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The Tevinter Imperium support thread- "Tevinter is coming"


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#12326
Mistic

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I don't have my copy on hand so I can't check *shrug*

I might have just have thought it was implied. Magisterium being Altus dominated with one or two Laetan magisters, all mages, which leaves the other house as... something-not-that. That a non-Mage political body might exist actually gives me hope for possible reformation in Tevinter. (More than I have for reformation of Qunari anyway...)

 

You may be on to something. Dorias doesn't say almost anything about it, but his conversation triggers the appearance of the codex entry about the Magisterium and there you can find more about the lower house of the Senate. It's called the Publicanium and, frankly, it doesn't amount to much because the laws are made in the upper house and it only serves as a bureaucratic body.

 

But there's something interesting about it. Not that its members aren't mages (although it isn't ruled out either), but that they are elected. That sounds promising.


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#12327
Gervaise

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Elected doesn't really have to mean anything significant if the body doesn't have real teeth, which it doesn't.  It probably is a sop to the Soporati (no pun intended) so they can think they have an importance in society.   They probably vote and enact laws on a local level, such as how much money to spend on public order, repairing roads, etc, which is important for day to day comfort and security but doesn't actually give you any real political clout when it comes to changing national laws.   These are dealt with by the Magisterium, which for the most part is a non-elected body, even if some of the seats are held by people who have been elected to the post (for example the seats held by the Circles of Magi where the Magister is chosen (voted for?) from the ranks of senior enchanters.

 

World of Thedas 1 says that Soporati do not have any direct say in matters of governance and cannot rise above the rank of mother or father in the Imperial Chantry.   This suggests that even the lower house has only mages but more likely it is as I suggest above, that the lower house doesn't have any real political role to play.



#12328
Mistic

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Elected doesn't really have to mean anything significant if the body doesn't have real teeth, which it doesn't.  It probably is a sop to the Soporati (no pun intended) so they can think they have an importance in society.   They probably vote and enact laws on a local level, such as how much money to spend on public order, repairing roads, etc, which is important for day to day comfort and security but doesn't actually give you any real political clout when it comes to changing national laws.   These are dealt with by the Magisterium, which for the most part is a non-elected body, even if some of the seats are held by people who have been elected to the post (for example the seats held by the Circles of Magi where the Magister is chosen (voted for?) from the ranks of senior enchanters.

 

World of Thedas 1 says that Soporati do not have any direct say in matters of governance and cannot rise above the rank of mother or father in the Imperial Chantry.   This suggests that even the lower house has only mages but more likely it is as I suggest above, that the lower house doesn't have any real political role to play.

 

You are right, indeed, and the codex does point out that they are no more than bureaucrats. Yet its very existence provides some hope for reformation.

 

Why? Because it's easier for any reform to take powers from an existing institutional body (e.g., the Magisterium) to another one (the Publicanium) than creating a whole new system from scratch. It also mirrors developments in real life. The first steps to modern democracy happened when the Houses of Commons started fighting to overcome the Lords and the Crown. Maybe it's not as romantic as an American or French revolution, but it's more realistic, closer to the current state of society in Thedas and now we know that Tevinter may possibly be one of the few countries in which that scenario is possible, since only the Imperium and the two Dwarven city-states are known to have legislative bodies and elections.


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#12329
Senya

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Silly Tevinters, all shall be made equal under the boot of Communism the Qun. Slaves of the Imperium, unite!



#12330
Heimdall

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Why? Because it's easier for any reform to take powers from an existing institutional body (e.g., the Magisterium) to another one (the Publicanium) than creating a whole new system from scratch. It also mirrors developments in real life. The first steps to modern democracy happened when the Houses of Commons started fighting to overcome the Lords and the Crown. Maybe it's not as romantic as an American or French revolution, but it's more realistic, closer to the current state of society in Thedas and now we know that Tevinter may possibly be one of the few countries in which that scenario is possible, since only the Imperium and the two Dwarven city-states are known to have legislative bodies and elections.

...And this type of reform will probably kill fewer people in the process.
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#12331
Mistic

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...And this type of reform will probably kill fewer people in the process.

 

Hopefully, that would be ideal. But history says otherwise :(

 

Although the French Revolution gets the bad rep, the English were beheading kings and putting dictators in charge more than a century before in the name of the parliament. The bloodless Glorious Revolution didn't happen until later, and its appeal wouldn't have been possible without the loss of lives in the civil war.

 

What I'm trying to say is that a protagonist killing lots of people in RPG style + an important political reform + limits to that political reform is a realistic equation from a purely historical perspective. Nevertheless, I'm sure that if it happens some people will cry "it's unbelievable that you can take power from the magisters to give it to the lower classes" (forgetting that it has happened in real life) while others will cry "my PC is invincible, why can't I create a modern Western democracy in Tevinter right now?" (forgetting that the path to democracy was very tortuous and required huge sacrifices for apparently minor gains).


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#12332
Heimdall

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Well, the one thing I would want to avoid is a plot where we help a slave uprising take over Tevinter and fend off the Qunari simultaneously (Some people seem to want this)

My main problem with this idea is that I find it inconceivable that any serious slave uprising could occur without Tevinter falling to the Qun.

So I support the empowerment of Publicanum as the most believable best option.
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#12333
vertigomez

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How technologically advanced is Tevinter compared to, say, Orlais or Orzammar? I'm using 'technology' loosely because I know they use magic for mundane things, but how far does that extend? I'm just wondering how much of a leg-up they have in the day to day... indoor plumbing? Bathhouses? Clocks? I know the dwarves have those.

tl;dr what mundane crap does Tevinter have that other places wouldn't have easy access to?

I'm also curious about comparing how advanced Tevinter is versus Par Vollen, but not necessarily in war.

#12334
Heimdall

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How technologically advanced is Tevinter compared to, say, Orlais or Orzammar? I'm using 'technology' loosely because I know they use magic for mundane things, but how far does that extend? I'm just wondering how much of a leg-up they have in the day to day... indoor plumbing? Bathhouses? Clocks? I know the dwarves have those.

tl;dr what mundane crap does Tevinter have that other places wouldn't have easy access to?

I'm also curious about comparing how advanced Tevinter is versus Par Vollen, but not necessarily in war.

Plumbing, maybe, there was a pretty sophisticated bathhouse in MageKiller
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#12335
Lady Artifice

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How technologically advanced is Tevinter compared to, say, Orlais or Orzammar? I'm using 'technology' loosely because I know they use magic for mundane things, but how far does that extend? I'm just wondering how much of a leg-up they have in the day to day... indoor plumbing? Bathhouses? Clocks? I know the dwarves have those.

tl;dr what mundane crap does Tevinter have that other places wouldn't have easy access to?

I'm also curious about comparing how advanced Tevinter is versus Par Vollen, but not necessarily in war.

 

I've wondered about this often as well, and I'm leaning toward the idea that non magical technology originating in Tevinter is probably pretty meager in comparison to tech that the Dwarves and the Qunari come up with. I think they probably have some amazing magical items, and they probably borrow a lot from the Dwarves, but my impression is that Tevinter leans heavily on magic over tech, just like the south tends to ignore how useful it is.

 

I'm still a little annoyed by the surgeon in Skyhold. Medical progress is great and all, but I like to headcanon that my Inquisitor eventually told her that if it meant saving lives, they'll accept magical help whether she likes it or not.


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#12336
nightscrawl

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Plumbing, maybe, there was a pretty sophisticated bathhouse in MageKiller

 

They have the same type of "plumbing" afforded to the Romans, that is, gravity-fed aqueducts. We see them about in Jaws of Hakkon. Also, Dorian does specifically mention the bath houses in one environmental banter -- "Reminds me of the public baths in Minrathous... but cooler."

 

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this [aqueducts] were a dwarven thing originally. The Tevinter/dwarf relationship is one of cooperation, and I'd imagine there are other similar mutually beneficial advancements for each side. (I incorporated this idea into one fic I wrote, and it was so much fun doing the research and bringing it into the setting. I'm proud to say that it was before JoH was even released, so I jumped the gun on that one.)

 

I'd think that pretty much everyone has clocks by now...

 

In Magekiller #2 there is also a rad magical "laser" show as part of theatrical entertainment. I dunno if that counts. XD


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#12337
Heimdall

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I've wondered about this often as well, and I'm leaning toward the idea that non magical technology originating in Tevinter is probably pretty meager in comparison to tech that the Dwarves and the Qunari come up with. I think they probably have some amazing magical items, and they probably borrow a lot from the Dwarves, but my impression is that Tevinter leans heavily on magic over tech, just like the south tends to ignore how useful it is.

I'm still a little annoyed by the surgeon in Skyhold. Medical progress is great and all, but I like to headcanon that my Inquisitor eventually told her that if it meant saving lives, they'll accept magical help whether she likes it or not.

Then again, the Tevinter used to be close allies with the dwarves at the height of the empire and they still have close relations to the ambassadoria.

They might have adopted a bit of dwarven engineering.

#12338
Lady Artifice

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Then again, the Tevinter used to be close allies with the dwarves at the height of the empire and they still have close relations to the ambassadoria.

They might have adopted a bit of dwarven engineering.

 

That's what I was thinking actually. It's not so much the existence of technology in Tevinter that I doubt, as much as the idea of there being a lot of Tevinter specific technology. There might be some Tevinter citizens who create and develop non magical tech, but I get the feeling it would a relatively minor industry there.



#12339
Mistic

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Well, the one thing I would want to avoid is a plot where we help a slave uprising take over Tevinter and fend off the Qunari simultaneously (Some people seem to want this)

My main problem with this idea is that I find it inconceivable that any serious slave uprising could occur without Tevinter falling to the Qun.

So I support the empowerment of Publicanum as the most believable best option.

 

Why choose one? Bioware has a track record in allowing players to recruit and/or support different factions. However, I do notice that could provide one of those scenarios they love: what if you could only recruit either the slave rebels or the Publicanum? After all, it's said all the Senate unites against any threat to Tevinter social order, which means the lower house doesn't like free slaves either.

 

Oh, yeah, I can see the arguments: "elections and more power to the non-mages (except the slaves)!" versus "abolish slavery, all people are equal (under our mage overlords)!".


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#12340
Sifr

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Then again, the Tevinter used to be close allies with the dwarves at the height of the empire and they still have close relations to the ambassadoria.

They might have adopted a bit of dwarven engineering.

 

I would be surprised if Tevinter doesn't have anyone working on magitech devices, combining both the dwarves engineering savvy with the Vint's magical know-how, it just seems a logical step given how long their cultures have both been locked in a bromance for.

 

Sure, it might mean that Dagna would no longer be the first to work in that particular field, but that doesn't necessarily diminish that she's a revolutionary pioneer and one of the best in Thedas along with Sandal. Sort of similar to how Gerav was the one to come up with the idea of a repeating crossbow and was the one to build the crossbow that became "Bianca", but it took Bianca herself to finally get the thing to work?

 

Might be fun to have some Dwarves from the Imperium who'd been working on stuff like that for years, complaining that Dagna is stealing their thunder and outshining all their accomplishments.


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#12341
vertigomez

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GEEZ, YOU BUNCH OF SPEEDY GONZALEZES. Thanks for the info. :wizard:

I figured Tevinter had plumbing in the form of aqueducts, but I wasn't sure if I was just inferring from Roman history or if it'd actually been mentioned somewhere. Good to know. There are an awful lot of stone tubs in Orzammar, too, and I think there was a magitech faucet thing in the Deep Roads mentioned in The Calling. They got clean water out of it, anyway.

What about toilets? Hawke had a chamberpot and there are various references to visiting the privy/digging latrines in DAI, but I'm pretty sure flush toilets are a development for the far, faaar future...

As for how much Tevinter borrows from dwarven technology, my guess is that it's greater than anyone else in Thedas, but less than they ought. It's sort of like that gaatlok conversation in DA2 - why use weird qunari 'magic' when we already have magic that does the same thing? They might even think it's a bit sad and pathetic how the mundanes have to resort to finagling strange devices to do things mages can do with their mind.

I'd think that pretty much everyone has clocks by now...


Yeah, I brought that one up because the wiki says clocks were initially made by dwarves, are uncommon, and that time-keeping is an inexact science in Thedas. So I guess people mostly plan things based on where the sun is in the sky and how hot in the day it gets by mid-afternoon. (eta: that was for nightscrawl, the quote function is being contrary)

#12342
Sifr

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Yeah, I brought that one up because the wiki says clocks were initially made by dwarves, are uncommon, and that time-keeping is an inexact science in Thedas. So I guess people mostly plan things based on where the sun is in the sky and how hot in the day it gets by mid-afternoon. (eta: that was for nightscrawl, the quote function is being contrary)

 

Makes sense the Dwarves would be the ones to first invent clocks, since they are the only race in Thedas that aren't able to rely on the sun or celestial movements to ensure accurate timekeeping is maintained.

 

I'd say that Tevinter and Orlais are the most likely places to see them on the surface, the Imperium having them because they've been swapping tech with the Dwarves for centuries and Orlais having them imported because of how ostentatious the nobility are.

 

Makes you wonder whether or not the Qunari have them as well, since they tend to be very tech-savvy?



#12343
nightscrawl

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What about toilets? Hawke had a chamberpot and there are various references to visiting the privy/digging latrines in DAI, but I'm pretty sure flush toilets are a development for the far, faaar future...


Flush toilets, no, but you can still use the water in aqueducts to wash away waste for communal toilets. Essentially, everything would fall into a hole and then be carried away and emptied into a river. But even in Rome there was still the standard "let's throw it into the streets" kind of thing. The Wikipedia entries for Sanitation in Ancient Rome and Roman Aqueducts are full of fun tidbits.

I'd imagine that there are chamber pots for nighttime use and convenience, and then one can make use of a privy, public or private, during the day. Though it is fiction, the Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) makes use of both as well, and Martin felt the need to depict Tyrion squatting over a chamber pot one morning.

 

In the devs' presentation of Kirkwall, there seems to be a halfhearted attempt to show sanitation there as well; Merrill's house in the alienage has a sort of drainage system that I assume empties into the sewers (Darktown). When you consider that it is a Tevinter-built city, this is not surprising.

 

Back to the dwarves, the invention of aqueducts would have been essential for survival since they live underground. There are underground river systems, so the aqueducts could be used to supply an entire subterranean city with water (and their forges!).


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#12344
Sifr

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I reckon that Kirkwall might have had impressive sanitation back when it was Emerius, but it's slowly fallen into disrepair after the slave rebellion forced the Tevinters to abandon the city. You'd imagine that a couple Ages without magical or slave maintenance would probably tend to do that to a place.

 

Would also hearken back to how in our world, many towns in post-Roman Britain found themselves in similar predicaments, where lack of upkeep or knowledge on how to maintain the infrastructure caused many to be abandoned in the decades following the end of Roman occupation. At least one town had problems where the drainage being neglected caused part of the town to become a mire, if I'm recalling correctly.


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#12345
vertigomez

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Flush toilets, no, but you can still use the water in aqueducts to wash away waste for communal toilets. Essentially, everything would fall into a hole and then be carried away and emptied into a river. But even in Rome there was still the standard "let's throw it into the streets" kind of thing. The Wikipedia entries for Sanitation in Ancient Rome and Roman Aqueducts are full of fun tidbits.
I'd imagine that there are chamber pots for nighttime use and convenience, and then one can make use of a privy, public or private, during the day. Though it is fiction, the Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) makes use of both as well, and Martin felt the need to depict Tyrion squatting over a chamber pot one morning.
 
In the devs' presentation of Kirkwall, there seems to be a halfhearted attempt to show sanitation there as well; Merrill's house in the alienage has a sort of drainage system that I assume empties into the sewers (Darktown). When you consider that it is a Tevinter-built city, this is not surprising.
 
Back to the dwarves, the invention of aqueducts would have been essential for survival since they live underground. There are underground river systems, so the aqueducts could be used to supply an entire subterranean city with water (and their forges!).


I'm learning so much more about ancient and medieval plumbing than I ever thought to know. :lol: Thank you for the links. I love mundane world-building stuff like this - how people cook their food, what they use for bedding, why their clothes are designed the way they are (comfort or utility? Style? I suppose in fantasyland, style always wins out). Come to think of it, I have this notion that summers in Minrathous are somewhere shy of miserable, so everybody runs around in toga-esque garments and dhoti pants. I... have no idea why.

Also, speaking of aqueducts... err, sorta... Orzammar's clearly channeling that lava somewhere. I wonder if it's just diverted so it doesn't, you know, destroy the thaig, or if it's used as an energy resource? I imagine that's where the casteless get tossed when they die, since they're not 'worthy' of the Stone.

I reckon that Kirkwall might have had impressive sanitation back when it was Emerius, but it's slowly fallen into disrepair after the slave rebellion forced the Tevinters to abandon the city. You'd imagine that a couple Ages without magical or slave maintenance would probably tend to do that to a place.
 
Would also hearken back to how in our world, many towns in post-Roman Britain found themselves in similar predicaments, where lack of upkeep or knowledge on how to maintain the infrastructure caused many to be abandoned in the decades following the end of Roman occupation. At least one town had problems where the drainage being neglected caused part of the town to become a mire, if I'm recalling correctly.


Makes sense to me! No wonder everybody hates Kirkwall (or else loves it for being a miserable cesspool - looking at you, Varric!).

Makes sense the Dwarves would be the ones to first invent clocks, since they are the only race in Thedas that aren't able to rely on the sun or celestial movements to ensure accurate timekeeping is maintained.
 
I'd say that Tevinter and Orlais are the most likely places to see them on the surface, the Imperium having them because they've been swapping tech with the Dwarves for centuries and Orlais having them imported because of how ostentatious the nobility are.
 
Makes you wonder whether or not the Qunari have them as well, since they tend to be very tech-savvy?


I dunno about time-keeping, but I always pegged the Qunari as being expert navigators. Partly because of the lore... it's all but stated, yeah, but it seems like they're focused on where and the rest of Thedas is focused on when.

#12346
Gervaise

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Talking about Roman technology reminded me that they had their own form of central heating system to keep their villas warm in the winter.   Maevaris says that Dorian is a bit of a hot house flower, so I was wondering if Tevinter uses a form of central heating system too.   Poor Dorian if that is the case; he comes south to where it is generally freezing, cold and/or wet and then we end up in a castle on the top of a mountain and there is no central heating and a lot of gaps in the walls and roof.    Makes you appreciate his personal sacrifice in staying the south even more.  

 

Of course, if he's in a relationship with the Inquisitor, he stays warm in other ways, plus they have the best quarters in the place.



#12347
nightscrawl

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^ I am from Miami, Florida and moved to Seattle, Washington a few years ago. We don't often get snow, but I completely empathize with Dorian. I am cold 75% of the year and it sucks. The visuals are a big thing too. I've no doubt that Dorian misses seeing things like palm trees.



#12348
Red of Rivia

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Silly Tevinters, all shall be made equal under the boot of Communism the Qun. Slaves of the Imperium, unite!
 

It is easier to creat a new ''slave'' state than this, apparently.



#12349
Fallen_silver

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Greetings My fellow tevinter men and woman, 

 

I have been away from you all anything interest from stories or experiments.   



#12350
Mistic

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Since I haven't read Magekiller, I'm curious: does the comic reveal new details about how the Imperium works? Details that haven't been known until now, I mean.