15969 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Since they weren't able to hold any of the lands they conquered outside of Minrathous, I'll mark it under Orlesian military ineptitude :>

The blight happened bro.

o.o good reason to stop fighting other humans.

[The Baconer]

That's quite a long time ago, the Imperium actually had the muscle to take territory back then.

 

Oh yeah, I don't even know what conflicts you're talking about in this case. Orlais and Tevinter haven't even gone to war since those times as far as I'm aware.

[The Baconer]

The blight happened bro.

o.o good reason to stop fighting other humans.

 

The Fourth Blight didn't begin until two years later after the Exalted March ended.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Fourth Blight didn't begin until two years later after the Exalted March ended.

How do you know there wasn't going to be a fifth.

[Drasanil]

How do you know there wasn't going to be a fifth.

 

Excuses, excuses, typical Orlaisian hofflenosh.

[The Baconer]

How do you know there wasn't going to be a fifth.

 

I don't even care if that was the plan. Not like the fifth time was going to be the charm.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't even care if that was the plan. Not like the fifth time was going to be the charm.

All I'm saying is they were sending armies north for decades, I think the cycle was ended mostly by the Blight and the unofficial alliance that followed then any fear of Tevinter.

[The Baconer]

All I'm saying is they were sending armies north for decades, I think the cycle was ended mostly by the Blight and the unofficial alliance that followed then any fear of Tevinter.

 

Doesn't matter whether they feared Tevinter or not, only that they lost and were sent packing.

[Master Warder Z_]

Doesn't matter whether they feared Tevinter or not, only that they lost and were sent packing.

Sent packing? That's a lot to take from a unspecific paragraph.

Do you know the multitudes of scenario that can prompt withdrawal?

[The Baconer]

Sent packing? That's a lot to take from a unspecific paragraph.

Do you know the multitudes of scenario that can prompt withdrawal?

 

In an invasion? Certainly not victory :>

[Master Warder Z_]

In an invasion? Certainly not victory :>

 

Indeed; but it also doesn't have to mean with any certainty, total defeat.

 

A Invasion is in any case a tricky and consuming thing to support...in the real world anyway.

 

If we were actually talking medieval warfare; a very, very common problem with supported military invasion during the time period was lacking a usable logistical basis to support it long term; espeically in the case a invasion happening away from allied trade routes and support infrastructure, i would apply that to Orlais in this situation as a probable outcome, but given the scarcity of detail Bioware employs in their writing who knows, it could have been the Divine called off the invasion because Andraste's birthday happened and she had a "vision" of a rose bud blooming.

[The Baconer]

Indeed; but it also doesn't have to mean with any certainty, total defeat.

 

No, just an effective defeat.

[Master Warder Z_]

No, just an effective defeat.

Or the prospect of one, or Orlais lacking the needed manpower to continue or a billion other scenarios.

[The Baconer]

Or the prospect of one, or Orlais lacking the needed manpower to continue or a billion other scenarios.

 

So, yes, an effective defeat, as we are confirming here. Would you rather mull over potential details of the defeat, or elaborate on some other supposed instance of Orlais handily defeating Tevinter? The liberation of Starkhaven, perhaps, though they did have help.

[Master Warder Z_]

So, yes, an effective defeat, as we are confirming here. Would you rather mull over potential details of the defeat, or elaborate on some other supposed instance of Orlais handily defeating Tevinter? The liberation of Starkhaven, perhaps, though they did have help.

 

No; i don't see the point.

 

Because what you'd label as a "effective" defeat i wouldn't. it didn't achieve much beyond a regional tactical victory.

 

If that.

 

Because to be honest, the fact retreat was even called would indicate to me something rather striking; there was enough of a force left to withdraw cohesively. That would also point towards Tevinter not successfully negating the Orlesian forces, You don't call a retreat officially for stragglers, you let them wander home, if it had been a "effective" defeat, one would assume one side would press for the benefits normally afford to the victor such as a requesting prisoner exchanges, formal cessation of hostility, etc.

 

Crud even the Crusades ended officially on a treaty, 

[The Baconer]

No; i don't see the point.

 

Because what you'd label as a "effective" defeat i wouldn't. it didn't achieve much beyond a regional tactical victory.

 

It's a defeat in the basic sense that Southern Chantry intended to invade Tevinter, destroy its incarnation of the Chantry, and bring the country under Orlesian Chantry law. It achieved none of these things. Tevinter, being on the defensive, managed to not only whether each march, but also repel the invading force and reclaim the lands that were taken from them. Effectively, it is a defeat for Orlais.

 

 

Because to be honest, the fact retreat was even called would indicate to me something rather striking; there was enough of a force left to withdraw cohesively. That would also point towards Tevinter not successfully negating the Orlesian forces,

 

Were they not dispersed from Tevinter entirely, I might have considered it.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's a defeat in the basic sense that Southern Chantry intended to invade Tevinter, destroy its incarnation of the Chantry, and bring the country under Orlesian Chantry law. It achieved none of these things. Tevinter, being on the defensive, managed to not only whether each march, but also repel the invading force and reclaim the lands that were taken from them. Effectively, it is a defeat for Orlais.

 

Hence why i'd label it a tactical victory; I didn't deny the failure of the invasion.

 

But i wouldn't label it more then that; Orlais remained a combat capable force which it demonstrated just two years later, and even in the aftermath of the blight decades later. Just from Immediate history it becomes clear Orlais's military infrastructure was not overly effected by the regional success of Tevinter during the blight, hence why i'd not label it anything close to a total victory in the sense that Orlais was negated as a power, or its military strength utterly shattered, or any other inane notion.

 

 

Were they not dispersed from Tevinter entirely, I might have considered it.

 

This is where a map of the movement of the front would come in handy.

[The Baconer]

Hence why i'd label it a tactical victory; I didn't deny the failure of the invasion.

 

But i wouldn't label it more then that; Orlais remained a combat capable force which it demonstrated just two years later, and even in the aftermath of the blight decades later. Just from Immediate history it becomes clear Orlais's military infrastructure was not overly effected by the regional success of Tevinter during the blight, hence why i'd not label it anything close to a total victory in the sense that Orlais was negated as a power, or its military strength utterly shattered, or any other inane notion.

 

 

This is where a map of the movement of the front would come in handy.

 

Agreed.

[Drasanil]

Hence why i'd label it a tactical victory; I didn't deny the failure of the invasion.

 

But i wouldn't label it more then that; Orlais remained a combat capable force which it demonstrated just two years later, and even in the aftermath of the blight decades later. Just from Immediate history it becomes clear Orlais's military infrastructure was not overly effected by the regional success of Tevinter during the blight, hence why i'd not label it anything close to a total victory in the sense that Orlais was negated as a power, or its military strength utterly shattered, or any other inane notion.

 

Orlais was barely skimmed by the fourth blight and even then only sent token forces to help fight it. It's hardly an indication of their relative strength at the time. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Orlais was barely skimmed by the fourth blight and even then only sent token forces to help fight it. It's hardly an indication of their relative strength at the time. 

 

Relative being what in this case? This is where Bioware's lack of knowledge on the numerics of militarism come to bite them hardest i believe, but it isn't a overly critical flaw in my eye, but one that definitely needs rectifying if only to make debates like this unneeded.

 

And following the aftermath of the next blight it basically conquered half of the Freemarches alongside Tevinter basically did the same to the other half.

 

And the second blight was Orlais's most notable and numerous recorded involvements in a Blight, save the third, It was Tevinter who only acted once itself was besieged in the Fourth Blight, but honestly Orlais has been a fairly influential party in defeating all blights save the fifth. 

[Drasanil]

Relative being what in this case? This is where Bioware's lack of knowledge on the numerics of militarism come to bite them hardest i believe, but it isn't a overly critical flaw in my eye, but one that definitely needs rectifying if only to make debates like this unneeded.

 

In this case specifically, I'd say relative to launching a fifth exalted march to try and take Tevinter again [like you hinted might have been a possibility]. If their forces hadn't been exhausted by the previous marches [because they were stated to have barely been affected by the blight], then they would have been in a position to resume their attempted conquests or at least take the other half of the Marches from Tevinter. It's possible they just decided to be frienemies, but it seems odd Orlais wouldn't have pressed its advantage further unless it wasn't really in a position to do so.  

[Master Warder Z_]

It's possible they just decided to be frienemies

 

That's what i decided given what Bioware has described in the lore to date.

 

It seems they were content to basically divide the world back in those days.

 

 

but it seems odd Orlais wouldn't have pressed its advantage further unless it wasn't really in a position to do so.  

 

Tell me about it.

 

Because they basically had been fighting a war off and on for seventy years by this point.

 

And considering its indicated that only the blight stopped more Marches i really do believe they stopped because of the Blight.

[Geth Supremacy]

I love the passion for 2nd place.  Keep it up guys.

[Uccio]

I can already see it. Tevinter and the Qunari fighting the greatest battle; incomes the Kossith smashing both their armies. Becomes the mayor antagonist of the plot.

 

 

*tears of blood*

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

I love the passion for 2nd place.  Keep it up guys.

Hello there, my favorite heathen.