15922 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

Interesting... how do you feel about the debt culture of the United States where you cannot strive for anything without credit and cannot have credit without debt?

 
I'm not so sure about the validity of that comparison since indentured servitude is more or less defined as: "a person who signs and is bound by indentures to work for another for a specified time especially in return for payment of travel expenses and maintenance."

 

That is, of course, if it is intended towards being a comparison and not towards being a question.

[Shechinah]

The only case we know about in the rest of Thedas of indentured servitude being practiced is in DA2, where Hawke and family enter into this arrangment for one year to pay off whatever group bribed the guards to cover their entrance fee into the city.

 

So either indentured servitude is legal in the rest of Thedas and they do make a distinction between it and slavery... or it's just as illegal and Hawke's situation was more of a gentleman's agreement to work off the loan for their creditors directly?

 

Hawke's deal with Athenril or Meeran seemed more to me an gentleman's agreement to work off Gamlen's debt and the bribery required for their entry into Kirkwall. It did not seem an indication of indentured servitude of that nature being legal.
 

[Vit246]

Well just because Alexius is an asshat and a criminal, does not mean indentured servitude contracts in general are some kind of invalid joke that are laughed out of the Tevinter courts and the terms not enforced.

[Iakus]

Hawke's deal with Athenril or Meeran seemed more to me an gentleman's agreement to work off Gamlen's debt and the bribery required for their entry into Kirkwall. It did not seem an indication of indentured servitude of that nature being legal.
 

Given both groups are rather shady, legally speaking, this is probably the case.

[Vit246]

Indentured servitude is slavery.  With the only caveat being the promise of "eventual" freedom

 

Edit:  or does "human/elven trafficking" make it sound more palatable?

 

Hawke sold himself and his family into indentured servitude for a year and he paid off the debt and gained the freedom dues, or did he not?

 

EDIT: Oh bloody hell, never mind.

 

"eventual freedom"

Thats the distinction I make. Slaves are not guaranteed their freedoms. Indentured servants are. Legally in theory anyway. In practice, it may be variable BUT thats NOT the point. There is a principle involved here.

Modifié par Vit246, 21 avril 2016 - 04:12 .

[Shechinah]

Well just because Alexius is an asshat and a criminal, does not mean indentured servitude contracts in general are some kind of invalid joke that are laughed out of the Tevinter courts and the terms not enforced.

 

No but I consider it highly likely given what we know about the Tevinter Imperium.

[Sifr]

Hawke's deal with Athenril or Meeran seemed more to me an gentleman's agreement to work off Gamlen's debt and the bribery required for their entry into Kirkwall. It did not seem an indication of indentured servitude of that nature being legal.
 

 

Either way, I imagine that Aveline joining the Kirkwall Guard during the intervening year probably helped;

 

If it was legal, Aveline would have been able to enforce that Hawke was able to get out of deal at the end of the term of service.

If it wasn't legal, Hawke had leverage to get out of the deal when they were supposed to, since they had a bit of pull with the guard.

[Sifr]

Well just because Alexius is an asshat and a criminal, does not mean indentured servitude contracts in general are some kind of invalid joke that are laughed out of the courts and the terms not enforced.

 

No but I consider it highly likely given what we know about the Tevinter Imperium.

 

Depending on how strict Vints are when it comes to their legal system regarding indentured servitude, the breach of contract by Alexius might have been taken seriously by an Imperium judge, should the deal have actually gone through and the rebellion had sought haven in Tevinter.

 

Krem tells us that public-owned slaves (like his father) do have some rights it seems. You'd expect that their might be some civil unrest, should they learn that Alexius had royally screwed the Mage Rebellion by altering the terms of their indenture after the deal had already been struck... because if that was allowed to happen and the Imperium did nothing, what was to stop the same from happening from then?

 

It might even be enough that a Tevinter court might decide to invalidate the contract entirely, especially if in this scenario, Alexius was then outed as a member of the Venatori. I could see the Magisterium if faced with such a scandal involving one of their own, potentially consenting to terminating the servitude and fast-tracking the process to make Fiona's people citizens, in exchange for them not breathing a word of this to anyone.

[Vit246]

No but I consider it highly likely given what we know about the Tevinter Imperium.

I would like to think that even though its a unapologetic slaving nation, Tevinter has some kind of standards.

[Medhia_Nox]

 
I'm not so sure about the validity of that comparison since indentured servitude is more or less defined as: "a person who signs and is bound by indentures to work for another for a specified time especially in return for payment of travel expenses and maintenance."

 

That is, of course, if it is intended towards being a comparison and not towards being a question.

 

Someone mentioned that indentured servitude was a kind of "advance" in slavery... my comparison, if one is to be made at all, is to suggest yet another "advance" in the way a state controls its subjects. 

 

@Vit246:  I don't think Hawke's indentured servitude was "legal" in any way... I mean... one was to a smuggler and the other was to a mercenary if I recall.  Those are hardly professions that can legal bind anything.

 

I think it was more of a job with forward payment.  "Well let you in, but you work with us for a year."  I don't know if that's "exactly" indentured servitude.

[nightscrawl]

^ I realize that Leandra is being all motherly when she says this, but she does refer to it that way -- "You sold my children into servitude." That's probably one reason people associate the DA2 circumstance with it.

[Iadro]

Tevinter is watered by Fenris' tears...

 

In all seriousness, I wonder what the relationship between the Tevinter Warden Commander and Imperium leadership is?

 

I would assume it to be a cordial, working relationship, given that Tevinter has suffered the most from the Blights historically (shattered the original empire, made them weak enough for some barbarian woman to sack their lands, put all their Gods to sleep, millions dead from both the Blights and losses to rival powers over the centuries, etc.) and they would have a certain appreciation for Wardens - at least, fellow Tevinter nationals. In my mind's eye I can see the Tevinter Warden Compound in Minrathous - vast halls filled with mosaics and marble statues that move only sometimes, vaults stuffed with lore and Joining elixirs both failed and potent, an endless supply of slaves for research and testing, laboratories that make Avernus' look like the backwater post it is.

 

Logically, they should have accomplished much, much more than Avernus has. Blood magic is pretty much an open secret in the Imperium, practiced behind closed doors, and no door is more pointlessly closed and secret than the Wardens'.

 

Then again, given Bioware's track record, I expect the Tevinter W-C to at the Archon's throat for no reason at all, if they even make an appearance. There just might be a single crude chemistry stand, tucked away behind a "warrior-only" bashable door. 

[Illegitimus]

Indentured servitude is slavery.  With the only caveat being the promise of "eventual" freedom

 

Edit:  or does "human/elven trafficking" make it sound more palatable?

 

No, it isn't.  Slavery has no specified term limit and no other contractual terms.  A slave is property, to be disposed of as the owner sees fit as are its offspring.  They are domestic animals in human form.  An indenture is a contract with terms that are binding on both parties.  It's a kind of contract that isn't legally binding in modern times but there was a big difference in legal and social status between slavery and indenture when indenture was a thing.   

[Hellion Rex]

Tevinter is watered by Fenris' tears...

 

In all seriousness, I wonder what the relationship between the Tevinter Warden Commander and Imperium leadership is?

 

I would assume it to be a cordial, working relationship, given that Tevinter has suffered the most from the Blights historically (shattered the original empire, made them weak enough for some barbarian woman to sack their lands, put all their Gods to sleep, millions dead from both the Blights and losses to rival powers over the centuries, etc.) and they would have a certain appreciation for Wardens - at least, fellow Tevinter nationals. In my mind's eye I can see the Tevinter Warden Compound in Minrathous - vast halls filled with mosaics and marble statues that move only sometimes, vaults stuffed with lore and Joining elixirs both failed and potent, an endless supply of slaves for research and testing, laboratories that make Avernus' look like the backwater post it is.

 

Logically, they should have accomplished much, much more than Avernus has. Blood magic is pretty much an open secret in the Imperium, practiced behind closed doors, and no door is more pointlessly closed and secret than the Wardens'.

 

Then again, given Bioware's track record, I expect the Tevinter W-C to at the Archon's throat for no reason at all, if they even make an appearance. There just might be a single crude chemistry stand, tucked away behind a "warrior-only" bashable door. 

Hold up. I'm pretty sure that we have no proof as to there even being a Warden Commander of Tevinter. I don't see the Imperium allowing the Wardens a shred of power in their country.

 

I highly doubt that they have much presence in Tevinter at all, much less in Minrathous. And if there is, it's only a conciliatory gesture, nothing of any import.

[Qun00]

Indentured servitude is slavery. With the only caveat being the promise of "eventual" freedom

Edit: or does "human/elven trafficking" make it sound more palatable?

Heck, it is exactly how modern slavery happens.

People taking advantage of illegal imigrants and luring them into large debts they'll never be able to pay.

[Illegitimus]

Heck, it is exactly how modern slavery happens.

People taking advantage of illegal imigrants and luring them into large debts they'll never be able to pay.

 

That is not indenture.  Indenture has a contract with fixed terms.  The closest modern equivalent to indenture is the contracts used by professional sports teams.  

[Heimdall]

No, it isn't. Slavery has no specified term limit and no other contractual terms. A slave is property, to be disposed of as the owner sees fit as are its offspring. They are domestic animals in human form. An indenture is a contract with terms that are binding on both parties. It's a kind of contract that isn't legally binding in modern times but there was a big difference in legal and social status between slavery and indenture when indenture was a thing.

Slavery can refer to many forms of coerced labor. What you're describing is chattel slavery in which the slave is treated as the absolute property of the owner.

Edit: There's a reason slavery is referred to in scholarly circles as the ubiquitous institution, because it has been practiced in some form (Again, many forms of coerced labor) by every civilization that has ever existed at some point.

[nightscrawl]

I think it's rather silly to be making these sorts of hard-line distinctions. Not only do we know very little about Tevinter and the various forms of slavery that are practiced there, but real life is not, and was not ever so neatly defined. People in power break laws, find loopholes, and abuse the system (such as it is) to get what they want.

 

The thing about a contract holder is that they have all the power and the person who sells themselves into indentured servitude has little to none of their own. There are situations in the United States and elsewhere where the poor and disadvantaged are taken advantage of because they are afraid of the (far worse) consequences if they don't go along, such as being deported from the US if they report abuse to the police.

 

It actually would be interesting to know what Tevinter's laws are regarding slaves. Krem's father sold himself into slavery and Krem tells us that he is now one of the servus publicus, a Tevinter owned slave. I'm going to assume that means that he is owned by the government itself, rather than a private individual or family, and that these sorts of slaves do anything from street cleaning to intensive manual labor in the maintenance of Tevinter's crumbling infrastructure and so on.

[Mistic]

Hold up. I'm pretty sure that we have no proof as to there even being a Warden Commander of Tevinter. I don't see the Imperium allowing the Wardens a shred of power in their country.

 

I highly doubt that they have much presence in Tevinter at all, much less in Minrathous. And if there is, it's only a conciliatory gesture, nothing of any import.

 

Why not? The Grey Wardens were created from former Tevinter soldiers. Until the Anderfels joined Drakon's Orlais, their headquarters at Weisshaupt had been in imperial territory for more than 200 years. The Imperium has also fought alongside the Wardens in several Blights. And they signed the treaties on the Right of Conscription and other concessions long before Orlais or Ferelden ever existed.

 

If anything, it would be stranger for the Imperium not to have some Warden garrisons, although maybe not in Minrathous.

[The Ascendant]

I really want to see the giant golems that guard Minrathous, I believe that they are known as Juggernauts.

[Shechinah]

I really want to see the giant golems that guard Minrathous, I believe that they are known as Juggernauts.

 

I think it was said in Calpernia's short story that they are in disrepair due to the person overseeing their maintence spending the money meant for them on unrelated matters. I do want to see them as well; if we do, I would not be surprised if we find ourselves given the oppertunity to fight one during the game.
 

[Sifr]

Why not? The Grey Wardens were created from former Tevinter soldiers. Until the Anderfels joined Drakon's Orlais, their headquarters at Weisshaupt had been in imperial territory for more than 200 years. The Imperium has also fought alongside the Wardens in several Blights. And they signed the treaties on the Right of Conscription and other concessions long before Orlais or Ferelden ever existed.

 

If anything, it would be stranger for the Imperium not to have some Warden garrisons, although maybe not in Minrathous.

 

The Anderfels do harbour bitter resentment towards the Imperium over being abandoned during the Second Blight, an enmity that supposedly persists to the modern age. Part of the reason the Anderfels joined the Orlesian Empire was because Drakon was willing to send in the relief forces to help the Wardens that Tevinter refused to.

 

I don't know if the Wardens look on the Imperium all that favourably. The Imperium not only (supposedly) caused this to begin with, but refuses to send any help to clean up the mess (unless it suits them), but even worse, will abandon everyone at the drop of a hat to save themselves... which incidentally, was the order the original Wardens decided to ignore (while probably invoking the immortal words of Sandor Clegane) when they decided to go rogue and stay to defend the Anderfels.

 

[Medhia_Nox]

I really want to see the giant golems that guard Minrathous, I believe that they are known as Juggernauts.

 

One has to wonder if Caridin made them... or there is more than one Anvil of the Void. 

 

Of course it's just as likely Bioware said... "Whatever, anyone can make golems... huzzah!"

[The Ascendant]

One has to wonder if Caridin made them... or there is more than one Anvil of the Void. 

 

Of course it's just as likely Bioware said... "Whatever, anyone can make golems... huzzah!"

Apparently they were a gift from the Dwarves to the Imperium, presumably when golems were more common.

[Iakus]

The Anderfels do harbour bitter resentment towards the Imperium over being abandoned during the Second Blight, an enmity that supposedly persists to the modern age. Part of the reason the Anderfels joined the Orlesian Empire was because Drakon was willing to send in the relief forces to help the Wardens that Tevinter refused to.

 

I don't know if the Wardens look on the Imperium all that favourably. The Imperium not only (supposedly) caused this to begin with, but refuses to send any help to clean up the mess (unless it suits them), but even worse, will abandon everyone at the drop of a hat to save themselves... which incidentally, was the order the original Wardens decided to ignore (while probably invoking the immortal words of Sandor Clegane) when they decided to go rogue and stay to defend the Anderfels.

 

 

The Grey Wardens are also completely neutral.  The protect everyone.  So whatever the Anderfels may think of Tevinter, the Wardens would still protect them.