65 réponses à ce sujet

[CapivaRasgor]

The title may be a little misleading, sorry if that's the case, I don't mean to cause a stir. But here it goes, on my time on the BSN, both when I was a non posting observer and in the short time I've actually started posting, I've noticed that the elves in DA, specially the Dalish, draw a good amount of dislike from some people (really trying to avoid the usage of the word hate).

 

Threads that deal with elven related topics, either by purpose or because the subject being discussed stumbles upon it, frequently derail on a discussion about who started the Dales war or people simply joking (or maybe hoping?) they can commit genocide on the Dalish clans. It's on these times that some people try to point that the lore is intentionally ambiguous regarding the events leading to the war.

 

Other common "elf basher" arguments usually involve Dalish racism and hostility towards humans and how they've forsaken ther city kin. In the former a common citation is the Dalish origin, where you and Tamlen can kill humans simply by being humans. While that is true, people also conviently forget that even if you spare those villagers the village will still gather a mob to drive the clan out, sucks to be merciful at these times no? Point here being: the Dalish have good reason to react with hostility when they meet humans(though I'm against going along with Tamlen's suggestion). And who's to say that the heavily armed band of misfits our human PC's lead always mean well? The other common argument is that the Dalish are totes xenos since they don't consider the city elves to be true elves and whatnot, and they do that ignoring Pol and Lanaya, who can potentially become a friggin Keeper despite being city born. And don't even get me started on how people go on about clan Virnehn...

 

So what you guys think? Do you believe that they've got beef with elves thanks to other lores like Tolkien's or TES'? Or do you think like me, that it's about time some of the nicer clans get a little more of screen time? The reason I'm posting this here is because in an elven group there is little to no chance of the subject derailing into a circular and irrational debate.

[Snook]

Honestly, it just seems like the same 5 or so people in every thread. 

[EmperorKarino]

join the elf support thread/club thing, i just joined it this morning. and i love elves, mostly played them in origins, and probably mostly play them in inquisition, and i was glad there was a female elf romance in 2.

[Icy Magebane]

Ok... this is actually way longer than I thought it would be, so I'm putting it in spoiler tags.  TLDR: People are complicated and do things for different reasons, some good, some bad.  This is a list of possibly decent reasons, as well as a really bad one...

 

Spoiler

I think that there are a lot of factors... as you mentioned, elves from other fictional worlds could play a part in the negative reception of DA elves.  In Skyrim, it was rare that we were able to do anything to harm the Thalmor, and what little damage we could cause was negated by the fact that they never leave the province and maintain a strangle hold on the Empire.  There is also the traditional view of elves as superior beings, which easily draws jealousy from human readers and gamers... with no outlet to take revenge on the elves of those universes, players may be more likely to take their frustration out on the fallen elves of DA.  At this point there is little hope that they will return to glory, and many players may simply wish to pour salt in the wound or ensure through their avatars that no progress is made in their favor...

 

This is not to say that the elves of Dragon Age are blameless.  Most groups on Thedas tend to be morally grey, and with every novel that is released we are presented with an increasing number of sinister snippets of lore regarding the elves.  Whether this is to be believed or not, it's easy to take these bits of information at face value since they can be used to make elves look bad as a whole... little thought is given to the possibility that people like Felassan might have been lying, or that there really are peaceful Dalish clans out in the world like the ones that live in Rivain... Unfortunately, the Rivani elves are so far away from the events of the game that they are easily dismissed.  A few sentences in obscure codex entries are not enough to change the minds of players who are constantly bombarded with negative images of elves, and so the actions of people like Zathrian are amplified tenfold.  If we had a larger sample size, with more positive examples of elves, the bad ones might come under less scrutiny.

 

Beyond that, there is the fact that interactions with the Dalish tend to be rather tense, especially if the PC is human.  It was very easy to get on the wrong side of the clans in DA:O and DA2, which can lead to frustration on the part of players.  In DA:O for example, sleeping with Gheyna turned the whole clan against the Warden and Varathron wouldn't even trade with them anymore... since there is no way to reverse this or reason with him, all further interactions with the clan become an annoying chore.  Now, while it can easily be argued that sleeping with Gheyna is a grave offense int he eyes of the Dalish, most players won't have considered that before the do it.   With no way to apologize or get back on the clan's good side, the player begins to dislike the Dalish for being "narrow minded."  Do you see what I'm getting at here?  As players, we tend to like to be in positions of power... the Dalish clans keep us on the defensive, even if we are playing as a Dalish (to a far lesser degree, but it's still there if we deviate from a specific set of dialogue options).  In order to remain in their favor, we as players need to respect their laws and customs... This can easily rub people the wrong way, some to the point that they never attempt to make peace with the Dalish or see the story from their perspective... that carries over to the forum since the player's ability to argue with the Dalish is extremely limited...

 

And then, of course, there are those who seem to despise all elves, not just the Dalish.  That part I don't really get, since the City Elves are never aggressive towards the PC.  At most, Shianni was a bit flippant in DA:O, but it was barely noticeable...  We don't even have many opportunities to interact with them, but they still draw a lot of hateful comments... If I had to guess, I'd attribute this to a human supremacist viewpoint.  Some players seem to not care what happens to the elves so long as they "stay in their place" at the bottom of society.  Like I said, I don't really get this one, but I get the feeling it's motivated by something sinister... that's all I really have to say about that.

 

These are just my opinions, of course... I'm not attempting to justify the hostility, because clearly it gets completely out of hand and in many cases feels like something far beyond simple distaste for a fantasy race... I'm only trying to look at both sides.  I don't think that everyone who has a problem with elves is trolling, but it depends on the person.

 

So IMO there are many reasons for the hostility.... some of them are legitimate, some less so.  I can't say why any individual feels the way they do, but I can understand how a person might not be willing to look for anything positive in the Dalish.

 

Personally, I am hoping that in DA:I we will have the opportunity to interact with Dalish clans that are a bit less combative than the norm so that new players (and some of the old) will have a chance to look at the situation differently.  The rumors of a War Table mission based on the Inquisitor's background gives me hope that the Lavellan clan will show up, and we saw a couple of icons on the War Table that may indicate quests with more than just one clan... hopefully the writers have something interesting planned rather than just more of the same...

[raging_monkey]

Humans are natrually predisposed to intolerance and bigotry due to cultrual and historical affiliations. Now apply tgis to rpging people will show their darker beliefs that they may not actually believe in but hold to due to memenic memory or actual disdain. The elves have been compared to jewish history(but they take inspiration from other oppressed ethnic grpups) which may create animosity to the elves.

Also if people see a oppresed ethnic group the will often treat them as the status quo dictates and are threaten when that is challenged.

Thank you for reading my post i know im still young but this my opinion and i do not state this as true for all just personal research

[SamanthaJ]

I'm really tired of all the nonsense that happens when elves are brought up. I don't want to bring negative feelings here, but some of the stuff a certain poster says really irks me. It's one thing not to like a group, I don't really care if people have different opinions than I do. However, even if we are talking about fictional races I can't stand hearing how they (the City Elves especially) deserve the lives their living. I've heard the same arguments used to justify the situations of subjugated groups in real life. It just sounds gross when anyone tries to justify a group of obviously sentient beings as less and deserving of bad things even if said group only exists in a fictional world. I'm glad elves can be talked about here without any of that happening.

[raging_monkey]

We are a family samantha no opinion is bad long as its respectful.

[Icy Magebane]

It really is a shame, whatever the reasons behind it... I'm hoping that if DA:I or some of the future novels paints the elves in a more positive light, at least some of the posters who dislike them would change their minds.  Not all, but some.  Even a single DA game or book without an elven character doing anything questionable would be nice... one wrong move and people tend to jump all over it... :/

[raging_monkey]

I agree fae, they are trying to be "real" with the elves but it sadly breeds malice instead of introspection on what cultural identity means to people. Its like afro-american culture somewhat. We try to keep what remains of culture but are "socially and politcally" required to adopt angolo-saxon culture to x extent to do so. To do other wise creates unnessacery trouble. Just my opinion

[Who Knows]

I'm pretty sure some of them say the things they do to annoy other people.

I mean, the thread is called "Elven Support Thread," they go there and advocate the genocide of elves. Obvious trolling. Otherwise, it takes a really "special" kind of person to literally believe that a large group of people should be slaughtered outright.

[raging_monkey]

Yeah... its definatly curious lines of thought

[veeia]

I think anytime players have an emotional reaction to something, they tend to argue about it like this. See: Loghain, Anders, Tevinter, the Qun, etc. Instead of approaching it from a top down perspective and analyzing things, they just sort of pick their bias and stick with it.

 

A lot of people probably had emotional reactions to the Dalish because they were so unfriendly to their PCs, and the city elves lack any agency, which often puts people off because a lot of people like to feel like everyone is in control of their situation and not actually limited by their circumstances. (Same for the Dalish too, really). 

 

I've always found it interesting that Orzammar doesn't inspire such debate (except for Bhelen/Harrowmount, but that's different) even though it has a pretty messed up society, and I do think it's partly because the dwarves are pretty respectful to the Warden unless you play dwarf (which barely anyone does). 

 

As for why the elves in particular are so extreme in this already heated area? Honestly I think some people just think it's really cool and edgy or whatever to crap on them. 

[raging_monkey]

Like i said elves are on the bottom of the pyramid and people on the higher part of the pyramid like to keep those lesser than them in there "place" fictional or otherwise, which is morally not cool or practical

[BronzTrooper]

Because people are douches.

 

Ok, legit reason?  It's because People seem to believe that the elves are completely responsible for their own situation despite it being forced upon them.  It's much like the quarians in the ME forums.  People tend to have something against wandering nomads and will automatically despise them for reasons such as, "They are vagrants." "They have no real culture." "They have no roots." etc.  Look at the gypsies in Europe.

 

imo, it's total BS that we elves and elf supporters have to resort to secluding ourselves from the rest of the forums because of trolls and Tevinter fanboys.  

[Icy Magebane]

Well, so long as we keep our cool and don't break the forum rules (even in this thread, since the mods do read them), we'll be fine.  Getting angry or frustrated is probably the response that some folks are looking for (not all... I like to think that at least some of them have legitimate grievances... maybe I'm kidding myself though), so we need to all stay calm and ignore the worst of it.  That's the great place about groups... we can talk about elves all we want here and we don't need to worry about dealing with the less pleasant aspects of the forum. 

[dragonflight288]

I genuinely do not get why elves get so much hate. Sure, I can see the Dalish getting some as they can be condescending to Hawke or your Warden, and some players don't like having to respect them and their culture in order to get along with them. 

 

But often times the call for complete genocide of the Dalish, and in some cases, all elves, goes completely beyond the pale that I genuinely think that there are trolls among them who are deliberately trying to goad us into breaking forum rules in order to get us banned so they don't have to hear our support of elves. 

 

Not all of them, but there are a few, three or four that is, that are consistently showing up wherever elf discussions take place and then do their level best to discredit anyone supporting elves, start making a bunch of arguments in favor of genocide, and then treating the elves as though they deserve their fate as suppressed 2nd class citizens or wandering nomads because they're elves and thus responsible for any and all problems between elves and humans. 

 

It gets quite aggravating, but I'm working on ignoring the posts that are obviously intended to bait us. 

[Ladylionhart]

Speaking as someone,who had her thread completely violated by trolls.I have do ask this question as well.Elves are such lovely,fascinating creatures with so much lore.

 

How can anyone hate them? it seems that most games do too,in almost every fantasy game I've played.Such as DA or Skyrim,Elves are totally frowned upon and it makes no sense at all to me.

 

Maybe it's because I'm 100 percent Pro-Elf but I don't understand the un-needed hatred at all 

[Ladylionhart]

Even the default Elven inquizzy doesn't understand.Look at her she's sad   *points to her avatar*

[SamanthaJ]

Well, hopefully what's going on in that thread won't last much longer.

 

>.> *cough*

[Ladylionhart]

I sent a PM to two mods.So I'm hoping they will lock it,,it's so sad to see my thread (that was INTENDED for pleasant discussion mind you) go up in flames  

 

I won't make that mistake again.I feel so stupid for expecting politeness from people.

 

Sadly I was raised that way and often get the carpet swept out from under me xD 

[SamanthaJ]

I sent a PM to two mods.So I'm hoping they will lock it,,it's so sad to see my thread (that was INTENDED for pleasant discussion mind you) go up in flames

 

I won't make that mistake again.I feel so stupid for expecting politeness from people.

 

Sadly I was raised that way and often get the carpet swept out from under me xD 

Aha, you too? We're probably not supposed to talk about it, but one post was particularly bad. That person edited it, but it was probably the worst I've seen on the forum. 

 

At least we have here where civility is a must have.

[BronzTrooper]

I sent a PM to two mods.So I'm hoping they will lock it,,it's so sad to see my thread (that was INTENDED for pleasant discussion mind you) go up in flames

 

I won't make that mistake again.I feel so stupid for expecting politeness from people.

 

Sadly I was raised that way and often get the carpet swept out from under me xD 

 

tbh, I was raised to be pretty cynical (whether intentional or not) so I wasn't exactly surprised.  imo, it's better to expect the best from people instead of expecting the worst.

[Ladylionhart]

I'm not surprised   ugh...those people.....

 

Whatever...I must not let them get to me any more then they have.

 

They just don't know a great race when they see one.

[CapivaRasgor]

Wow.. this thread got more responses than I expected, quicker than I expected too. I guess I’m not the only one who can’t wrap their heads around this… the hate seems just so dumb to me…

I agree what some of you said, the elves normally deviate from the usual groups our PC’s meet in that when you’re around them you have to adjust and do things their way a little, which can ****** people off a little. Personally this is what I love about DA’s elves (also about The Witcher’s), you have to actually work to get their respect if you want their help, they won’t put you in a pedestal and go “Oh thank god, here is the almighty PC who will solve our crisis”, they are in fact to be more like “Great, a heavily armed guy/gal, possibly dangerous, with unknown and potentially harmful intentions, as if we didn’t have enough problems…”. I love that, gives the feeling that you’ve actually accomplished something when they scratch their heads and say they were wrong about you, and the feeling of accomplishment is getting a little rare in recent RPG’s (the world is always saved, the conflict is always solved, the only thing that varies is how screwed up the world is after it). That and the fact that they take a little of control from me, in the form that they won’t simply bow down and accept something harmful to then without a fight (I particularly always found hilarious how the nobles would simply accept your indication for monarch in the Landsmeet without a word about it…)

PS: @Ladylionheart, what is this thread you were referring to? You’ve got me curious.