule sets that avert to this solve the problem by saying that healing speeds up the body's own healing process.

The thing is that in the lore healing we see mages do - like anders - is medicinal. He cures sickness. He apparently can cure STDs. That's very different. And would suggest a world where - at least for the elites who have access to magic - they aren't subject to disease. But the world doesn't really play that out right.

 

Heals injured tissue, yes. It is described as knitting wounds together.

 

Doesn't mean he can cure every disease out there. But I am sure the STD curation would be a steady income. You have to take into account that Anders is rather unique given his alter ego, though. What he can heal is well outside the norm for mages.

[KoorahUK]

My mage in Origins was a student at the Circle Tower, and he knew how to cast that spell. You only get basic spells at early levels, because the mage is still inexperienced and a novice. Are you saying that the basic healing spell we get is way more advanced than the last tiers of the spellschools?

Ok, I asked this last time we were here but I think I missed the answer.

If it is your contention that Heal should be available to all mages because its a Ivl 1 spell, is it also Lore breaking that we were unable to learn Flame Blast, Spell wisp, Disorient and other LVL 1 spells in DA2 ?

Or is it just that those spells didn't fit into the game Bioware were Making?

[TheEternalStudent]

Heals injured tissue, yes. It is described as knitting wounds together.

 

Doesn't mean he can cure every disease out there. But I am sure the STD curation would be a steady income. You have to take into account that Anders is rather unique given his alter ego, though. What he can heal is well outside the norm for mages.

Do you have any evidence, gameplay or narrative to prove that? We never see Hawke cure disease, but there's never really the opportunity. Justice provides him extra power under certain circumstances, but I never got the feeling Anders was a super-medic.

[Icy Magebane]

Obviously not. Perhaps the gigantic rip in the Veil that is allowing the demons to invade has caused some magic to be unusable?

Or, the devs don't care that much about lore and their decision to limit healing magic is purely based on game mechanics...  it seems likely since they've given long explanations on the rationale behind this decision and not once have the mentioned lore...

[PhroXenGold]

Or, the devs don't care that much about lore and their decision to limit healing magic is purely based on game mechanics...  it seems likely since they've given long explanations on the rationale behind this decision and not once have the mentioned lore...

 

I suspect that is exactly the case. It's a gameplay thing. (and if there is some lore added, it's to explain a gameplay driven change). Thing is, I'm pretty that's also the reason why healing in DA:O was like it was despite being contrary to the lore...

[AClockworkMelon]

Sheesh, I am a gamer who enjoys a challenging experience but this is going to be particularly brutal on Nightmare. 

 

Lol.

[Rawgrim]

So if, by your own admission, gameplay balance trumped lore in limiting Merill's abilities it works the other way around as well. The presence of a heal in past games is not proof that it's an easy spell for a majority of mages to learn.

 

 

 

Which they did...that scene with Anders healing the boy shows it took him time to do, and it drained him considerably....and he has a fade spirit inside him boosting his power.

 

 

 

You keep asking for them to address the issue in the games narrative and they've made a statement that something to that effect will happen. So why keep asking for it if you've already been told it will be dealt with? Are you expecting them to tell you the narrative reason right now?

 

There are way more indications in the games towards that basic spell being an easy one, than one of epic proportions that only a genious can cast, yes.

 

For the fifth time. Read carefully now. Anders is a SPIRIT MAGE. He uses DIFFERENT spells than the one on topic. The one on topic is the BASIC healing spell from the Creation school. Anders uses Justice to heal the boy. He also says, in game, that Justice can drain him too. He gets drained by using the spirit magic. NOT the creation school spell.

 

I didn't ask anyone to pop into the thread and exlplain anything. Not the devs, and not you. I said I wanted and IN-GAME explanation for it. Is this forum part of the game? Naw. So if I get the explanation in here it wouldn't be in-game, would it?

 

And Alan's reply was vague. He only said healing would be adressed in the narrative. That is vague. I have no problems with it being vague either. It would be a spoiler if it wasn't. But his reply could mean that your fade ability healing thingy gets adressed (counts has healing too), or how healing grenades work, or how the potions work or are made.

[Dasaed]

Or, the devs don't care that much about lore and their decision to limit healing magic is purely based on game mechanics...  it seems likely since they've given long explanations on the rationale behind this decision and not once have the mentioned lore...

 

Devs not caring is the most likely answer.

[Icy Magebane]

I suspect that is exactly the case. It's a gameplay thing. (and if there is some lore added, it's to explain a gameplay driven change). Thing is, I'm pretty that's also the reason why healing in DA:O was like it was despite being contrary to the lore...

lol... no, see I disagree with that because they could just as easily have let us rely on potions and placed Heal at the end of the line rather than at the beginning.  The Heal spell was mainly useful for saving money on empty vials and could easily be rendered irrelevant as the game progressed.  It also cost mana, and lyrium potions were much more expensive than health potions... IMO Heal is just not that complicated.  I haven't really seen much to prove otherwise...

 

Devs not caring is the most likely answer.

Agreed.

[The Elder King]

Do you have any evidence, gameplay or narrative to prove that? We never see Hawke cure disease, but there's never really the opportunity. Justice provides him extra power under certain circumstances, but I never got the feeling Anders was a super-medic.

Anders is a Spirit healer. Those are generally the best Healers.

[Rawgrim]

Ok, I asked this last time we were here but I think I missed the answer.

If it is your contention that Heal should be available to all mages because its a Ivl 1 spell, is it also Lore breaking that we were unable to learn Flame Blast, Spell wisp, Disorient and other LVL 1 spells in DA2 ?

Or is it just that those spells didn't fit into the game Bioware were Making?

 

Given what is happening in Thedas during this game (that is the important part), a basic healing spell, wich we have seen in both games, would be needed. In general, it would make sense for mages to continue using these spells given the state of the world. And I said I hoped\wish we would get an in-game explanation for why they arn't being used by mages anymore.

 

The lore-breaking bit is actually others putting words in my mouth. I never said it was lore-breaking. I said it messed with the immersion.

 

I hope that reply clears things up. Sorry if I missed your question earlier.