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The Tevinter Imperium support thread- "Tevinter is coming"


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#276
Xilizhra

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+1

 

I think that has more to do with the focus on nurturing magical bloodlines than a cultural distaste for homosexuality... wasn't there a transgender Magister in the comic books?  Was that character discriminated against...?  They seemed pretty well off based on the wiki article, at least...

 

http://dragonage.wik...Maevaris_Tilani

 

I don't think the Senate would recognize somebody as a Magister if the nation really had a problem with homosexuality...

Well, Iran, for instance, tries to push homosexuals into transitioning even if they aren't trans. So it's not as straight a line as it might seem to us.



#277
Hanako Ikezawa

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They weren't stealing. They weren't wrangling. It was all organized and sanctioned by Loghain's temporary regency. Or was that my imagination? They were really kidnapping elves in the cover of night off the Alienage streets.

 

Right...

Not the slavers I was referring to.

 

Only listening to Tevinter would be a good start, you have much to learn without lie's polluting your head.

 

search both the codex wiki and hell world of thedas, The Imperial chantry has revealed the truth. Andraste was a mortal prophet with very, very powerful magic.

they even wrote a book about it called  "the Search for the True Prophet"

So the Imperial Chantry, who supports the rule of mages, has 'discovered' that Andraste was a 'mage'. How convenient for them. It's not like her power could come from a higher power or something. 

 

The magi rule because only Magi can use magic to serve the greater good. How can someone without magic use magic to serve the greater good? your talk nonsense. Even if we abandon what the Imperial chantry teaches us and accept your idea that Magi rule simply because they are strong. How is that unbecoming? the south rule based on who has more money or who kill's their brother's quick enough. 

you can have fat, bloated, inbred, retards ruling simply because their great grandfather happened to wed a woman who's great grandfather once lead an army on a battlefield.

Simple. Because the person without magic has an objective view of magic. To them, it is just another asset. This is true for many mages as well, I'm not saying it isn't, but if you personally have the magic then you are personally having all the temptations that comes with it. Blood magic for example has been made akin to the Dark Side of the Force because the more you use it the more you want to use it. 

And likewise you can have a demon wearing a mage suit rule simply because they are more powerful than anyone else.  

 

You pretend the Serf's in the south have control over their own lives, but they do not. A Baker can never be a Knight. They have a roll and their place and that's it. the nobles control everything a serf can be conscripted at a moments notice. They have no say, no real freedom. They have the Illusion of choice. this is a false doctrine. you pretend they some small level of control over their lives yet even that can be snatched away at a moments notice.

Loghain was a serf He became a teyrn. 

Carver was a serf. He can become a Templar. 

The CE Warden was a serf. They can become an arl. 

All noble lines come from a ancestor who was a serf. 

If you prove you are skilled and competent, you can advance. Meanwhile if you are a slave and prove skilled, you are a skilled slave. 

 

and no a Mage cannot do what they want even in the confines of the tower. They cannot wed, raise a family, Study what they want or even stay up all night. they are at the mercy of those that run the circle.

Fair points about the family. However they are allowed to study anything that is legal to study. And they also have the protection of the higher mages, since it requires the First Enchanter's permission before the Templars can act against a mage. Kirkwall was an exception. 

 

You equate Tevinter's honesty on peoples position to that of a rapist, yet it an inaccurate point. How many children will be left to starve to or freeze to death with no one taking care of them for so called freedom in the south? 

How many would have lived longer, healthier lives if not for them dying from anything from overexertion to being sacrificed for the entertainment of guests at a party?

 

The problem is you equate the term freedom with what we have in the real world, in thedas there is none of it. no support, no rights, no education. they are at the beck and call of the lords while receiving none of the benefits.

 

Take for example if a lord rapes a young elf? in the south nobody blinks an eye. just an elf

in tevinter there's a very good chance  that thats someones property. You have to pay reparations.

 

the Slave in Tevinter is protected from all but their master.

in the south nobody protects the serf at all not only can their lord do what they want, so can any other.

Have I ever said I didn't want the other nations to provide more rights? The answer is I have not. If someone was promoting Orlais, I would be(and have) pointing out their glaring flaws. That said, it is still better than Tevinter. 

Also, there is education. The Chantry and people's families provide it. Hence why people are able to read and write. Meanwhile Fenris for example can't say the same.

 

They pay the slave's owner, not the slave. So how is it any better? If anything, the owner benefits on their expense since they get money for it which makes it worse. 

 

Not much to say since said master would sacrifice you in a moment's notice if they so desired. They are objects to the magisters. 

And no, a lord from another area could not do whatever they wanted to the serfs of that area's lord. Orlesian lords can't do what they like to Ferelden serfs for example. 



#278
Icy Magebane

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-snip-

I don't know anything about that and the mods have repeatedly told us not to bring up real world issues... I'm basing my opinions on the world of Dragon Age and the information presented in the games and novels.  Nothing else.



#279
Lulupab

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From now on, anytime you complain about the Circle System, I will use this quote.

 
Taken words right out of my mouth:
 

The issue of the Circle was never that we're willing to destroy various nations for mage freedom; the issue is that the current system is not needed for these nations to survive.


Besides I complain about the past circle system, I might like an improved one. So I have no problem with circle system in general but the one that the mages rebelled against really needed to go.



#280
Xilizhra

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Carver was not a bloody serf. He was an affluent farmer's son; the Hawkes seemed to own their own property, and Carver's combat training is far beyond that which any serf would logically receive.

 

So the Imperial Chantry, who supports the rule of mages, has 'discovered' that Andraste was a 'mage'. How convenient for them. It's not like her power could come from a higher power or something.

There's no reason to believe it could.



#281
Icy Magebane

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Besides I complain about the past circle system, I might like an improved one. So I have no problem with circle system in general but the one that the mages rebelled against really needed to go.

I didn't know that... I thought you favored total mage freedom.  So you wouldn't mind if the White Chantry nations switched over to something similar to the Tevinter-style Circle?  IMO that Circle is probably the best a mage can hope for aside from being an apostate...



#282
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Ferelden is the exception of the rule what with freeholders and all. It's the closest thing to meritocracy what with the Landsmeet and the ability to challenge the king.



#283
Hanako Ikezawa

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Carver was not a bloody serf. He was an affluent farmer's son; the Hawkes seemed to own their own property, and Carver's combat training is far beyond that which any serf would logically receive.

Fair enough. Still proves my point that people can rise above serf status. I mean, the Hawkes were an apostate and a Free Marcher. There are no inherent rights in that.  

 

There's no reason to believe it could.

It is possible, I agree. But Tevinter has no more facts she was a mage than the Chantry does that she was divine. Heck, maybe both or neither are right. 



#284
Lulupab

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I didn't know that... I thought you favored total mage freedom.  So you wouldn't mind if the White Chantry nations switched over to something similar to the Tevinter-style Circle?  IMO that Circle is probably the best a mage can hope for aside from being an apostate...


Total mage freedom doesn't work for many reasons. Its obvious the cons outweigh the pros. Evidently Tevinter takes action against magic when its absolutely necessary. They still tranquil the mages and all that, but excellence is awarded as well as failure is punished. It appears Tevinter mages who are fully trained are allowed to leave the circle, get married and have children and live their life, meddle in politics join the army etc... Tevinter holds many circles, if I remember correctly each old god had a huge building as a temple and once the gods were gone all of these buildings became circles. There should be more than 5 circles in tevinter whereas there are 15 total circles outside of Tevinter. Unless a tevinter mage makes rivals by trying to climb the mageocracy hierarchy, he/she will probably have the best life a mage can have.
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#285
Xilizhra

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Fair enough. Still proves my point that people can rise above serf status. I mean, the Hawkes were an apostate and a Free Marcher. There are no inherent rights in that. 

People who live in cities are not, by and large, serfs. They might be poor as all hell, but they're not bonded to a feudal lord who controls their entire lives. And the apostate status, of course, had to be hidden.

 

 

It is possible, I agree. But Tevinter has no more facts she was a mage than the Chantry does that she was divine. Heck, maybe both or neither are right. 

Given what we know about mages, vs. what we don't know about gods, the logical answer for the time being is to say that she was a mage. If magic is supposed to be a gift from the Maker, there's not a logical reason why she wouldn't be even if she was supposed to be divine.



#286
Icy Magebane

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Total mage freedom doesn't work for many reasons. Its obvious the cons outweigh the pros. Evidently Tevinter takes action against magic when its absolutely necessary. They still tranquil the mages and all that, but excellence is awarded as well as failure is punished. It appears Tevinter mages who are fully trained are allowed to leave the circle, get married and have children and live their life, meddle in politics join the army etc... Tevinter holds many circles, if I remember correctly each old god had a huge building as a temple and once the gods were gone all of these buildings became circles. There should be more than 5 circles in tevinter whereas there are 15 total circles outside of Tevinter. Unless a tevinter mage makes rivals by trying to climb the mageocracy hierarchy, he/she will probably have the best life a mage can have.

This is pretty much why I want to see a game set in Tevinter.  It would be nice to see the other side's point of view for a change...  I mean, they have existed for thousands of years without falling apart.  It's true that they are a shadow of their former glory thanks to the Qunari, Blights, and Andraste, but the only strictly magical problem their nation faced was the Blights.  Abominations don't randomly pop up all the time, and if they do, they are put down fast enough that the nation isn't constantly unstable...  There has to be something worthwhile about that nation to have survived for so long and against such overwhelming odds...  I'd like to see it first hand.


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#287
MisterJB

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 Besides I complain about the past circle system, I might like an improved one. So I have no problem with circle system in general but the one that the mages rebelled against really needed to go.

Nope, if "Greater Good" can be used to excuse slavery in Tevinter, Greater Good can be used to excuse the Circle in its pre-rebellion state.

 

 

Tevinter doesn't trade with any nation but Dwarves and its entire economy is run on slavery. If I remember correctly an Archon was assassinated in matter of minutes after trying to do something about slavery. Its constantly in wars and it needs money, period. Not that I support this but its the greater good we are talking about. In our history we have tolerated everything if our nation's survival depended on it.

 

 

 

 



#288
Lulupab

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Nope, if "Greater Good" can be used to excuse slavery in Tevinter, Greater Good can be used to excuse the Circle in its pre-rebellion state.


But even you should see the paranoia in that. Tevinter is openly and so clearly in danger but mages might be dangerous. They are systematically abused for a risk.

#289
Lulupab

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This is pretty much why I want to see a game set in Tevinter.  It would be nice to see the other side's point of view for a change...  I mean, they have existed for thousands of years without falling apart.  It's true that they are a shadow of their former glory thanks to the Qunari, Blights, and Andraste, but the only strictly magical problem their nation faced was the Blights.  Abominations don't randomly pop up all the time, and if they do, they are put down fast enough that the nation isn't constantly unstable...  There has to be something worthwhile about that nation to have survived for so long and against such overwhelming odds...  I'd like to see it first hand.


Initially we were going to visit Tevinter in DA:I. The devs decided this nation deserves its own game and not a quest so it was removed.

#290
Icy Magebane

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Initially we were going to visit Tevinter in DA:I. The devs decided this nation deserves its own game and not a quest so it was removed.

I hope you're right... I was very disappointed to learn we would not be visiting Tevinter in DA:I.  I heard about a multiplayer level set there, but that's not really good enough... :/  I want to play as a Tevinter and experience the culture first hand.  They are running out of White Chantry nations to base the games in anyway... unless they return to Ferelden again in a future game...  -_- 



#291
The Elder King

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Initially we were going to visit Tevinter in DA:I. The devs decided this nation deserves its own game and not a quest so it was removed.


If was actually stated when this was brought up that Tevinter (as well Nevarra and the FM) were never meant to be in. They discussed about their possible inclusion, but they decided against it (Probably for the reason you stated).

#292
The Elder King

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I hope you're right... I was very disappointed to learn we would not be visiting Tevinter in DA:I.  I heard about a multiplayer level set there, but that's not really good enough... :/  I want to play as a Tevinter and experience the culture first hand.  They are running out of White Chantry nations to base the games in anyway... unless they return to Ferelden again in a future game...  -_-

Antiva, Nevarra, the Anderfels, Technically Rivain ;).
But I agree, I want to visit Tevinter.

#293
Icy Magebane

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Antiva, Nevarra, the Anderfels, Technically Rivain ;).
But I agree, I want to visit Tevinter.

:(  That's more countries than we have games unless the 5 game plan gets an extension... *optimism fading...*



#294
MisterJB

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But even you should see the paranoia in that. Tevinter is openly and so clearly in danger but mages might be dangerous. They are systematically abused for a risk.

There is no "might". Mages are openly and clearly dangerous and openly and clearly a threat to the existence of the current nations in Thedas.

Therefore, the Circle is for the Greater Good just like you claimed slavery is.



#295
The Elder King

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:(  That's more countries than we have games unless the 5 game plan gets an extension... *optimism fading...*


I think tevinter has a better Shot to be a game location then the Anderfels or Rivain though.

#296
Tevinter Soldier

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:(  That's more countries than we have games unless the 5 game plan gets an extension... *optimism fading...*

 

See i'm the opposite, I don't want a game set in Tevinter, after the homophobic thing. and given biowares commitment to equality i can't see how they would set a game in tevinter without the current system having collapsed.

 

The setting would require a less good and evil route which i don't see them doing. 

 

like the Qunari, Tevinter seems unlikely to ever be portrayed as anything other than the bad guy's.



#297
Icy Magebane

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I think tevinter has a better Shot to be a game location then the Anderfels or Rivain though.

Well, if the Qunari are involved, it could either be Tevinter (Seheron) or Rivain... the Anderfels have a decent shot of being featured since the Grey Wardens are based there and have been up to something mysterious since DA2... I guess we'll just have to wait and see.  In the meantime, there is the MP map, so at the very least we can observe Tevinter architecture...



#298
Icy Magebane

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See i'm the opposite, I don't want a game set in Tevinter, after the homophobic thing. and given biowares commitment to equality i can't see how they would set a game in tevinter without the current system having collapsed.

 

The setting would require a less good and evil route which i don't see them doing. 

 

like the Qunari, Tevinter seems unlikely to ever be portrayed as anything other than the bad guy's.

Eh... sorry but I just don't buy into the Tevinter Imperium being homophobic... there's no real evidence of that except for Dorian, and he has other problems with Tevinter.  Let's also keep in mind that he comes from a line that traditionally did not have magic, and thus his family was raised to Laetan status because he was born with the gift.  If he doesn't pass that gift on by having kids, it's kind of a waste, no?

 

Unless his origin is back to Altus now... last I heard, it was Laetan...



#299
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Eh... sorry but I just don't buy into the Tevinter Imperium being homophobic... there's no real evidence of that except for Dorian, and he has other problems with Tevinter. Let's also keep in mind that he comes from a line that traditionally did not have magic, and thus his family was raised to Laetan status because he was born with the gift. If he doesn't pass that gift on by having kids, it's kind of a waste, no?

Unless his origin is back to Altus now... last I heard, it was Laetan...

He's Laetan, but I don't think his family is elevated becuase of him. Once one family is elevated it remains Laetan, it can't become Altus.
One of Dorian's ancestor made his family reach The Laetan class, probably.

#300
Lulupab

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There is no "might". Mages are openly and clearly dangerous and openly and clearly a threat to the existence of the current nations in Thedas.
Therefore, the Circle is for the Greater Good just like you claimed slavery is.


That can only be your opinion as mages have saved Thedas beyond counting. The fact that Tevinter is in danger from rest of Thedas and Qunari is undeniable and there is no room for debate. But much can be debated about what you just claimed. There are better ways to control dangers of magic without oppressing the mages but slavery is an absolute, if you are slave you are slave. Not to mention slaves are treated better than servants in Orlais and city elves in general. Excellence is awarded in Tevinter no matter the origin, such was the case in Rome and Byzantine as well.