65 réponses à ce sujet

[BronzTrooper]

PS: @Ladylionheart, what is this thread you were referring to? You’ve got me curious.

 

The Elven Support Thread.  It got invaded by trolls, so I'd advise you to ignore it.

[CapivaRasgor]

The Elven Support Thread. It got invaded by trolls, so I'd advise you to ignore it.

Thought as much. Guess I'll keepcoit then.

[CapivaRasgor]

The Elven Support Thread. It got invaded by trolls, so I'd advise you to ignore it.

Thought as much. Guess I'll keep out then.

[dragonflight288]

That and the fact that they take a little of control from me, in the form that they won’t simply bow down and accept something harmful to then without a fight (I particularly always found hilarious how the nobles would simply accept your indication for monarch in the Landsmeet without a word about it…)

 

I totally see this. I mean, there is literally no proof whatsoever that Alistair is Maric's son. Sure, I have no doubt he is, but the only proof out there is Eamon's word, so the average bann or arl would be, or should be very skeptical. Maric never acknowledged Alistair, and Eamon was supposed to keep Alistair away from the throne and out of the spotlight. 

 

They probably just wanted an end to the infighting now that the Darkspawn are a clear and present threat, and had spread far enough that it was almost too late to save Ferelden. 

[Xilizhra]

Bigoted rightist dicks who wish to fellate a status quo that makes them feel powerful, and the sheep who follow them.

[animedreamer]

We're to perfect? I don't know if its any one thing. People will always find a reason to dislike someone if they truly are set on that path.

[Elfyoth]

Cuz there are Anti-Elficems in the world sadly :/

[LobselVith8]

There is a double standard from some of these people, who are willing to vilify an entire race of people over the actions of a few people, but will argue against people seeing their favored organizations negatively due to the behavior of some of it's members. Things have been horrible for both the Dalish and the Andrastian elves who live under human rule for the better part of a millennia, and the elves of Halamshiral were even killed in the thousands, yet some only persist in seeing the worst about the Elvhen.

 

I don't really get the negatively towards the Dalish (or the elves in general) - you have an ethnic group of people who follow a religion that's literally outlawed by humanity, who are shunned and hunted, and yet some players dislike them because the Dalish are naturally wary of outsiders. This makes no sense to me. Why wouldn't some of the Dalish be apprehensive when they have spent centuries in spite of outsiders trying to run them off, kill them, convert them by force, or capture their mages?

 

Do they bring up how a clan adopted an abandoned human infant who became Aveline the Knight, and changed the lives of women across Thedas forever? No. Do they bring up how Velanna's clan responds in a positive manner when they see Velanna in the company of humans, and openly take the word of an outsider who has said Velanna has changed for the better? No. All they do is look at the worst, and take it as an example that this is all there is to the Dalish.

 

This has been an issue since Origins - there are also people who demonize the Dalish because the storyteller Sarel is hostile towards the protagonist - despite the fact that there are a number of other people within the clan who don't treat the Warden in this fashion, and that it's revealed Sarel's hostility steams from the recent murder of his wife by the werewolves. Or because of Zathrian, despite the fact that he was a single man who acted in secret against the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter. The fact that Sarel can come to see that the Warden has been an asset to the clan (by doing good deeds, like helping Elora tend to the halla) goes unnoticed.

 

The fact that people like Elora, Cammen, Lanaya, Athras, Deygan, and a plethora of others don't treat you with disdain completely escapes them.

 

With the release of TME and the caricature of characters who comprised Clan Virnehn certainly didn't help matters, since now they can point to a single, atypical clan and say all Dalish are like this, despite the lore and other existing examples disproving this. One-dimensional, asinine Dalish cartoons using Andrastian terms because it would be too confusing to provide an elven perspective, who were nothing more than a plot device to move the story forward. Hopefully, this isn't the case with Clan Lavellan, with the Dalish in the Dales, or Clan Ralaferin in MP.

[veeia]

I love TME--and I don't think the Dalish portrayal in it was as bad as some of the Dalish haters claim--but I also kind of hate it for being this giant hammer people are using to bash the Dalish with over and over again. 

 

I think there's a lot more subtle Dalish things to be read into it and I can't tell if:

 

1) I'm just finding it where it isn't because I don't like one dimensional portrayals & other than that, TME is full of layered, grey characters and Weekes is perfectly fine with how it's being read by many people. 

2)Weekes intended to make it subtle (which asks the subquestion, is that an effective device if many readers miss it?)

3) He didn't get in the material he wanted to into the final draft of the book, or failed at conveying what he wanted to.

4) ??

 

I really wish there was a way I could ask him about that, like how Liane was so cool with answering questions about Last Flight. I understand he doesn't post on the forums much (and since he worked on ME3, I get that ), and TME was so polarizing that I'm sure it'd be rough if he did but...lmao. I wanna know what was going on there. 

[raging_monkey]

I agree lob it is a messed situatation. The fact that elves and supporters have to run to the group forums blows

[CapivaRasgor]

Actually what impresses me the most about these people regarding the Dalish is how they are always blaming the entire clan based on the actions of it's Keeper, which is pretty much stupid IMO. Zathrian's clan had no idea what sinister past he had, the same may be very well the case for the Virnehn clan and the dealing with Ismhael. I mean, you blame the entire clan, down to the last man, woman and child for the dumb decisions of their leader? Specially given the possibility that most weren't even aware of it in the first place? 

[raging_monkey]

Actually what impresses me the most about these people regarding the Dalish is how they are always blaming the entire clan based on the actions of it's Keeper, which is pretty much stupid IMO. Zathrian's clan had no idea what sinister past he had, the same may be very well the case for the Virnehn clan and the dealing with Ismhael. I mean, you blame the entire clan, down to the last man, woman and child for the dumb decisions of their leader? Specially given the possibility that most weren't even aware of it in the first place? 

people love to use broad strokes and "ignorance is not innocence" atrguments, dont they? Its impressive i agree capi

[A Clever Name]

I think much of it stems from a lack of consideration.  People don't bother to come up with reasons why their PC might receive the reactions they do from the Dalish - they simply see that their precious brain-child (and I do not deny them the right to feel this way, so please excuse my phrasing if it rubs the wrong way) is being treated as less than what they expect of the game.  Thus they react as they will in a game that allows for great player agency and do not bother to consider other paths to be taken, which almost always reveals many facets that their own initial perceptions deny from their field of vision.  First impressions are lasting, unfortunately.

 

There's also the matter of ignoring one of the core tenets of Dragon Age - I call it the "Unclean Hands Rule."  Do you have a group or groups of people that you have to make a decision on/between?  One side is never going to fully be in the right.  There needs to be a reason or two for either decision to seem logical in its basis.  Therefore we see that the Dalish are also affected by this Unclean Hands Rule.  However, people are quick to forget that the side they didn't choose had moralistic merits over the other.  No one wants to believe that their decision is morally questionable, even though it always will be in Dragon Age.  You can see this in almost every facet of the fandom and its arguments over what is the best choice to make, on mages vs. Templars to werewolves vs. Dalish.  In the end the only truth that is acceptable in these debates is that our own morals determine what we believe is the right decision to make.

 

Unfortunately they often make the easy fallacy of the hasty generalization - "Thou shalt not use small numbers to represent the whole" - and proceed to apply what they've seen to literally everyone that fits into that descriptor.

 

These are some of the problems I've seen that people haven't yet touched on - this isn't to say that these are the only problems at heart.  I'm not capable of delving into the minds of forumites and determining why exactly each feels as they do about the Dalish.  I've also only discussed the Dalish here, since I see very few, if any, that genuinely use pejorative language when speaking about city elves.  Although that reminds me that I once considered posting "TIL that people enjoy being oppressed, but only if they get to choose how they're oppressed."    Kinda glad I didn't, I have a feeling my sass would've gotten me into trouble.

 

Of course, I like the Dalish because they aren't infallible.  Flawed characters are usually my favorites.  It's terribly boring to me when characters are written in ways that make it clear the author is feeding you breadcrumbs down a black or white trail.

 

 

Also, it's nice to see you Lobsel!  I feel like I haven't seen you around in ages.  As usual, well-said.

[veeia]

I also think that a bit of the Dragon Age Ridiculous Timelines Without Any Consideration for How Things Realistically Evolve and Change Over Time is in play here....if you're going to judge the Dalish without thinking about that, you might be a bit perplexed about why their attitude has remained consistent throughout all the clans without any benefit for so long...so you make them even more EXTREMEEE in your head to compensate for that. 

[Tevinter Rose]

-snip-

this.

 

[LobselVith8]

I love TME--and I don't think the Dalish portrayal in it was as bad as some of the Dalish haters claim--but I also kind of hate it for being this giant hammer people are using to bash the Dalish with over and over again. 

 

I think there's a lot more subtle Dalish things to be read into it and I can't tell if:

 

1) I'm just finding it where it isn't because I don't like one dimensional portrayals & other than that, TME is full of layered, grey characters and Weekes is perfectly fine with how it's being read by many people. 

2)Weekes intended to make it subtle (which asks the subquestion, is that an effective device if many readers miss it?)

3) He didn't get in the material he wanted to into the final draft of the book, or failed at conveying what he wanted to.

4) ??

 

I really wish there was a way I could ask him about that, like how Liane was so cool with answering questions about Last Flight. I understand he doesn't post on the forums much (and since he worked on ME3, I get that ), and TME was so polarizing that I'm sure it'd be rough if he did but...lmao. I wanna know what was going on there. 

 

You could ask Weekes on twitter. He's pretty open to speaking with people, including fans. I asked him why the Dalish were using Andrastian vernacular in the story (like 'demons') and he said it was mainly for reader convenience.

 

My issue isn't that I think TME is horrible; it's that the Dalish lack the depth given to the other characters. I'm not given insight into the elven perspective, and we're not even permitted to see the Dalish use proper elven terms (elvish) but rather Andrastian terminology. I strongly disliked Thelhen and the warleader - who kept misusing the word 'shemlen' as though he meant 'shem', and seemed to exist solely to make Michel look good in comparison. You could have exercised them entirely and lost nothing from the story because they lack the nuance that Weekes gave to the other characters, like Gaspard and Celene, or even the minor human characters, like Pierre. They seemed solely to exist so that Felassan could claim to Briala that all Dalish are like this.

 

Flawed characters are one thing - I can understand Zathrian's rage at the humans who transgressed against his children without agreeing with his actions, after all - but there's not much there when it comes to Thelhen or the warleader. A flawed Keeper, or an intelligent warleader who would be verbally sparring with Michel as an equal (rather than a buffoon), would have been preferable. It's hard to see them as characters when they clearly exist to serve a single purpose as a plot device for Briala to get the Eluvians, and nothing else.

 

Even Briala's caution to Mihris at the end (about how the Dalish need to remember that the Andrastian elves are their people, too) rings hollow because there are Dalish who clearly care about the elves living in human cities - from Zathrian's clan, who rescued Aneirin when they found him left for dead after the templars ran him through, to Merrill, who makes it clear their plight matters. We even have a clan in the Multiplayer who saved a human boy, and raised him until he was old enough to survive on his own, so Felassan's notion that all Dalish are like this clearly atypical clan is baffling.

 

It's the lack of a balanced look at the Dalish that bothers me. As well as the fact that I feel Weekes could've handled it much better, particularly given how well he performed with developing Celene, Gaspard, and Briala, who stands as my single hope for a satisfying choice in the Orlesian conflict.

 

Thelhen's views on the city elves, and his refusal to help the elves of Halamshiral, was infuriating; the fact he is the primary Dalish voice in the story. If Mihris does show up in Inquisition, I hope my character can talk about Virnehn with nothing but contempt and disdain. Both Velanna and Ariane knew Mahariel from the last Arlathvhen, after all.

 

On the positive side, the narrative did address how the Eluvians could be positively applied for the benefit of the Elvhen. Merrill was right about the usefulness of the Eluvians.

[veeia]

My reading of it was that Felassan led Briala exactly to the situation that would end up with her concluding that the Dalish were all like that, because they didn't fit into his plans. He's very aware that there are mixed opinions amongst the Dalish, but he wanted to shape her in a certain way, so he manipulated things until only his path was open to her. He's the one who plants the Dalish don't care sentiment in her, he's the one who leads her to the Dalish who says he doesn't care, etc.

 

So what I was hoping for was something that would indicate to the reader that this was a strong possibility while still keeping Briala's acceptance of what he says reasonable. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

My reading of it was that Felassan led Briala exactly to the situation that would end up with her concluding that the Dalish were all like that, because they didn't fit into his plans. He's very aware that there are mixed opinions amongst the Dalish, but he wanted to shape her in a certain way, so he manipulated things until only his path was open to her. He's the one who plants the Dalish don't care sentiment in her, he's the one who leads her to the Dalish who says he doesn't care, etc.

 

So what I was hoping for was something that would indicate to the reader that this was a strong possibility while still keeping Briala's acceptance of what he says reasonable. 

 

But he straight up tells her other clans are different. She asks about them once and then the story just forgets that they exist. The book actually does a consistent job mentioning that there are many types of relationships between various elves and humans but not in making that matter. I almost wonder if those references were added later in the book (after the plot and characters were set in stone) so that fans know they are still supposed to exist.

[dragonflight288]

people love to use broad strokes and "ignorance is not innocence" atrguments, dont they? Its impressive i agree capi

 

They love to use arguments like that against the Dalish, but use similar arguments against the Chantry or Orlais, and suddenly your the bigot and hate monger, and must be lying because Orlais must be more reputable because the Chantry has scholars and the Dalish have word of mouth....

 

I mean, to them, it's not like Orlais or the Chantry is free of bias right? 

[raging_monkey]

They love to use arguments like that against the Dalish, but use similar arguments against the Chantry or Orlais, and suddenly your the bigot and hate monger, and must be lying because Orlais must be more reputable because the Chantry has scholars and the Dalish have word of mouth....
 
I mean, to them, it's not like Orlais or the Chantry is free of bias right?

MT threads use that like gospel lol. Like i said haters gonna hate best we can do is tolerate it.... until they get extreme and activly harass us. Then we summon the mods

[raging_monkey]

Who remain silent until we lose our tempers, and then bear down on us instead. 

ah yes the irony lol but its better than my plan so temperance is the current solution...

[Just My Moniker]

Why do elves draw so much negativity? Well people always like to put down the awesome people to make themselves feel better 

 

The haters just can't handle our pointy-eared, coolness 

[Ignasious]

I agree with alot of the ideas here, but I think there may be one more layer to this.

There is a common trend I have noticed on other forums (mainly, Warhammer 40k forums), where people have picked up habits of the group/person/race they play and talk about most. As an example, people who played as chaos marines (basically, evil demon worshiping anarchists), showed a lot of dislike for all things related to their rival team. Even more fitting, people who played as worshippers of a specific god, had a tendency to act fitting to cultists of that god (those who played as followers of the god of change and hope for example, hoped their things would get better soon).

The same can be said here, with some people who played as pro templar act as if pro mages are naive and some even thinking Meredith or Alrik had the right idea (atleast, I think I can recall it from some time ago). They sympathise with those they support, and takes on aspects.

I guess, in a ironic way, we elvhen supporters do the same. We have a secluded group, which (it feels like atleast) is a tight knit group, who spend our time talking about the awesomeness that are the elves. Does sound a bit familiar, yes? :-)

Or, I am just assuming alot...tis atleast a theory

[raging_monkey]

I agree with alot of the ideas here, but I think there may be one more layer to this.
There is a common trend I have noticed on other forums (mainly, Warhammer 40k forums), where people have picked up habits of the group/person/race they play and talk about most. As an example, people who played as chaos marines (basically, evil demon worshiping anarchists), showed a lot of dislike for all things related to their rival team. Even more fitting, people who played as worshippers of a specific god, had a tendency to act fitting to cultists of that god (those who played as followers of the god of change and hope for example, hoped their things would get better soon).
The same can be said here, with some people who played as pro templar act as if pro mages are naive and some even thinking Meredith or Alrik had the right idea (atleast, I think I can recall it from some time ago). They sympathise with those they support, and takes on aspects.
I guess, in a ironic way, we elvhen supporters do the same. We have a secluded group, which (it feels like atleast) is a tight knit group, who spend our time talking about the awesomeness that are the elves. Does sound a bit familiar, yes? :-)
Or, I am just assuming alot...tis atleast a theory

you assume correct on us and the forums imo.