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[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

When you are presenting evidence against what goes against historical grain, you generally have to do better.

If you think I'm wrong then see it for yourself.

[Medhia_Nox]

Is this the "Indigenous peoples of the Americas needed Europeans and Africans to learn." thread?  

 

How droll. 

[The Ascendant]

I'd certainly like some politics in my DA4, yes. I still remember the Winter Palace and the Landsmeet with fondness, and Dorian's words imply that politics in the Imperium aren't very different from Orlais.
 
That said, I have the feeling that the great equalizer (no mater if there are origins or not) that will kickstart the game will be slavery. Except dwarves (and in their case you need just a bit of imagination), having mages, non-mages, humans, elves and even Qunari as slaves is a pretty common sight in Tevinter, according to lore.
 
Also, I think we shouldn't desire to be Magisters. There's a juicier prize on sight, a possibility suggested by World of Thedas: becoming an Archon. Contrary to other monarchies, the position of Archon is not hereditary. He or she chooses the successor. If no one is named when they die, the Magisterium elects a new one, but no Magister or ranked member of the Chantry can become Archon. It doesn't say that only mages can become Archon; perhaps a loophole left there because no one believed a non-mage would be elected by the mage nobles of the Imperium. But when a PC is involved, everything is possible.

An early idea for Inquisition was becoming Divine, but obviously that wouldn't work for every race and Maker forbid a Mage become one! So our chances of becoming Archon are similarly unobtainable.
Starting as a slave we could be bought by different master depending on our race, class our even gender. One master might want a bodyguard, one might want a spy, or a gladiator or even a secret apprentice. Remember how the Elven servants of Orlais were everywhere and could've been working for anyone? The same could be imagined for Tevinter slaves.
The Magister idea seems small, but we could find other ways of getting involved in politics. You've given me a lot to ponder.

[Master Warder Z_]

You know, I have thought of a interesting parallel.

 

Zeon is the furthest series of colonies from Earth, Tevinter is the tip of where Humanities known influence ends in Thedas. This distance has worked to both's advantages when actually putting together their own nations and cultures, where Zeon was once like any Federal colony cluster pre Deikun and Tevinter was just another barbarian culture before advancing under the rule of stronger leaders. At the same time however, both of these cultures became increasingly insular and inclusive to the outside world to the point of the only contact you'd likely have from them would be in a military fashion.

 

Both believe in their inherent superiority over, basically every other race which stems from that culture. The difference being that in Tevinter such a attitude was cultivated over countless generations, in Zeon? They did it in a decade, soon after severing all contact with the greater solar community in the aftermath of Deikun's death and the rise of the Zabi's rampant nationalism and militarization began. Admittedly this rise to power would be no less bloody then any Tevinter power struggle, the National Diet was abolished(after being overthrow), the local military garrison from the Federation was kicked out of the country(after a series of mass revolts), the transformation from a democracy to a autocracy or monarchy(depends on how you view a hereditary dictatorship) occurring pretty much overnight.

 

Similarly with Tevinter in the aftermath of their own civil war marked its own decline from its golden age, the difference between these two examples is night and day, where Zeon rose to glory on the back of war, Tevinter crumbled in it.

 

I can keeping going, but the point is made.

 

Edit: I added two videos to provide clarification for those who don't know a Zaku II RB from their own left foot.

Spoiler

 

 

[Mistic]

An early idea for Inquisition was becoming Divine, but obviously that wouldn't work for every race and Maker forbid a Mage become one! So our chances of becoming Archon are similarly unobtainable.

 

Don't forget another point that Dorian raises: Tevinters love their stories about going from rags to riches. It's one of the reasons commoners don't rebel against the system, because it sells the fiction that anyone could become more than they are. "Tevinter legend is chock-full of mage heroes from humble origins".

 

Now, you just need to sell that "non-mage" is the next logical step in that selling point. Commoners will love it, Laetans may accept it with some convincing, and Altus... Well, history shows that those who save Tevinter from impending foreign doom can be very convincing, either by going back to magocracy or by letting the populace kill lots and lots of Altus until they relent.

 

Zeon is the furthest series of colonies from Earth, Tevinter is the tip of where Humanities known influence ends in Thedas. This distance has worked to both's advantages when actually putting together their own nations and cultures, where Zeon was once like any Federal colony cluster pre Deikun and Tevinter was just another barbarian culture before advancing under the rule of stronger leaders. At the same time however, both of these cultures became increasingly insular and inclusive to the outside world to the point of the only contact you'd likely have from them would be in a military fashion.

 

I don't know if the parallel is appropriate here. Tevinter is the core of human civilization, more or less the first place where humans arrived to the continent. Also, far from being insular, Tevinter was expansive, more than willing to trade peacefully with those who wanted (like the Dwarven Empire) and ruthlessly crush those who tried to stay insular (like the remains of Elvhenan). That until the Blight started and, after that, a group of barbarians from the farthest corners colonized by humanity rose against them under the banners of political opportunity (Maferath) and zealotry (Andraste).

 

You know, maybe Tevinter is the Federation and Zeon is the Alamarri?

[Master Warder Z_]

<.<

[The Ascendant]

Don't forget another point that Dorian raises: Tevinters love their stories about going from rags to riches. It's one of the reasons commoners don't rebel against the system, because it sells the fiction that anyone could become more than they are. "Tevinter legend is chock-full of mage heroes from humble origins".

 

Now, you just need to sell that "non-mage" is the next logical step in that selling point. Commoners will love it, Laetans may accept it with some convincing, and Altus... Well, history shows that those who save Tevinter from impending foreign doom can be very convincing, either by going back to magocracy or by letting the populace kill lots and lots of Altus until they relent.

 

Slave origin is the most likely, but I think that the next game might play out like Fallout 4, where there are competing factions and different endings based on who you sided with. I can imagine four possible factions. You have the Inquisition from DAI (secret or otherwise), Fen'Harel's forces, the Qunari and a Venatori style of Tevinter individuals. What becomes of our future slave PC waits to be seen. 

[Red of Rivia]

I understand what Solas is trying to do and I respect him for it, but I don't agree of what he's doing by destroying the world to relive the glory days, he will cause more damage that's so big it will be irreversible beyond repair. He thinks that everything is his fault that the elves were mortal and a prey to the Imperium, because he created the Veil to keep the Evanuris from destroying the world. He made the best out of a bad situation so he did what he had to do to save his people, if I were Solas I just take all elves to somewhere else to start over and teach them everything about elven history, magic and philosophies and never again repeat history. And I would've take my lover with me so we can raise a family and settle down, the thing is that Solas needs to forgive himself and forgive everything so he can move on with his life and be with Amaya (My elven Inquisitor)

I see.

But your idea and Solas too is like communism, too romantic to work. In the Idea is wonderful, but in pratice... 

[Heimdall]

Your latest new in Tevinter engineering achievements, they apparently built a freaking bridge across the whole Waking Sea.

 

[Mistic]

Slave origin is the most likely, but I think that the next game might play out like Fallout 4, where there are competing factions and different endings based on who you sided with. I can imagine four possible factions. You have the Inquisition from DAI (secret or otherwise), Fen'Harel's forces, the Qunari and a Venatori style of Tevinter individuals. What becomes of our future slave PC waits to be seen. 

 

Different factions would be good, but I'm not sure we'll have Solas or the Qunari as factions to join or help. They'll probably remain as enemies, or at best become temporary allies for a given goal. I may see a DA2 ending scenario: ally with one to fight the other, then you end up having to fight your ally afterwards.

 

Bioware's RPG tend to be the "choose A or B, maybe with a third option if you play your cards right" sort, with pretty straightforward conflicts. In DA:I, for example, we had Templars and Red Templars, Rebel Mages and Venatori, Celene's side, Gaspard's side, Briala's elves, Grey Wardens. More factions than in Fallout 4, yet the way of addressing them was not the same. However, that doesn't mean they won't try to do things differently in DA4.

 

<.<

 

What? Although I agree that there are similarities in their national attitudes, as you point out in the other paragraphs, Zeon's and Tevinter's backstory and geopolitical position in their respective settings are exactly the opposite.

[nightscrawl]

Not sarcastic. Just want a more involved game. If we get the chance to be a magister (human/elf mage exclusive/not impossible remember Varania)(other classes and races can find their own little niche). Each race and class joining a certain group/faction making you more involved in Thedas. Unlikely I know but it's a lovely thought.

I HIGHLY doubt they will go down this road and have the paths for the different classes (and possibly races) be so disparate.

Also, what do you mean by referencing Varania? It's not like Danarius made her a magister or anything. We don't even know if he would have followed through with his promise, she only had his word.

 

I may see a DA2 ending scenario: ally with one to fight the other, then you end up having to fight your ally afterwards.

I would be for this if they actually made it count for something. In the end, the DA2 choice didn't really change anything. You could keep all of your friends, regardless of path, if you made certain choices with them. Both bosses were the same and their fight mechanics were the same. A templar-sided Hawke gets to become viscount for a short time before disappearing, which happens regardless. The mage/templar war starts regardless. The events in both the Asunder novel and DAI play out the same regardless.

 

Bioware doesn't do large, sweeping variation of choice.

[The Ascendant]

What I really want to see is the Tevinter Archives. They have secret information of the Darkspawn, and who knows what else. All those magical secrets just waiting to be uncovered, we might even make a great historical discovery or revelation.

[Mistic]

Bioware doesn't do large, sweeping variation of choice.

 

That is true. In that scenario I mentioned, the Bioware solution is easy to see: history will remember that you saved the Imperium from both the Qunari threat and the Dread Wolf, not in which order you did it, or if you were more sympathetic to one or the other, or whether you were honest in your alliance and felt betrayed or played Machiavelli and were the first to backstab your ally.

 

Sadly, that makes the idea more likely, precisely because it provides the fiction of choice without really changing things. That's another reason I see the Archon ending feasible. If so far who you choose as the ruler of a certain nation doesn't amount to much, the next Archon being the PC won't change things either and at least people will stop asking "where is my PC now?".

 

Bonus points for using the "ruling duties" as an excuse not to have the PC from DA4 become the protagonist in DA5. Not that it will stop a certain part of the fandom. I can almost hear the future "my character's story isn't over", "my PC would do that", "the ending was clearly a cliffhanger", "obviously, the Warden's, Hawke's and the Inquisitor's arcs are over over, but it's not the same with this one because...", etc.

 

What I really want to see is the Tevinter Archives. They have secret information of the Darkspawn, and who knows what else. All those magical secrets just waiting to be uncovered, we might even make a great historical discovery or revelation.

 

Sigh, I would have wished to visit the University of Orlais. When you take a look at war table missions (and the Jaws of Hakkon DLC), it seems the Inquisition helps or sponsors several scholar pursuits, but apart from ruin-exploring we don't really see much of it.

 

That said, the forest of Arlathan is next to Tevinter, and we have the Solas subplot. Maybe we'll find out how the last remnant of Elvhenan fell.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't know if the parallel is appropriate here. Tevinter is the core of human civilization, more or less the first place where humans arrived to the continent. Also, far from being insular, Tevinter was expansive, more than willing to trade peacefully with those who wanted (like the Dwarven Empire) and ruthlessly crush those who tried to stay insular (like the remains of Elvhenan). That until the Blight started and, after that, a group of barbarians from the farthest corners colonized by humanity rose against them under the banners of political opportunity (Maferath) and zealotry (Andraste).

 

You know, maybe Tevinter is the Federation and Zeon is the Alamarri?

 

In how their respective wars went maybe? Not even that really.Tevinter fell apart, its a paper tiger if there ever was one. It would be Zeon in that case too, Tevinter lost that war on the theater level, you don't give up a continent, if you have the capabilities to win.

 

Also being trade, does not mean that you have adoptive culture, did Tevinter adopt the customs of every society they conquered? Of course not, they took some useful things, but overall they did not change, insular society, insular culture. You finding a parallel between two parts of their respective histories doesn't do this much credit.

 

But overall like Zeon-Tevinter would not abandon its cause so easily. With numerous rogue militant groups, terrorist cells and successor Zeon movements, the One Year War would not be the end of a era of war but rather then merely the prelude to it. Which mirrors Tevinter's defeat in the first Exalted March only to gather its strength and basically invade several nations, Zeon would do similarly, a decade almost after the One Year War, they invade in earnest. Kick off another major war, get defeated, same as Tevinter in the aftermath of the Third Blight, because the Federation had actually just gotten out of a war, where Zeon had aided them

 

Ironically enough, they turned on them mere days after the Gryps War ended.

 

Of course same song and dance, they are defeated, shattered and disorganized, but in the aftermath of the First Neo Zeon War...well you know how it goes, new leaders rise, rally the men, regroup and prepare.

 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I wish I have the option of freeing slaves (especially elven slaves) with my elven Inquisitor.

[Sifr]

Your latest new in Tevinter engineering achievements, they apparently built a freaking bridge across the whole Waking Sea.

 

 

I've been wondering about this bridge across the sea ever since Origins, although Bull telling us that the Vints rely on magic to lift heavy blocks during construction makes the pieces kind of fall into place (pardon the expression) on how they were able to pull this off.

 

Since the road is not straight on the map, perhaps the ruined sections have shifted over time due to the currents? Or perhaps they built the bridge onto pre-existing islands, so the various sections of the highway are a little wonky as a result?

[nightscrawl]

Since the road is not straight on the map, perhaps the ruined sections have shifted over time due to the currents? Or perhaps they built the bridge onto pre-existing islands, so the various sections of the highway are a little wonky as a result?

We're not exactly looking at Google Thedas here, so we can't rely too heavily on a simplified map graphic.

 

The islands is an interesting idea, and certainly something that happens in real life. We don't know exactly how old the bridge is, or how it was destroyed; that could only signify that it is destroyed, and nothing more. Or it could be that the result of the destruction scattered large chunks haphazardly and it was originally straight across, or your previously mentioned idea about currents.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I see.
But your idea and Solas too is like communism, too romantic to work. In the Idea is wonderful, but in pratice...

It's not communism it's restoration and that is the best solution there is. The best Solas can do is to gather all elves, and go somewhere off world and destroy the eluvians so humans can't follow them and to start over.

[Medhia_Nox]

Your latest new in Tevinter engineering achievements, they apparently built a freaking bridge across the whole Waking Sea.

 

 

The new Ferelden Empire will have to rebuild this bridge after we conquer Orlais under the banner of Emperor Coulsand.

[Vit246]

The new Ferelden Empire will have to rebuild this bridge after we conquer Orlais under the banner of Emperor Coulsand.

Oh please ferelden is the most backwater generic of the kingdoms of Thedas.

[Red of Rivia]

It's not communism it's restoration and that is the best solution there is. The best Solas can do is to gather all elves, and go somewhere off world and destroy the eluvians so humans can't follow them and to start over.

Hard, this is almost impossible 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Hard, this is almost impossible

Better than tearing down the Veil and I never said it will be easy.

[Red of Rivia]

Better than tearing down the Veil and I never said itvwill be easy.

It is more realistic, not more easier, don't you think?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

It is more realistic, not more easier, don't you think?

Elves needed a place of their own to start over to rebuild and heal themselves, and never repeat history that brought their downfall in the first place. It could never be Thedas because of "humans" who are constantly oppressing them.

[Red of Rivia]

Elves needed a place of their own to start over to rebuild and heal themselves, and never repeat history that brought their downfall in the first place. It could never be Thedas because of "humans" who are constantly oppressing them.

That's the point, there is no escape, humans are everywhere.