15927 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

^(Warder) That would be pretty interesting, I admit, especially in that it would avoid the pitfalls of letting a PC become Archon. My own idea for alliance-based regime changes would be (fanwank incoming): 

 

- Lucerni ending: Tempered reforms. Non-mages are granted seats in the Mgaesterium and among the priesthood. Slavery may not be abolished, but laws and conduct surrounding it will be reworked, focusing on the application of contract slavery and granting full citizenship to Liberati. Efforts are made to improve relations with the south and reconcile the two Chantries. The full extent of these reforms, and their success, will be affected in many ways by the actions of the player. 

 

- Bad ending: Status-quo reinforced. Arrangements are made between the Player Character and the dominant Altus houses in order to preserve Tevinter as it is. 

 

- Bad-bad ending: Qunari

 

- "True" revolution ending: A total coup is executed in order to place a new faction in control. This group is the most overtly progressive: slavery is abolished, non-mages are eligible for every position within government and the Chantry, the most prevailing corruptions within the Magesterium are more vigorously sought out and excised. The trade-off: the revolutionary movement is steeped in religious fanaticism, and militant nationalism. The "New Transfiguration" is merciless and bloody, with most of the Altus houses being purged regardless of their crimes. The southern Chantry is regarded with open hostility, amid rising tensions with Orlais and beyond. Should Tevinter survive this transitional period (again, heavily affected by the efforts of the PC), it will arise stronger than ever, with its societal reforms being the most ideal on paper. However, it will be up to the player to assess if this is really a "good" thing within the greater context of Thedas. 

[Mistic]

I also don't want my PC to heavily influence a sea change in Tevinter in any way. I wouldn't be averse to having the same influence as Anders had over the mage/templar war. He provided a spark (literally), but was not a leader and did not accomplish anything grand other than giving a push in a particular direction. For me, the next game would end with the stirrings of a rebellion or a slave revolt, with my PC having nothing to do with it.

 

So, another Hawke? I'm not sure I like the idea, considering the precedents

 

I, for one, prefer the idea of the PC becoming the Archon at the end of the game, actually. Blame it on my reading so much Roman and Byzantine history. Maybe overpowered protagonists are the norm and a change would be nice, but you don't find many protagonists who become rulers either. Not even the Warden or the Inquisitor have reached that far.

[Sifr]

Like I said everyone else seemed to get the general idea of what I intended just from a single sentence.

 

Aye, but my confusion was because the sentence I had begun with, about a massive paradigm shift in Tevinter politics towards non-mages, when applied to the plot of Gladiator were such vastly different that you might as well have been making a non sequitur about shoes.

 

(Although trial by snazzy shoes would be fun to see, but it'd probably be more of an Orlesian thing than Tevinter)

 

I do agree that a final boss battle is par for the course here, but when it comes to gaining some kind of power in Tevinter (especially for non-mages), I'd say that plot thread should come to fruition somewhere in the second act, such as when the Inquisitor was declared or Hawke became Champion. They'd been given a title and recognition for their deeds, but that didn't mean they were allowed to kick back afterwards when there was work to be done and a crisis to solve.

 

It might ultimately be better for our protagonist to be the second-in-command if they were to be involved in some kind of political movement, since you'd imagine that no Tevinter would accept a non-mage, Qunari, Dwarf or Elf in such a powerful position. Even the Inquisitor was met with some resistance in the south and it was mostly because of rumours of divine assistance that people were willing to accept them, so the more traditional Tevinter would definitely not be so open-minded when it came to something like that happening in their own borders.

[Mistic]

It might ultimately be better for our protagonist to be the second-in-command if they were to be involved in some kind of political movement, since you'd imagine that no Tevinter would accept a non-mage, Qunari, Dwarf or Elf in such a powerful position. Even the Inquisitor was met with some resistance in the south and it was mostly because of rumours of divine assistance that people were willing to accept them, so the more traditional Tevinter would definitely not be so open-minded when it came to something like that happening in their own borders.

 

True, but remember that Tevinter also boasts a supposedly meritocratic stance. Pure lip service in practice, as Fenris and Dorian pointed out, but they like to sell the idea that anyone can become powerful. Like how in theory non-mages can be Magisters, and probably the same could be said about the Archon.

 

The thing is, Tevinter is going to be in a very delicate situation in the next game, with the Qunari invading. Roman and Byzantine history is full of examples in which military leaders from the lowest origins could rise to the imperial throne in times of crisis. That could be used it here too.

 

Also, if it is a non-mage, it could be a reverse mirror of what happened in the past. Although the separation of the Black and White Chantries in 3:87 is considered sometimes the beginning of mages controlling Tevinter politics again, in reality it wasn't until the election of Nomaran as Archon in 7:34 that restrictions against mages in politics were lifted. The process to return the country to a full-fledged magocracy ended around 8:11 (yes, despite common perception, the current oppressive magocratic rule is fairly recent), and the timing conveniently coincides with the last (and greatest) push in the Qunari Wars. It's not hard to imagine that the menace of the Qun made Tevinters embrace magocracy as the solution. The opposite could happen for similar reasons.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

True, but remember that Tevinter also boasts a supposedly meritocratic stance. Pure lip service in practice, as Fenris and Dorian pointed out, but they like to sell the idea that anyone can become powerful. Like how in theory non-mages can be Magisters, and probably the same could be said about the Archon.

 

The thing is, Tevinter is going to be in a very delicate situation in the next game, with the Qunari invading. Roman and Byzantine history is full of examples in which military leaders from the lowest origins could rise to the imperial throne in times of crisis. That could be used it here too.

 

Also, if it is a non-mage, it could be a reverse mirror of what happened in the past. Although the separation of the Black and White Chantries in 3:87 is considered sometimes the beginning of mages controlling Tevinter politics again, in reality it wasn't until the election of Nomaran as Archon in 7:34 that restrictions against mages in politics were lifted. The process to return the country to a full-fledged magocracy ended around 8:11 (yes, despite common perception, the current oppressive magocratic rule is fairly recent), and the timing conveniently coincides with the last (and greatest) push in the Qunari Wars. It's not hard to imagine that the menace of the Qun made Tevinters embrace magocracy as the solution. The opposite could happen for similar reasons.

 

Magic, when not nerfed by gameplay reasons, is a true storybreaker power in Thedas.

 

Corypheus, after losing the political and military means to control the world, resorted to ancient magic in the hopes of crushing the world afoot with it and for all intents and purposes it could have worked.

 

Solas changed the very fabric of reality when he created the Veil, by far and large the greatest magical feat of all time, so a sufficiently powerful and knowledgeable mage can bend the entire world to his will.

 

On topic, when the Qunari invaded, the regular forces of Tevinter were minced meat against a numerically and technologically superior faction and they got their assess kicked until only Minrathous was left unconquered.

 

Desperate to turn the tides they basically removed the limiter on their greatest resource, a bucket load of extremely talented mages. Unsurprisingly, the mages did what they do best and blew up the Qunari army back to the sea.

 

However, once you give someone greater freedoms, it's basically impossible to take those away without major violence. Since the mages had become celebrities who could wreck major havoc if attacked and the government was too weakened to reign them in, they basically seized power in a country which their influence was no longer kept in check.

 

Not only this change allowed the Imperium to survive but it also began reverting their decline, as mages became more powerful, so did the imperial military and new and more powerful magics began to be researched again such as Time Magic.

 

Fenris stated that despite being a far match from the Qunari in terms of raw military power, the Imperium had recovered a significant portion of their power and influence to the point they threatened all other nations of Thedas.

 

Indeed, the Venatori, despite being a terrorist organization not officially endorsed by the government and the regular military, had enough strenght and numbers to fight the entire Orlesian army when combined with either the Southern mages or the Red Lyrium Templars.

 

The only reason the Imperium was thrown into chaos is because Solas, who is basically a physical god, freed a huge portion of it's slaves thus wrecking the economy which was followed by an all out Qunari invasion.

 

If it wasn't for Solas, Tevinter would have easily returned to full power in a century and put the entire world in check with a massive army of mages.

 

Anyhow, that's why the next protagonist comes from Tevinter, he or she will become either the redeemer of the bastion of human civilization or the tyrant whose armies will bring the imperium to a new age of supremacy.

 

By far and large, don't expect any option to support the Qunari, Bioware made it abundantly clear that they will be antagonistic in the next games and they certainly don't have the time or the patience to write a divergent story in which the Qun wins.

[Gervaise]

Please would you reference where you got the late date for the lifting of restrictions on mages being allowed to rule in Tevinter as I can't find it anywhere in the source books.   Seems odd to me that you have a Black Divine and a schism with the south for (allegedly) altering the Chant in favour of mages and then wait another 450 odd years before the Altus take back control.

 

So far as I am aware the Venatori weren't powerful enough to challenge the Orlesian army with the support of either southern mages or red Templars.   When they are attacking Haven it is just the Inquisition.   When they attack an Orlais weakened by civil war in the dark future, they are bolstered by an army of demons.   So whilst magic did tip the balance, since it was the Grey Wardens using blood magic to bind the demons, the Venatori did not have sufficient strength without them.   This is why we basically annihilate them in the Arbor Wilds even with their Mage/Templar forces and rogue Grey Wardens.

 

Where does it say that Solas freed a load of slaves?   The epilogue only talks about his effect on southern Thedas, without any reference to the north.    Solas does not necessarily have to get involved in any slave rebellions in the north because the Qunari have infiltrated their ranks with their agents; it is said they even encourage their new recruits to sell themselves back into slavery in order to be back in the best position to assist the Qun when they invade.    Solas hates the Qun even more than he hates Tevinter, so he would probably leave things alone so he doesn't unduly upset the balance of power.   He hoped the Qun would attack Tevinter because that would focus everyone's attention on that rather than the rather more important problem of stopping him.    Also it would take the heat off the south because he has this quaint notion that it is all right to kill everyone if he has allowed them a bit of peace first.

 

The Imperium is unstable because they are so involved in fighting for power among themselves, particularly as they have become complaisant with the Qunari having held off invading the mainland for the last 30 years.  They did this at the recommendation of the current Arishok, back with he was just Sten, that they should concentrate on intelligence gathering and placing agents in strategic positions before attempting another invasion.  Alexius levelled the criticism at them that they had wasted so much resources on the conflict on Seheron and had been neglecting important things such as the education of the young.   The fabric of their empire is falling apart.    Their ongoing war with the Qunari is what had contributed to their decline because so many resources were taken up with it.   So even without Solas the Imperium would not have easily returned to full power within a century.

[The Ascendant]

What classes would you like to see for the Tevinter mages? For me, I would like the introduction of class specific and specialist specific content, considering that classicism and race relations are extremely divisive in Tevinter, to say nothing of the issues in regards to how mages and religion is handled by the Imperium. I would also like to see new specs, as I am forming a few ideas in my head but I need time to figure it out.

[raging_monkey]

Dual classing would be nice

[Mistic]

Please would you reference where you got the late date for the lifting of restrictions on mages being allowed to rule in Tevinter as I can't find it anywhere in the source books.   Seems odd to me that you have a Black Divine and a schism with the south for (allegedly) altering the Chant in favour of mages and then wait another 450 odd years before the Altus take back control.

 

Of course. The dates are in the codex entry for the Imperial Chantry (the 8:11 part is the date in which the entry was written):

http://dragonage.wik...mperial_Chantry

 

It seems odd, indeed, but only because the history of Tevinter is more complicated than the vision of it we have in-game. For example, WoT says that the return of the Altus to power began thanks to "the long-standing association in Tevinter culture between the Altus and spiritual authority", which allowed them to start gaining positions and influence in the Imperial Chantry. Given that, according to the codex entry, they had limitations to get posts in politics, it means that for a time the best way for mages to get official recognition was joining the priesthood.

 

The Imperial Chantry was probably more in-check when the Archon was also the head of the Chantry. Ironically, the Archon's role was reduced to a ceremonial position in an effort to appease the Orlesian Chantry (WoT, p124), but it didn't work.

 

What classes would you like to see for the Tevinter mages? For me, I would like the introduction of class specific and specialist specific content, considering that classicism and race relations are extremely divisive in Tevinter, to say nothing of the issues in regards to how mages and religion is handled by the Imperium. I would also like to see new classes, as I am forming a few ideas in my head but I need time to figure it out.

 

Let's be honest, it will be very disappointing if in a game set in Tevinter there isn't a blood mage specialization.

[The Ascendant]

Here are my ideas for class specialisations. With each class you join a corresponding order,group or society for exclusive missions and affect the story
Warriors:Magekiller(like Marius from the comics), Gladiator and Fog Warrior.
Rogues:Antivan Crow (trained by Zevran), Bounty Hunter and Spy.
Mages: Blood Mages, Battle Mage(Tevinter Arcane Warriors) and Possessed(Mages possessed by friendly spirits in a pact of mutually beneficial alliance, mages get power and a better understanding of the Fade, the spirit gets to experience the mortal world)

[Mistic]

Here are my ideas for class specialisations. With each class you join a corresponding order,group or society for exclusive missions and affect the story
Warriors:Magekiller(like Marius from the comics), Gladiator and Fog Warrior.
Rogues:Antivan Crow (trained by Zevran), Bounty Hunter and Spy.
Mages: Blood Mages, Battle Mage(Tevinter Arcane Warriors) and Possessed(Mages possessed by friendly spirits in a pact of mutually beneficial alliance, mages get power and a better understanding of the Fade, the spirit gets to experience the mortal world)

 

I see. The idea of a "Mage Killer" specialization sounds nice, but wouldn't it be better for rogues? I would add Templars for warriors, since there are Templars in Tevinter too.

[The Ascendant]

I see. The idea of a "Mage Killer" specialization sounds nice, but wouldn't it be better for rogues? I would add Templars for warriors, since there are Templars in Tevinter too.

Imperial Templars have none of the abilities that southern ones have. They are glorified guards as all the Lyrium goes to the mages. A magekiller is a Tevinter anti mage mundane. As seen in the comic, they are very effective in spite of that.
I think that class and specialist exclusive content will help make the game more engaging and help establish your character and their place in the world.

[Gervaise]

The odd thing about the lore that we get in the codex doesn't seem to agree with the lore we get in the source books, even though you assume they were written around the same time.  Now the odd thing is that WoT1 say that Archons came from the ranks of the Magisterium until the Black Age, when the practice was banned and the Archon could come from neither the Clergy nor the Magisterium.   So it seems it could have been entirely possible for the Archon to have been a Soporati throughout the period until 7:34 but it seems unlikely that the Magisterium didn't in fact have Magisters in it until that point, particularly considering the clergy had been largely been taken over by the Altus since the appointing of the first Black Divine.    It is also possible that having a Magister from the ranks of senior enchanters of each Circle of Magi didn't occur until that date.    The Imperial Chantry has a much greater direct role in government than the southern one does; since it does have seats in the Magisterium, so while it is possible that Tevinter maintained the pretence that mages did not rule until the election of the Archon in 7:34 the reality is that they resumed control through the Imperial Chantry even before the break with the southern Chantry and Soporati had been side lined to lower ranks of the clergy and thus could not gain seats on the Magisterium through this path.

[Master Warder Z_]

The odd thing about the lore that we get in the codex doesn't seem to agree with the lore we get in the source books, even though you assume they were written around the same time.  Now the odd thing is that WoT1 say that Archons came from the ranks of the Magisterium until the Black Age, when the practice was banned and the Archon could come from neither the Clergy nor the Magisterium.   So it seems it could have been entirely possible for the Archon to have been a Soporati throughout the period until 7:34 but it seems unlikely that the Magisterium didn't in fact have Magisters in it until that point, particularly considering the clergy had been largely been taken over by the Altus since the appointing of the first Black Divine.    It is also possible that having a Magister from the ranks of senior enchanters of each Circle of Magi didn't occur until that date.    The Imperial Chantry has a much greater direct role in government than the southern one does; since it does have seats in the Magisterium, so while it is possible that Tevinter maintained the pretence that mages did not rule until the election of the Archon in 7:34 the reality is that they resumed control through the Imperial Chantry even before the break with the southern Chantry and Soporati had been side lined to lower ranks of the clergy and thus could not gain seats on the Magisterium through this path.

 

It could be that Bioware just forgot its own lore again when publishing new material.

[Mistic]

The odd thing about the lore that we get in the codex doesn't seem to agree with the lore we get in the source books, even though you assume they were written around the same time.  Now the odd thing is that WoT1 say that Archons came from the ranks of the Magisterium until the Black Age, when the practice was banned and the Archon could come from neither the Clergy nor the Magisterium.   So it seems it could have been entirely possible for the Archon to have been a Soporati throughout the period until 7:34 but it seems unlikely that the Magisterium didn't in fact have Magisters in it until that point, particularly considering the clergy had been largely been taken over by the Altus since the appointing of the first Black Divine.    It is also possible that having a Magister from the ranks of senior enchanters of each Circle of Magi didn't occur until that date.    The Imperial Chantry has a much greater direct role in government than the southern one does; since it does have seats in the Magisterium, so while it is possible that Tevinter maintained the pretence that mages did not rule until the election of the Archon in 7:34 the reality is that they resumed control through the Imperial Chantry even before the break with the southern Chantry and Soporati had been side lined to lower ranks of the clergy and thus could not gain seats on the Magisterium through this path.

 

In theory, Tevinter has checks and balances between very different powers. The Archon is the executive branch, the Magisterium the legislative branch, the Circles govern magic and the Chantry governs religion. In theory, every position except that of member of the Circle (for obvious reasons) should be open to non-mages. Dorian pretty much says so of Magisters and we know it happened in the Imperial Chantry in the past.

 

The "magocracy" part in Tevinter, according to the lore we have know, suggests that the real problem is that the Circles (which, again, in theory are only one of the 4 main powers in Tevinter), have regained their monopoly in politics.

 

Ok, it's true that most places in the Magisterium were still in the hands of mages, that mages soon became the most influential in the Chantry and nothing suggests Archons stopped being mages, but probably there was still the pretension they were separated ruling bodies. As you say, what happened in 7:34 is likely that they made official what everyone knew: that the powerful people in every organization are one and the same, and they aren't pretending otherwise anymore.

 

It could be that Bioware just forgot its own lore again when publishing new material.

 

Probably the real answer. Still, for now we have to work with what we have.

[nightscrawl]

Let's be honest, it will be very disappointing if in a game set in Tevinter there isn't a blood mage specialization.

Even though I don't use blood spec on my mages, I completely agree. But I also think they need to really make it significant. The DAO "I like you so I'll teach you my abilities; *zap* there you are" from the followers, or random books, was a bit silly**. DA2 made no effort whatsoever. DAI was a step in the right direction, but as I mentioned in this thread, the followers having the same specs was sometimes odd.

If we do go to Tevinter in DA4, I do think that blood should make a return as a mage spec, but that it also needs to be given its due in the story as well. Not only should it be significant if the player has it and uses it -- a character like Dorian should remark negatively -- but we also really to get more into the mind control aspects of it, which are the most dangerous part of the whole thing and have been given short-shrift until this point.

 

Unfortunately, the dev mentality is likely that they will want all of the specs to have an equal weight, which is understandable from a developer viewpoint, but also consequently means that blood will not have available some of the resources to make it greatly significant, as those have to be parceled out to the other specs.

 

 

 

** Sadly, the two more interesting spec acquisitions were mage only: blood and arcane warrior.

[Mistic]

The DAO "I like you so I'll teach you my abilities; *zap* there you are" from the followers, or random books, was a bit silly**. DA2 made no effort whatsoever. DAI was a step in the right direction, but as I mentioned in this thread, the followers having the same specs was sometimes odd.

If we do go to Tevinter in DA4, I do think that blood should make a return as a mage spec, but that it also needs to be given its due in the story as well. Not only should it be significant if the player has it and uses it -- a character like Dorian should remark negatively -- but we also really to get more into the mind control aspects of it, which are the most dangerous part of the whole thing and have been given short-shrift until this point.

 

Unfortunately, the dev mentality is likely that they will want all of the specs to have an equal weight, which is understandable from a developer viewpoint, but also consequently means that blood will not have available some of the resources to make it greatly significant, as those have to be parceled out to the other specs.

 

True, I also agree that DA:I was a step in the right direction. Trainers that provide different views on the specilizations (and someow justify how the PC learns them), and there was also some reactivity. I remember that Cole had different reactions to different mage specializations, and didn't Cassandra mention something if you became a Necromancer?

 

Ironically, if there's a place where you can find books or trainers to become a blood mage, that's Tevinter. No demons required.

 

And yes, companions having the same specializations sometimes amde no sense. In that regard, I think DA2 had the right idea: customized specializations fo reach companion, sometimes familiar, but always with a different flavour.

 

Mm, true, blood magic could be explored more. And not just mind control. That has to be the feature that scares more people, but there's another one hardly explored by PCs although fairly common in NPCs: demon summoning. I can't count how many mages use blood magic to summon demons in-game.

[Gervaise]

What they at least need to do with regard to blood magic is have an enemy that actually uses every aspect of it, to the extent that they are actually able to take over your companions.   I remember in Baldurs Gate 2 with the vampires it got really difficult at times because whilst you could get certain items to shield you from the effects of their domination powers, there weren't enough to go round and the spells that the priest character could cast, only lasted so long.   Then there was the part where the chief vampire takes over your love one and gets them to attack you and you have no option but to kill them.   That really got me going emotionally.  Well, that is the sort of thing the top Tevinter blood mages should be capable of.    It is what made the Venatori so disappointing as adversaries because they were meant to all be these Tevinter mage supremists who should have had no scruples about using blood magic and thus be able to cause you real trouble when working together en mass as they often were but most of them were either regular mages or the equally lame spell binder which I found no real challenge at all.   The only one using mind control was Erimond on the Grey Wardens and that was as much Corypheus' blight influence as it was blood magic.

[Mistic]

What they at least need to do with regard to blood magic is have an enemy that actually uses every aspect of it, to the extent that they are actually able to take over your companions.   I remember in Baldurs Gate 2 with the vampires it got really difficult at times because whilst you could get certain items to shield you from the effects of their domination powers, there weren't enough to go round and the spells that the priest character could cast, only lasted so long.   Then there was the part where the chief vampire takes over your love one and gets them to attack you and you have no option but to kill them.

 

That could be a great idea. Of course, if it's in combat it wouldn't be so dramatic, since a fallen party member can be revived instantly, but it could make the battles more interesting if suddenly your carefully built tank starts tanking against you or your "nuke them from orbit" mage throws a rain of fire on your head.

 

Of course, being able to do the same to the enemy would be very satisfying

[Milan92]

I just had a thought regarding the Divine of Tevinter. I kinda hope he's the Rodrigo Borgia of Thedas.

[Heimdall]

Just a note about the Tevinter government, the Magisterium is just one house of the Imperial Senate. There is another entirely soporati house but it is virtually powerless in the modern Imperium.

Dorian mentioned it, I believe.

[nightscrawl]

Just a note about the Tevinter government, the Magisterium is just one house of the Imperial Senate. There is another entirely soporati house but it is virtually powerless in the modern Imperium.

Dorian mentioned it, I believe.

 

Dorian doesn't say that the lower house is entirely soporati. He only calls the Magisterium the "upper house of the Imperial Senate," and further expounds on its members, but doesn't go into who all is a part of the lower house.

[Heimdall]

Dorian doesn't say that the lower house is entirely soporati. He only calls the Magisterium the "upper house of the Imperial Senate," and further expounds on its members, but doesn't go into who all is a part of the lower house.

Hm, I might have misremembered that conversation. It was my impression that this house was non-Mage and might have held far more political power before the Altus recovered.

[nightscrawl]

^ It could be in the lore books, so you absorbed it and your brain simply insert it into the Dorian conversation. I haven't read them thoroughly to be able to say whether or not that is the case.

[Heimdall]

^ It could be in the lore books, so you absorbed it and your brain simply insert it into the Dorian conversation. I haven't read them thoroughly to be able to say whether or not that is the case.

I don't have my copy on hand so I can't check *shrug*

I might have just have thought it was implied. Magisterium being Altus dominated with one or two Laetan magisters, all mages, which leaves the other house as... something-not-that. That a non-Mage political body might exist actually gives me hope for possible reformation in Tevinter. (More than I have for reformation of Qunari anyway...)