15927 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

Okay, here's a general question about the Magisterium.   Seat can be passed down to your heir.   What if your only child is a non-mage?   Are they allowed to inherit or would they be passed over in favour of a distant relative with magic?   Or does the heredity seat become defunct and the Archon elevates an entirely new family to it?

[raging_monkey]

Id assume honestly it would depend on the clout of x house

[The Baconer]

I really want nothing major to do with Calpernia or Dorian or Maeveris... the Magisterium is not something I want as a major part of the the next DA 4 as rogues and warriors have no place. Sure, do I talk with Magisters? Or even representatives of the Magisterium itself? Yeah... great, but I don't want any part of the game to be about the Magisterium.

These stories are so painful sometimes... in the course of some ridiculously small span of time a nobody has the ear of the most powerful organizations of the world.

I find that premise more fantasy than magic and dragons.

Non-Mages had a place in the Magesterium during the Transfiguration. Maybe Tevinter needs another one.

[The Baconer]

Okay, here's a general question about the Magisterium. Seat can be passed down to your heir. What if your only child is a non-mage? Are they allowed to inherit or would they be passed over in favour of a distant relative with magic? Or does the heredity seat become defunct and the Archon elevates an entirely new family to it?

It would most likely fall to the Archon to select a new individual for that seat. It wouldn't necessarily be granting a seat to a different family, but the appointed individual would be able to pass it on to an heir of their choice.

[Bardox9]

The idea of Tevinter is better than the reality of it. Such could be said of most nations. The slave trade being the biggest stain. Although the alienages are not much better. Perpetual poverty is just another form of slavery IMO. While i don't approve of someone's magical abilities being the determining factor as to whether or not they should be in charge, I can understand the idea that (in a society of mages atleast) those with a greater understanding of magic should be the authority. Then there is the blood magic issue. My understanding of blood magic is similar to the Tevinter definition. Using your own life force is one thing, it's when you start killing people to further your own ends that you have crossed over to the dark side. Many Magisters, while they forbid the use of such magics, practice human/elf sacrifice to augment their powers to maintain their position or rise above their station.

 

Mages and non-mages living in harmony for the betterment of all. Great idea. The reality... less so.

[nightscrawl]

Okay, here's a general question about the Magisterium.   Seat can be passed down to your heir.   What if your only child is a non-mage?   Are they allowed to inherit or would they be passed over in favour of a distant relative with magic?   Or does the heredity seat become defunct and the Archon elevates an entirely new family to it?

 
Dorian is surprised that his father kept him as heir to his seat. Perhaps the seat-holder can appoint their own heir, regardless of blood. What if a magister's child was killed in some accident, or assassinated, or left the country? What if the magister just never had any children to begin with? What if the magister married later in life to a spouse who already has a child, formally adopted said child, and wants to appoint that child -- now part of the family -- as heir? There are any number of reasons why there might not be a direct descendant to take the seat.
 
I don't think Maevaris is likely to have children either, for the same reasons that Dorian is not -- she is interested in men, and furthermore does not have the anatomy for it, and doesn't seem of the mentality to impregnate a woman for that reason alone. So what happens to her seat?
 
Also, from WoT Vol. 2 we know that Felix was a weak (in power) mage who was interested in his own non-magical study, and Alexius seemed to fully support him in this. Perhaps Felix might not have even taken his father's seat, had he lived.
 
Given Alexius's attitude (despite his own father's disapproval) about his own marriage and his child, I've gathered that not every mage, or every mage family, adheres to the bloodlines and such tradition as strictly as Dorian's father, or the Pavus family. Each family will have their own priorities when it comes to such things. This may be one reason why Alexius and Halward were friends: Halward never saw Alexius as a political threat, or a threat to his family.
 
In the event of a sudden elimination -- the magister dies, but the current seat-heir does not want to take their place -- there might be a procedure in place for just such a contingency. Perhaps the hair can appoint a replacement, or perhaps, as Baconer suggests above, the Archon would appoint another person in the family.
 
I'm sure there are rules for such a circumstance, even if we don't know them. Tevinter is thousands of years old; they've had a lot of time to come up with rules for everything.

[Gervaise]

I have no doubt that the seat holder could nominate an heir, possibly officially adopt them to be sure of the matter.   Archons have certainly done that in the past; although it has caused trouble as well: Almadrius and Tidarion.    In that case Tidarion was only one of several apprentices that could potentially be a successor, but the Magisterium were still outraged that he should have taken on a low born mage of Planasene blood.   The end result after Tidarion did become his heir was a civil war that ultimately resulted in the Laetans class getting greater privileges: admission to the temples of the time and three seats on the Magisterium.    However, whatever trouble was caused, the person in question was still a mage.    The same is true for Maevaris, however much this outrages the sensibilities of the conservatives.

 

What I am wondering is how the others would view the seat holder confirming a non-mage as their heir.    You see, as Dorian says, technically there is no reason why a non-mage shouldn't be part of the Magisterium but in practice everyone is a mage.   Which is why I wondered if in fact they would block the appointment or whether the non-mage simply wouldn't survive long enough to take the seat.    After all, Felix's grandfather tried to have him assassinated because he was "barely more than a Soporati".   Now this could be just because of the shame of having such an ineffectual mage as part of the family but he had to be aware that just because Felix wasn't particularly talented, it could skip a generation and come out in his children, yet seemed to prefer the notion of getting rid of him altogether, when there was no "spare" available.  Alexius himself was unusual in that he was promoting better schooling and institutions of higher learning for the Soporati even before Felix was born, which I don't think generally was the case or he would have had more support.

 

This is where I get a bit confused about Tevinter; is it all about continuing the family line (certainly with the Altus) or is it purely about producing the best possible mage, in which case they cull the ones who don't come up to scratch.  If an Altus or Laetans family don't produce mages in the next generation, do they get demoted down to Soporati?

[nightscrawl]

This is where I get a bit confused about Tevinter; is it all about continuing the family line (certainly with the Altus) or is it purely about producing the best possible mage, in which case they cull the ones who don't come up to scratch.

I don't think it's correct to speak in absolutes when we have current examples of magisters who don't give a damn about any of that.

As I said, each family will have their own priority. Also, those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Those that care about such things may want to continue the family line while aiming to produce the best possible mage. If they can't produce the best mage, or get a dud, then they might just hope that the next generation will fare better.

 

If raw magical talent and mage-ness is all about genetics, then it comes down to dominant and recessive genes and how those express. If mage-ness is a recessive trait, the altus are breeding for that trait by breeding mages together. The more mages in a given bloodline, the higher are the chances your child will be a mage, but it is not guaranteed, particularly since you have to account for two people and both of their bloodlines. So, poor Felix could certainly have just been a dud, and his grandfather really had nothing to worry about as long as he was bred with the right woman -- we have the phrase that something "skips a generation" for a reason. Of course, at that point the problem then becomes whether another family would want to take a chance of mingling bloodlines with imperfect stock, or Maker forbid, a non-mage.

 

BUT, let's look at it another way. Let's say Dorian had been a non-mage. That might have hurt his marriage prospects, but Pavus is an old, influential name. Even if some of the more prominent families had turned down offers of marriage, that doesn't preclude other, lesser families from wanting to join up with the Pavus house. So Dorian marries a lesser candidate, has a mage child because he is still carrying the recessive mage gene, and the bloodline continues on.

 

There ARE alternatives when plans don't work out, and not every family will be of the mindset of Alexius's father and think it's the end of the word that their heir is a weak mage or a non-mage.

 

 

As for appointing an heir from outside the family, I have an example for that. Let's say that Dorian was a second son and that his older brother is expected to inherit his father's seat. That leaves nothing for Dorian. Since he was close with Alexius, I can see Alexius naming Dorian as his heir since Felix is a weak mage and interested in other things. Now, whether Dorian would be required to leave his own house and join with the Alexius house (probably likely) is another matter, as is the consideration of any sort of retribution on the part of house Pavus for stealing away one of their children. But I don't think such a thing is an improbable scenario; it's political machination at its highest for the betterment of a house.

 

Also, while such concerns aren't as big in the Dragon Age universe, Tevinter does seem like a more patriarchal society. It might be that a magister might prefer to give his seat to his son-in-law, rather than his own daughter. This may be more likely if said son-in-law is the second or third child of his own house, making it unlikely that he would inherit his own parent's seat.

[Medhia_Nox]

@The Baconer:  I didn't know that, and it would be interesting then if a non-mage basically broke the tradition and gained a seat on the Magisterium. 

 

I'm still not deeply interested in a story being about a member of the Magisterium.  What is it called?  Dragon Age:  Bureaucracy? 

 

And if you're made Archon... that would be even more laughable. 

 

I'm usually a mage player... but given my general disdain for DA mages and the fact that Tevinter is basically mage-central - I really think I need to play a non-mage for DA 4 (assuming we are Tevinter natives). 

[Sifr]

Non-Mages had a place in the Magesterium during the Transfiguration. Maybe Tevinter needs another one.

 

It might be a nice juxtaposition with how mages are potentially able to gain more political power in southern Thedas, to have it be possible for non-mages to end up gaining some degree of significant political power in Tevinter.

[The Baconer]

@The Baconer: I didn't know that, and it would be interesting then if a non-mage basically broke the tradition and gained a seat on the Magisterium.

I'm still not deeply interested in a story being about a member of the Magisterium. What is it called? Dragon Age: Bureaucracy?

And if you're made Archon... that would be even more laughable.

I'm usually a mage player... but given my general disdain for DA mages and the fact that Tevinter is basically mage-central - I really think I need to play a non-mage for DA 4 (assuming we are Tevinter natives).

Yeah, I would never expect taking a seat in the Magesterium regardless of class (at least not for any significant length of time in the plot), but I do forsee lots of colorful interaction with its members.

[Master Warder Z_]

It might be a nice juxtaposition with how mages are potentially able to gain more political power in southern Thedas, to have it be possible for non-mages to end up gaining some degree of significant political power in Tevinter.

 

*coughs* reenactment of Gladiator.

[Mistic]

What I am wondering is how the others would view the seat holder confirming a non-mage as their heir.    You see, as Dorian says, technically there is no reason why a non-mage shouldn't be part of the Magisterium but in practice everyone is a mage.   Which is why I wondered if in fact they would block the appointment or whether the non-mage simply wouldn't survive long enough to take the seat.

 

You may be probably right about that. As Dorian explains in DA:I, political assassination is a fairly common occurrence in Tevinter.

 

Also, I wouldn't expect much from some noble houses in the Imperium regarding logic and common sense. We talk as if noble houses in real life weren't incredibly insane about blood matters or considered unforgivable political sins things that look laughable from our perspective.

 

*coughs* reenactment of Gladiator.

 

It's not a far-fetched idea. It seems that Dwarven Provings were popular in Ancient Tevinter, and there's a Grand Proving Arena in Minrathous.

[The Baconer]

It's not a far-fetched idea. It seems that Dwarven Provings were popular in Ancient Tevinter, and there's a Grand Proving Arena in Minrathous.

It kind of is, and I'd rather a major plot point like that be more than "Oh... it's just Gladiator".

[Mistic]

It kind of is, and I'd rather a major plot point like that be more than "Oh... it's just Gladiator".

 

Me too. Still, can't say it couldn't happen, because the scenario allows it. I'd rather Bioware shows more originality than that, though.

[Sifr]

*coughs* reenactment of Gladiator.

 

Wait, how is that anything like the plot of Gladiator?

 

Unless you mean how Aurelius wanted to transition the Empire to a democracy again before getting murdered, but that still never happened by the end of the film and Maximus' plot was General to slave to gladiator to the grave... what are the parallels I'm missing here?

[Master Warder Z_]

Wait, how is that anything like the plot of Gladiator?

Unless you mean how Aurelius wanted to transition the Empire to a democracy again before getting murdered, but that still never happened by the end of the film and Maximus' plot was General to slave to gladiator to the grave... what are the parallels I'm missing here?

Literally everyone else got it but you but final boss fight in the arena with someone very important.

[Sifr]

Literally everyone else got it but you but final boss fight in the arena with someone very important.

 

Which has nothing to do with what I was suggesting in the first place, that the plot could be about a non-mage ending up in a position of political power, a substantial shift in dynamic in a nation that is built on being a magocracy.

 

Where did you get the Gladiator-esque, final fight to the death with an important figure in an arena from that?

 

[nightscrawl]

^ I believe the suggestion is that the new PC would do battle in the Proving Arena against the Archon and come into power in that way. One could also use the example of dueling Loghain in the Landsmeet.

 

I think it's a terrible idea. I also don't want my PC to heavily influence a sea change in Tevinter in any way. I wouldn't be averse to having the same influence as Anders had over the mage/templar war. He provided a spark (literally), but was not a leader and did not accomplish anything grand other than giving a push in a particular direction. For me, the next game would end with the stirrings of a rebellion or a slave revolt, with my PC having nothing to do with it.

 

I didn't even like the Landsmeet decision resting with my Warden, but I could look at that as an extreme case. The same can be said of the Orzammar decision.

[Sifr]

^ I believe the suggestion is that the new PC would do battle in the Proving Arena against the Archon and come into power in that way. One could also use the example of dueling Loghain in the Landsmeet.

 

I think it's a terrible idea. I also don't want my PC to heavily influence a sea change in Tevinter in any way. I wouldn't be averse to having the same influence as Anders had over the mage/templar war. He provided a spark (literally), but was not a leader and did not accomplish anything grand other than giving a push in a particular direction. For me, the next game would end with the stirrings of a rebellion or a slave revolt, with my PC having nothing to do with it.

 

I didn't even like the Landsmeet decision resting with my Warden, but I could look at that as an extreme case. The same can be said of the Orzammar decision.

 

Ah, yeah that does seem a bit ridiculous as a way in which a non-mage would gain power in Tevinter, because you'd imagine that if a non-mage killed the Archon and declared themselves the new ruler, they'd be instantly set on fire by half the Magisterium in attendance.

 

The fight against Loghain in Origins was in-character for how Ferelden operates as a nation. The Fereldans are the descendants of barbarian tribes who often squabbled and warred against themselves (and often still do), so them having a legal system that includes trial by combat made sense. In Inquisition we even see that the Avvar, very distant cousins, have very much the same mentality when it comes how they manage disputes.

 

Tevinter letting the fate of their nation be settled in an arena just seems too uncivilised for them.

[nightscrawl]

... they'd be instantly set on fire by half the Magisterium in attendance.

Ahaha... I'd kinda like to see this now!

[Sifr]

Ahaha... I'd kinda like to see this now!

 

That could also make for a fun codex entry for a past Archon, something along the lines of;

 

"Archon Enarius" has the distinction of having holding the title for the shortest amount of time in the Imperium's history, having held the position for less than an hour, before it was discovered he was a conman impersonating the deceased son of a Fade-addled Magister, had no magical ability and his staff was an old garden implement that had been hastily painted.

 

He was promptly set on fire by half of the Magisterium with such ferocity that to this day, a faint silhouette can still be seen burned into the far wall of the council chambers as a permanent reminder of his folly.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Which has nothing to do with what I was suggesting in the first place, that the plot could be about a non-mage ending up in a position of political power, a substantial shift in dynamic in a nation that is built on being a magocracy.

 

Where did you get the Gladiator-esque, final fight to the death with an important figure in an arena from that?

 

 

Because I presume that trial by combat would be suit the role of a boss battle for a video game dynamic? I mean in every other Bioware scenario where the PC takes power at the conclusion? They kill who they are replacing, Malak, Sun Li, etc. Admittedly I doubt it would be the Archon, but there is nothing to say that you couldn't challenge a Magister who was granted rule of your seat because you weren't born a mage, and hell if you kill him, maybe the decision could be overturned and it would certainly be a moment of silence in the Imperium where you have for the first time, in several centuries a non mage in a position of actual authority.

 

It probably wouldn't last last long, but by then you probably would have accumulated enough support to basically claim your place. So it would probably be one of those scenarios where the losing party isn't happy about the outcome but has to accept it for the immediate future. Besides I can hardly think of a better story for the normal folks of the Imperium, a noble who had birthright stolen from him by his lack of magic, but instead of becoming the disowned son of a now penniless noble house he took up a sword and forced his claim to the highest levels of the Imperium.

 

And it ultimately culminates in his triumph over the mage who had sought to rob him. The appointed Magister, the foil to our protagonist.

 

Its classical comedic storytelling, not original by any stretch of the imagination but Bioware could and has done worse arcs in their history.

 

Like I said everyone else seemed to get the general idea of what I intended just from a single sentence.

[Gervaise]

Based on all the previous evidence of the way things are done in Tevinter, you do not just kill off the Archon and assume his position without substantial support from other members of the Magisterium or at least the nobility, either Altus or Laetans.  So the non-mage is already going to be at a serious disadvantage because I really can't see anyone supporting them.    Hessarian got away with the Transfiguration because of the bad feeling towards the old gods and their priesthood, which was still largely supported by the Altus families.   Thus he was able to unite the lower orders behind him and then, conveniently, some Altus Magisters started seeing visions of Andraste that encouraged them to get behind him as well.   They then purged the Senate of their political rivals, who just so happened to be the supporters of the old religion.   Anybody currently trying to attempt the same is going to run into the problem that people seem quite happy with the state religion and the Black Divine hold just as much power as the Archon, so good luck with trying to hold on to your position by going up against him.

 

I think there are likely to be slave revolts across Tevinter in the next instalment that will be incited by Qunari agents simultaneous their invasion, so local forces will be tied up in quelling their own revolts and thus not able to go to the aid of others.   The only way this could benefit a non-mage Tevinter citizen is if they managed to take control of the slave rebellion away from the Qunari and thus have a large slave force to back them up.   You'd still need to defeat the Qunari before you did anything else because supporting them would not be in your interests.

[AgeOfDragons]

Oh yeah that's right its time to appreciate the greatest empire of Thedas and who do we thank for this thread? NextArishok308!

So let's discuss what makes Tevinter the greatest nation shall we?

* The Imperium was the first united civilization of humans.

* The Imperium crushed those weaklings called elves (because they were stupid enough to destroy themselves) and destroyed their pathetic civilization with great fury.

*They made elves their slaves for milennia and to this day it still stands.

*They teamed up with the Bro race the Dwarves!

* The Imperium conquer all of the known world.

*The Imperium created the Blights!

*The Imperium burned that witch Andraste!

*Tevinter called out the bullshit that was the Orlesian Chantry's Dogma and despite getting 4 Exalted Marches against them they won by unleashing that which the White Chantry vilifies... MAGIC!

*The Imperium is the only thing holding those wretched ox-men at bay.

*Also being a mage there is glorious, you can go to the Circle if you want, Templars are just puppets and if you play smart you can be a Magister in the future.

*Being a Magister is the greatest thing a Tevinter can accomplish. You become the Elite of the Elite, your power unrivaled of course which such great power comes the need to defend it from other rivals and ambicious apprentices but that is simply part of the job!

*Don't want to be a Magister? That's fine because you could potentially become the Imperial Archon, the supreme ruler of Tevinter and who all loyal servants of Tevinter kneel to! Archons are chosen from non-magister ranks so if you're lucky enough to become the Archon's apprentice well that would be great for you!

*Feeling a bit religious? Don't worry as a mage you can join the Imperial Chantry the only good chantry in all of Thedas. The barbarians and lesser nations condone our Chantry as heresy but ours is the truest of religions. You can even be the Divine as a mage!

Of course some heretics would say that Tevinter is terrible, cruel and unforgiving in which I say they're right. Tevinter is no summer vacation, it is a place where the strong rule and the weak serve, if you're weak you will get roll on by your betters even if you are a mage, Tevinter doesn't abide for weakness and neither should you dear reader.

Now come embrace Tevinter.

And If you're not convinced yet look at the awesomeness that is Tevinter:

Spoiler

Still not convinced? We have this hottie right here 100% Tevinter!

Spoiler

The Elite of the Imperium:
Imperial Archon: RobRam10
Imperial Divine: Daerog
High Priest of the Gods: LordSaren101
Grand Archivist of Minranthous: Tevinter Rose
Magister-General: TheDarkKnightReturns
The Magisterium: Loyal Tevinter, Tevinter Soldier , Drasanil, Ukki, The Ascendant, KainD, MagisterMaximus, Altus C, Eluvianus Rex, Lyon the Impaler, SomeoneStoleMyName, Jaronking, Augustei, Haha365, Magister Caedus, Pierce Miller.
First Enchanter: raging_monkey
Enchanter: The Baconer

Allies of the Imperium:
Commander Aeduncan
The Paragon Orin

Enemies of the Imperium:
You know who you are heretics!

So who is everyone in that first picture? I can't get a good view of it.