15958 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

There are a lot of slavers from elsewhere in the world that sell to Tevinter and others, but the Hawke mansion was filled with Tevinter slavers. Danzig's guys (who kidnapped Feynriel) was Tevinter wasn't he? AND there were those guys that Danarius sent after Fenris. I think at least one of the night street gang was a Tevinter slaver group wasn't it?

 

Really? Those gangs are just there for exp grind. They are not mentioned a single piece of lore Whether the sisters or other gangs. Besides if Danarius already paid for Fenris before, that's not stealing is it? I mean I gladly killed him, but in a sense Fenris stole himself. 

[lordsaren101]

Blood magic is perfectly legitimate field of study. Greater power is achieved and the imperium prospers. So what if a few slaves die...less mouths to feed. At least they die in service to their betters.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Really? Those gangs are just there for exp grind. They are not mentioned a single piece of lore Whether the sisters or other gangs. Besides if Danarius already paid for Fenris before, that's not stealing is it? I mean I gladly killed him, but in a sense Fenris stole himself. 

 

Just because they don't have codex entries doesn't make them non canon or something. Besides, they all have letters that you read when the stronghold cleanout quest is triggered. That counts as a piece of lore.

[Drasanil]

Well hold on there... first off, I'm not the one who proposed "unfettered" magical research... I'm only in favor of less restriction than what the White Chantry Circles allow, not unlimited freedom.  I also said that I don't agree with everything about Tevinter culture... mainly that includes the oppressive or immoral aspects.  The thing is, even with all of those negatives, it's still a lot better for a mage to be born there than most other places in Thedas.  Rivain and possibly Nevarra would be decent options as well...  although I have a strong distaste for the Rivaini seers and the overall refusal to properly contain and prevent abominations in that nation... but that's another topic entirely...

 

Sorry about that, it wasn't meant as a critique at you specially, you just had the biggest post about it. Given most peoples' apparent willingness to go along with unrestrained magical research, while in the same breath condemning slavery the entire position seemed hypocritical.

 

You also seem to be forgetting that slavery and blood magic go hand in hand in Tevinter... without slaves to power these rituals, how would the Magisters even be able to access the furthest depths of spellcraft?  If I condemn slavery, does it not also follow that I condemn the use of slaves as power sources for dark rituals?  Is it not apparent then that I believe in laws and oversight, at least to some degree?

 

 

Well we know laws already only 'sort of' apply to Magisters and even if you outlawed slavery, that would either just shift the research underground. Or they'd find new sources like POWs or declare certain groups 'undesirable' to get a fresh supply. Why even open that door when there is almost invariably much more bad to be gained than good? 

[The Elder King]

Except it was Tevinter's knowledge of blood magic that allowed the joining ritual to happen and grey wardens coming into being.
 
Also Tevinter mages going into fade was not "study". It was promise of a an old god. Mages knew how to get into fade already.

They were fooled, sacrificed thousands of slaves and tons of lyrium for something They didn't need, since They we're already at the top, and suffered the consequences by becoming monsters (and Possibly starting the first Blight, the worst thing that happened in Thedas for now.
So Yeah, the fact that They helped (other factions helped as well) in the formation of the grey Wardens doesn't make up completely for what They caused.

[Lulupab]

Just because they don't have codex entries doesn't make them non canon or something. Besides, they all have letters that you read when the stronghold cleanout quest is triggered. That counts as a piece of lore.

They are non canon. Their existence will never be acknowledged and that's how it should be. We are practically performing genocide, there is no consequence and nobody cares. DA2 was a rushed game and its a great way to add something to the game without much effort. Just spam NPCs without story and let the player gain levels.

[Master Warder Z_]

They were fooled, sacrificed thousands of slaves and tons of lyrium for something They didn't need, since They we're already at the top, and suffered the consequences by becoming monsters (and Possibly starting the first Blight, the worst thing that happened in Thedas for now.
So Yeah, the fact that They helped (other factions helped as well) in the formation of the grey Wardens doesn't make up completely for what They caused.

Not even close really.

 

Not to mention they didn't "create" ****.

 

They met a Reaver who taught them.

[The Elder King]

Blood magic is perfectly legitimate field of study. Greater power is achieved and the imperium prospers. So what if a few slaves die...less mouths to feed. At least they die in service to their betters.

The first Blight surely lead to a new Golden era for Tevinter.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They are non canon. Their existence will never be acknowledged and that's how it should be. We are practically performing genocide, there is no consequence and nobody cares. DA2 was a rushed game and its a great way to add something to the game without much effort. Just spam NPCs without story and let the player gain levels.

 

All the characters acknowledge the existence of the street gangs when you go out at night and so does the NPC in quest where you get money for killing them.

[The Elder King]

Not even close really.
 
Not to mention they didn't "create" ****.
 
They met a Reaver who taught them.

You mean the Wardens?

[Lulupab]

They were fooled, sacrificed thousands of slaves and tons of lyrium for something They didn't need, since They we're already at the top, and suffered the consequences by becoming monsters (and Possibly starting the first Blight, the worst thing that happened in Thedas for now.
So Yeah, the fact that They helped (other factions helped as well) in the formation of the grey Wardens doesn't make up completely for what They caused.

 

Lets just establish the fact that by "They" you mean the few puppet magisters who took direct orders from the old gods. This is precisely why the Imperial chantry clearly blames the old gods for blights, not magic. I couldn't agree more. Blaming all mages and magic for what some magisters did is exactly what Meredith did. Its simply false.

[Tevinter Soldier]

The first Blight surely lead to a new Golden era for Tevinter.

 

There you go with chantry lies again. 

[Lulupab]

All the characters acknowledge the existence of the street gangs when you go out at night and so does the NPC in quest where you get money for killing them.

 

OK I'm not gonna convince you. I don't have time for your stretching. There is no codex which means they are not integrated in the story. Killing them or not killing does not affect anything the slightest and you bet they will not appear in the keep. Not to mention some of them were added in later patches (to enable the player to reach max level which is their sole purpose) and they never change the story with patches. Its something completely unrelated to game and a grind for exp and loot.

[Master Warder Z_]

You mean the Wardens?

 

Nah.

 

The Magisters turned Wardens met a Reaver who's own practices inspired their joining ritual.

 

Naraki or something like that.

 

It's covered in WOT.

[Drasanil]

Lets just establish the fact that by "They" you mean the few puppet magisters who took direct orders from the old gods. This is precisely why the Imperial chantry clearly blames the old gods for blights, not magic. I couldn't agree more. Blaming all mages and magic for what some magisters did is exactly what Meredith did. Its simply false.

 

"They" also refers to the entire Altus ruling class, whose entire justification for their status is that they are the descedants of the dreamers who were favoured of by the old gods. Just because only a few could make the trip, it doesn't mean there were merely a few puppet magisters.

 

They just changed their story once the Imperial Chantry was established.

[Icy Magebane]

Sorry about that, it wasn't meant as a critique at you specially, you just had the biggest post about it. Given most peoples' apparent willingness to go along with unrestrained magical research, while in the same breath condemning slavery the entire position seemed hypocritical.

 

 

Well we know laws already only 'sort of' apply to Magisters and even if you outlawed slavery, that would either just shift the research underground. Or they'd find new sources like POWs or declare certain groups 'undesirable' to get a fresh supply. Why even open that door when there is almost invariably much more bad to be gained than good? 

The problem is that the door has been open for a few centuries now... the Altus, Laetans, and Magisters aren't giving up their authority, and the male priests within the Chantry aren't going to go back to being brothers.  At best, certain aspects of Tevinter can be reformed, but I don't see the mages ever giving up control over the nation... but of course, that means that slavery and blood magic will never go away either.  They are just too valuable to the Magister Lords, who are desperate for any advantage over their rivals so that they can remain in power... hm... yeah, I don't really know what to say about that.  xD  It's a pretty bad situation tbh...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

OK I'm not gonna convince you. I don't have time for your stretching. There is no codex which means they are not integrated in the story. Killing them or not killing does not affect anything the slightest and you bet they will not appear in the keep. Not to mention some of them were added in later patches (to enable the player to reach max level which is their sole purpose) and they never change the story with patches. Its something completely unrelated to game and a grind for exp and loot.

 

You don't think something really exists in the universe unless it has a codex? Most NPCs don't have one.

[The Elder King]

Lets just establish the fact that by "They" you mean the few puppet magisters who took direct orders from the old gods. This is precisely why the Imperial chantry clearly blames the old gods for blights, not magic. I couldn't agree more. Blaming all mages and magic for what some magisters did is exactly what Meredith did. Its simply false.

They weren't necessarily puppets. Also, I doubt the other magisters were against the Plan.
And no, i don't blame magic and mages. I blame Tevinter and the magisters. That doesn't mean that I want all magisters dead, but simply that they're probably responsible for thedas' biggest calamity.
'Dumat' didn't point a Gun at their heads. He tempted them, and They we're foolish enough to believe him when they had everything.

There you go with chantry lies again.

Corypheus was a Magister. He was one of the ones who tried to reach the 'golden city'. He became a darskpawn (quite different and more powerful and intelligent then the normal ones), who lead the darkspwan during the fire Blight.
I couldn't care less if the golden City was golden of already corrupted. It is howewer fact that some Magister become darskpawn when following the ritual that killed thousands of slaves, and one of them was present in the first blight. So it's very possible that Corypheus found Dumat and corrupted him.

[Lulupab]

Nah.

 

The Magisters turned Wardens met a Reaver who's own practices inspired their joining ritual.

 

Naraki or something like that.

 

It's covered in WOT.

Yep, Magisters met a group of people who drink the blood of their slain enemies but they never did so with darkspawn because they will either die or become like Ruck, the poor dwarf we meet in the deeproads in paragon of her kind quest. Tevinter's blood magic made it safe to drink, it removed the "becoming like Ruck part" but the death risk still remained.

[Lulupab]

You don't think something really exists in the universe unless it has a codex? Most NPCs don't have one.

 

But some of them were added so that the player can kill them and reach max level as explained in the patch notes! Because it was not possible to do so in previous patches. That's their sole purpose, extra exp and loo off the grid and lore. You'd think Fenris would react to tevinter slavers attacking him. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Nah.

 

The Magisters turned Wardens met a Reaver who's own practices inspired their joining ritual.

 

Naraki or something like that.

 

It's covered in WOT.

 

Aren't they the inhabitants of the Donarks or something? I don't think they are mentioned in WoT.

[The Elder King]

But some of them were added so that the player can kill them and reach max level as explained in the patch notes! Because it was not possible to do so in previous patches. That's their sole purpose, extra exp and loo off the grid and lore. You'd think Fenris would react to tevinter slavers attacking him.

DA2's max level is 50. I don't recall you can reach it with even all the dlc installed.
Also, weren't those groups present from the start?

[Drasanil]

The problem is that the door has been open for a few centuries now... the Altus, Laetans, and Magisters aren't giving up their authority, and the male priests within the Chantry aren't going to go back to being brothers.  At best, certain aspects of Tevinter can be reformed, but I don't see the mages ever giving up control over the nation... but of course, that means that slavery and blood magic will never go away either.  They are just too valuable to the Magister Lords, who are desperate for any advantage over their rivals so that they can remain in power... hm... yeah, I don't really know what to say about that.  xD  It's a pretty bad situation tbh...

 

Oh definitely, but even Tevinter maintains an official ban on blood magic, because even they know on some level that letting it get out of hand is almost an invariably bad idea.

 

I appreciate Tevinter for what it is, its just funny seeing some people take objection to one facet of Tevinter, slavery, while simultaneously lauding another with out seemingly realizing that what they are lauding is potentially so much worse than mere slavery on its own. [Not including you in that group since you seem to be coming at it with both eyes open.]

[Lulupab]

DA2's max level is 50. I don't recall you can reach it with even all the dlc installed.
Also, weren't those groups present from the start?

 

All female gang was added in future patches and it was joke because as you said max level was not possible ever after that. There are some stuff that affects it though, you can buy maker's breath potion which increase level by one on everyone ( can have 4 in total I think), also uploading a save with certain choices added extra quests which mean extra exp. With everything done you'd reach 48 or 49 I think.

[Lulupab]

"They" also refers to the entire Altus ruling class, whose entire justification for their status is that they are the descedants of the dreamers who were favoured of by the old gods. Just because only a few could make the trip, it doesn't mean there were merely a few puppet magisters.

 

They just changed their story once the Imperial Chantry was established.

 

No it does not refer to entire Altus class. Only the magisters, unless you want to blame every single nation in history for mistake of their leaders.