15930 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Mistic has me convinced it might not actually shake things up much, but I agree that they'll probably avoid it. II expect the Old Gods to get much more attention than Andraste and the Maker this time around.

Mistic tries to convince everyone of their viewpoint but I am unconvinced. They'd have to actually establish a counter point so it could STILL possibly be the Maker's influence to any scenario as they have done in the past, its just more work to keep up the 50/50 ratio they do on things regarding the Maker.

[The Ascendant]

Rejoice! We have made the five hundred marker! It must be magic surely.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't know if progressive is the right word to use to describe the Imperial Chantry (any more). Many of its policies are just the opposite of the Andrastian Chantry. You need to be a mage to have any important positions. Also Tevinter is actually a lot more theocratic than the rest of Thedas, because the clergy also has secular political power in the magisterium.

[Xilizhra]

But then it goes into the realm of her not being touched by the Maker which goes into the existence of the Maker which they said they would never do, its far simpler to just ignore the issue.

Which is what I think Bioware will continue to do.

Magic, they say, is a gift from the Maker. It's not like Andraste being a mage changes anything real.

 

Also Tevinter is actually a lot more theocratic than the rest of Thedas, because the clergy also has secular political power in the magisterium.

I'd say it's the other way around: the Imperial Chantry is quite secular compared to the Andrastian Chantry.

[vertigomez]

Anyone else think it's interesting that Erasthenes was a scholar of the Old Gods? With his connection to Calpernia, and then Marius showing up in Magekiller, I wonder where they're going to go with that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I believe the state religion being directly tied to the government makes that state more religious than secular. Religion has always been more intertwined with government in Tevinter than elsewhere. The Archon is said to rule with the backing of the Maker.

[Master Warder Z_]

Magic, they say, is a gift from the Maker. It's not like Andraste being a mage changes anything real.

 

 

It throws in the line of questioning that it may not have been the Maker's grace that allowed her to lead a rebellion that toppled Tevinter, which in turns brings up the notion that perhaps she wasn't touched by the Maker, which in turns questions the existence of the Maker, which in turn is something they deliberately have stressed they will never confirm or deny. So its easier to not bring into question, stuff that forces counterpoints to be created, it just eats up resources that could be put into something else.

 

Plus it really doesn't have much impact in a game that isn't DAI. Whomever the new PC is will not be the Herald of Andraste.

[Master Warder Z_]

Religion has always been more intertwined with government in Tevinter than elsewhere.

 

Eh.

 

You can make a argument for Drakon's Orlais or the Anderfels.

[Xilizhra]

I believe the state religion being directly tied to the government makes that state more religious than secular. Religion has always been more intertwined with government in Tevinter than elsewhere. The Archon is said to rule with the backing of the Maker.

As is the Orlesian emperor.

 

 

It throws in the line of questioning that it may not have been the Maker's grace that allowed her to lead a rebellion that toppled Tevinter, which in turns brings up the notion that perhaps she wasn't touched by the Maker, which in turns questions the existence of the Maker, which in turn is something they deliberately have stressed they will never confirm or deny. So its easier to not bring into question, stuff that forces counterpoints to be created, it just eats up resources that could be put into something else.

 

Plus it really doesn't have much impact in a game that isn't DAI. Whomever the new PC is will not be the Herald of Andraste.

That is a line of questioning that's existed since DAO. And in any case, no counterpoints have to be created. Proving a negative is nearly impossible, so proving that the Maker doesn't exist is never going to happen. Proving that things didn't happen as the Chant of Light says they did... has already happened.

[Master Warder Z_]

no counterpoints have to be created. 

 

The existence of spirits, Fade and their implementation dispute that. For whatever revelation was unleashed, there was always something in the lore that was in the Chant that fit,and even occasionally turned out to be right. Ambiguity on issues is what serves them in this regard, by revealing the Prophet as a mage, you have to make a point of at least offering the context of what she spoke to in vision and dream. Because with that logic comes the whole demon thing, and that is a possible dismissal of the Maker.

 

Point being, its opening a can of worms they can honestly just ignore because it doesn't do anything but place them into a situation where they have to create more content to counterbalance it. I mean honestly I'd rather have them focus on a quest chain with that sort of vigor, because the quests in DAI were absolute trash, here have your 10,000 generic MMO quests and like 16 main quests, have fun.

[Mistic]

Magic, they say, is a gift from the Maker. It's not like Andraste being a mage changes anything real.

 

That's a good point. When Josephine reveals that some people have been talking ill of them because they're an elf, a Dalish Mage Inquisitor can ask if their magic isn't a greater problem. Cue Josephine's answer: "'Magic is meant to serve Man', the Chant teaches. Close the Breach and we can claim that's why Andraste chose you". So even in Southern Thedas the link between Andraste and magic is not as problematic as it sounds.

 

Tevinters could claim (and probably they do): if magic is meant to serve man, who would be a better example of that than Andraste herself? I wouldn't be surprised if it was something more accepted in the South in the old times, before the Circles, given everything we've discovered. Lord Seeker Lambert would have had a heart attack if he had known that his predecessor Ameridan was a mage who also worshipped the elven gods.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

WoT makes special mention rules by divine right, but doesn't do the same for Orlais. Plus, TME does give us a glimpse of the fact that the Empress is wary of the perception of Chantry influence on her rule.

[The Ascendant]

In the case of Tevinter I imagine that the Magisterium, the Circles of Magic and Imperial Chantry cooperate more closely and effectively than the South because they have unifying ideals, have a common enemy in the Qunari which seeks to destroy them both ideologically and and socially. The Imperium is reliant on magical which the Qunari hate and fear more than anything. If anything, Tevinter should be more unified, but based on what we've seen they are more divided than Orlesian nobles.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's not just cooperation, I believe the Divine, Grand Clerics, and Circle Enchaters are all Magisters themselves, so the Chantry and Circle are essentially an arm of the Magisterium.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's not just cooperation, I believe the Divine, Grand Clerics, and Circle Enchaters are all Magisters themselves, so the Chantry and Circle are essentially an arm of the Magisterium.

 

Is there any basis for them even having Grand Clerics? I mean those positions only exist because the Divine needs clergy to head other clergy outside of Orlais, why would a solitary nation like Tevinter have need of anything above your standard tier Fathers and Mothers? 

[The Baconer]

Is there any basis for them even having Grand Clerics? I mean those positions only exist because the Divine needs clergy to head other clergy outside of Orlais, why would a solitary nation like Tevinter have need of anything above your standard tier Fathers and Mothers? 

 

The main cities around Tevinter probably count as different provinces or boroughs. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The main cities around Tevinter probably count as different provinces or boroughs. 

 

Which would in the Southern Chantry just call for a regular Cleric.

 

._.

 

I guess they could add grandiose titling to the mix, that sounds like Tevinter but I would hardly label it as a needed oversight measure like it is in the south.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

World of Thedas Volume 1 mentions them repeatedly. Plus, I'm pretty sure there are Grand Clerics in Orlais as well.

[Master Warder Z_]

World of Thedas Volume 1 mentions them repeatedly. Plus, I'm pretty sure there are Grand Clerics in Orlais as well.

One and she was Justina's predecessor's aide in DOTS.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's hardly a conclusive sign there is no more than one

[Master Warder Z_]

That's hardly a conclusive sign there is no more than one

It's apparently tradition for them to be right hand of the Divine so...yeah, there would be only one.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That still doesn't necessarily follow, and even if it did it has no bearing on whether the Imperium has Grand Clerics.

[Sifr]

I tend to imagine that the Imperial Chantry probably is either;

 

A: More cut-throat than the Southern Chantry, with clerics jockeying for position and power. The Black Divine has the most power, but is constantly engaged in and thwarting various Machiavellian plots from clerics who seek to tip them out of their comfy chair.

 

(So basically the Sith meets the Chantry)

 

B: More centralised than the Southern Chantry, so that there are fewer ranks or those that do exist are otherwise considered mere formalities and have barely any more power than those under them. All the real power is instead tightly held solely by the Black Divine, in order to discourage ambitious clerics from attempting to make a power-play and usurping them.

 

(So basically how Vivienne runs things in the South if she becomes Divine)

[raging_monkey]

I like the first one

[Witch Cocktor]

In Tevinter, who is higher up the hierarchy, the Black Divine or the Archon?