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[Red of Rivia]

There's no reason to expect Tevinter slavery to be notably brutal as long as you don't try to quit your job and your master doesn't have any big magical projects and you aren't a mother who has produced children surplus to your household's requirements.  

Perphaps, but... there some dudes in Tevinter who likes to be slave.

 

Slavery is still wrong and evil. Slavery should never existed in the first place, because you destroy people mentally, physically and spirituality.

I don't think that Bioware will take this step.

[Sifr]

Perphaps, but... there some dudes in Tevinter who likes to be slave.

 

Just because there are people who solved themselves into indentured service to become the publically-owned slaves, does not mean they did so because they were happy about it. It was more that circumstance dictated that this option was preferable to having either themselves or their families starve in poverty, such as the case with Krem's father after he was put out of business.

 

As we saw in Dragon Age 2, there's no such thing as happiness in slavery, only what some slaves come to accept as their lot in life.

 

Orana: Everything was fine before today!

Fenris: It wasn't... you just didn't know any better.

 

--

Hawke: I have to wonder why you stayed with Danarius as long as you did?

Fenris: You have not been a slave. A slave does not dream of freedom, or wonder at possibilities. You think only of your master's desires and what will the next hour bring. It did not occur to me that I could be anything else until I had a taste of it.

Hawke: But there are are stories of slaves rebelling all the time, they did in Kirkwall?

Fenris: The ritual that gave me my markings also stripped me of my memory. Whatever I was before, may as well have never been. Perhaps if I knew, I might have felt differently?

[Heimdall]

Just because there are people who solved themselves into indentured service to become the publically-owned slaves, does not mean they did so because they were happy about it. It was more that circumstance dictated that this option was preferable to having either themselves or their families starve in poverty, such as the case with Krem's father after he was put out of business.

As we saw in Dragon Age 2, there's no such thing as happiness in slavery, only what some slaves come to accept as their lot in life.

Orana: Everything was fine before today!
Fenris: It wasn't... you just didn't know any better.

--
Hawke: I have to wonder why you stayed with Danarius as long as you did?
Fenris: You have not been a slave. A slave does not dream of freedom, or wonder at possibilities. You think only of your master's desires and what will the next hour bring. It did not occur to me that I could be anything else until I had a taste of it.
Hawke: But there are are stories of slaves rebelling all the time, they did in Kirkwall?
Fenris: The ritual that gave me my markings also stripped me of my memory. Whatever I was before, may as well have never been. Perhaps if I knew, I might have felt differently?

*shrug* Depends on their condition. While I doubt any slave is truly happy to be a slave, they can find aspects of their condition (Such as material comfort) agreeable by comparison to alternatives, as shown by Fenris' sister.

I've read quite a few accounts of ex-slaves as part of my research and a surprising number considered slavery preferable in some ways to their current condition (To be more specific, the accounts were taken during the Great Depression and they missed being reliably well fed under slavery)

[Xilizhra]

Just because there are people who solved themselves into indentured service to become the publically-owned slaves, does not mean they did so because they were happy about it. It was more that circumstance dictated that this option was preferable to having either themselves or their families starve in poverty, such as the case with Krem's father after he was put out of business.

 

As we saw in Dragon Age 2, there's no such thing as happiness in slavery, only what some slaves come to accept as their lot in life.

I would argue that there can be happiness in slavery, though it's somewhat theoretical and greatly depends on the master. While a slave of course has no protections from her own master, she does have more protections from other people than one of the underclass in, say, Orlais, or a free but poor Tevinter citizen, because someone powerful could frown upon anything happening to them. Combined with the strong possibility of better lodgings (your quarters will likely be cramped, but are less likely to have problems with heat or roof leakage) and regular meals, a slave can legitimately have a better life than many other lower-class people in Thedas. The system of slavery is evil because it's heinously easy to abuse, but a genuinely good master can also easily make their slaves' lives more pleasant than they would be anywhere else, realistically speaking.

[Hellion Rex]

Just because there are people who solved themselves into indentured service to become the publically-owned slaves, does not mean they did so because they were happy about it. It was more that circumstance dictated that this option was preferable to having either themselves or their families starve in poverty, such as the case with Krem's father after he was put out of business.

 

As we saw in Dragon Age 2, there's no such thing as happiness in slavery, only what some slaves come to accept as their lot in life.

 

Orana: Everything was fine before today!

Fenris: It wasn't... you just didn't know any better.

 

--

Hawke: I have to wonder why you stayed with Danarius as long as you did?

Fenris: You have not been a slave. A slave does not dream of freedom, or wonder at possibilities. You think only of your master's desires and what will the next hour bring. It did not occur to me that I could be anything else until I had a taste of it.

Hawke: But there are are stories of slaves rebelling all the time, they did in Kirkwall?

Fenris: The ritual that gave me my markings also stripped me of my memory. Whatever I was before, may as well have never been. Perhaps if I knew, I might have felt differently?

That's one person's opinion though. And he had a relatively cruel master. As we have seen in Tevinter, not all of them are as vile and cruel as Danarius. Erasthenes is such an example.

[Sifr]

That's one person's opinion though. And he had a relatively cruel master. As we have seen in Tevinter, not all of them are as vile and cruel as Danarius. Erasthenes is such an example.

 

Erasthenes was not cruel, but he did seem to be relatively absent and indifferent to his slaves.

 

That's part of the reason that Calpernia eventually jumped at the chance to abandon him for Corypheus, as while Erasthenes was not a bad master, he did nothing to really encourage or promote her magic, such as not taking her as an apprentice even though he could have.

 

Calpernia also disliked how Magisters like her master would rather spend their time locked in their studies or collecting dusty relics of the Imperium's former glory, rather than do the hard work to try to change the Imperium for the better and bring those days back.

 

That's part of the problem with Tevinter society. As while they are not all everyone is cruel or decadent, they've all let themselves become extremely stagnant as a people, something that even Dorian states he dislikes about his homeland.

 

I suppose that regardless of whether you are a slave or master in Tevinter, everyone seems to share the same general apathy.

[Shechinah]

That's one person's opinion though. And he had a relatively cruel master. As we have seen in Tevinter, not all of them are as vile and cruel as Danarius. Erasthenes is such an example.

 

Erasthenes is more an indifferent master: he seemed to be neither cruel nor kind to his slaves.

 

It should also be noted that he did sell Marius to Nenealeus who I think was a gladiator trainer but I am not certain. I do doubt it was of Marius' choice nor for his benefit.   
 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I would argue that there can be happiness in slavery, though it's somewhat theoretical and greatly depends on the master. While a slave of course has no protections from her own master, she does have more protections from other people than one of the underclass in, say, Orlais, or a free but poor Tevinter citizen, because someone powerful could frown upon anything happening to them. Combined with the strong possibility of better lodgings (your quarters will likely be cramped, but are less likely to have problems with heat or roof leakage) and regular meals, a slave can legitimately have a better life than many other lower-class people in Thedas. The system of slavery is evil because it's heinously easy to abuse, but a genuinely good master can also easily make their slaves' lives more pleasant than they would be anywhere else, realistically speaking.

That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Happy slaves. Please!

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Just because there are people who solved themselves into indentured service to become the publically-owned slaves, does not mean they did so because they were happy about it. It was more that circumstance dictated that this option was preferable to having either themselves or their families starve in poverty, such as the case with Krem's father after he was put out of business.

As we saw in Dragon Age 2, there's no such thing as happiness in slavery, only what some slaves come to accept as their lot in life.

Orana: Everything was fine before today!
Fenris: It wasn't... you just didn't know any better.

--
Hawke: I have to wonder why you stayed with Danarius as long as you did?
Fenris: You have not been a slave. A slave does not dream of freedom, or wonder at possibilities. You think only of your master's desires and what will the next hour bring. It did not occur to me that I could be anything else until I had a taste of it.
Hawke: But there are are stories of slaves rebelling all the time, they did in Kirkwall?
Fenris: The ritual that gave me my markings also stripped me of my memory. Whatever I was before, may as well have never been. Perhaps if I knew, I might have felt differently?

That's post traumatic slave syndrome Fenris suffered from slavery.

[Shechinah]

*shrug* Depends on their condition. While I doubt any slave is truly happy to be a slave, they can find aspects of their condition (Such as material comfort) agreeable by comparison to alternatives, as shown by Fenris' sister.

I've read quite a few accounts of ex-slaves as part of my research and a surprising number considered slavery preferable in some ways to their current condition (To be more specific, the accounts were taken during the Great Depression and they missed being reliably well fed under slavery)

 

I'm reminded of the Daenerys chapters in A Song of Ice an Fire where there are some people who wish to be sold into slavery because they do not like having to live free because many do not know how as they've lived almost all of their lives as slaves and many because they do not have any other skills than those their slave role had them learn. There are, however, more slaves that are happy to be freemen. As was the case with the accounts taken during the Great Depression, to many it did not help that they experienced freedom during terrible conditions nor that it assumed that freeing them would free them from all the problems that slavery had caused.  

 

The difference seems to be the unhappy slaves were those who enjoyed better conditions such as upper household slaves and some pitfighters; they were well-fed and well-cared for. Most of the slaves that seemed happy be free seemed to be those that did not enjoy such good conditions such as the Unsullied and the slaves that held lower roles or were not considered as valuable amongst them being the other pit slaves that were tossed into the pits for the sole purpose of being torn apart by the pit's animals.     

[Red of Rivia]

I would argue that there can be happiness in slavery, though it's somewhat theoretical and greatly depends on the master. While a slave of course has no protections from her own master, she does have more protections from other people than one of the underclass in, say, Orlais, or a free but poor Tevinter citizen, because someone powerful could frown upon anything happening to them. Combined with the strong possibility of better lodgings (your quarters will likely be cramped, but are less likely to have problems with heat or roof leakage) and regular meals, a slave can legitimately have a better life than many other lower-class people in Thedas. The system of slavery is evil because it's heinously easy to abuse, but a genuinely good master can also easily make their slaves' lives more pleasant than they would be anywhere else, realistically speaking.

Like I said, there some dudes who likes to be slaves, cannot really treat it as something homogeneous.

[Iakus]

I would argue that there can be happiness in slavery, though it's somewhat theoretical and greatly depends on the master. While a slave of course has no protections from her own master, she does have more protections from other people than one of the underclass in, say, Orlais, or a free but poor Tevinter citizen, because someone powerful could frown upon anything happening to them. Combined with the strong possibility of better lodgings (your quarters will likely be cramped, but are less likely to have problems with heat or roof leakage) and regular meals, a slave can legitimately have a better life than many other lower-class people in Thedas. The system of slavery is evil because it's heinously easy to abuse, but a genuinely good master can also easily make their slaves' lives more pleasant than they would be anywhere else, realistically speaking.

A roof that doesn't leak and not getting murdered by your betters is a pretty low standard for "happiness"

 

Really worth literally putting your life in someone's hands?  Particularly a practicing blood mage?

[Xilizhra]

A roof that doesn't leak and not getting murdered by your betters is a pretty low standard for "happiness"

 

Really worth literally putting your life in someone's hands?  Particularly a practicing blood mage?

Is your life really in your hands alone as one of Thedas' most impoverished? How much freedom even exists in such a state?

[nightscrawl]

Erasthenes was not cruel, but he did seem to be relatively absent and indifferent to his slaves.
 
That's part of the reason that Calpernia eventually jumped at the chance to abandon him for Corypheus, as while Erasthenes was not a bad master, he did nothing to really encourage or promote her magic, such as not taking her as an apprentice even though he could have.
 
Calpernia also disliked how Magisters like her master would rather spend their time locked in their studies or collecting dusty relics of the Imperium's former glory, rather than do the hard work to try to change the Imperium for the better and bring those days back.
 
That's part of the problem with Tevinter society. As while they are not all everyone is cruel or decadent, they've all let themselves become extremely stagnant as a people, something that even Dorian states he dislikes about his homeland.
 
I suppose that regardless of whether you are a slave or master in Tevinter, everyone seems to share the same general apathy.

I wouldn't be surprised if this were the prevailing attitude. Most of the altus, including men like Dorian's father, Halward, are so focused on their own influence, advancement, and legacy that, even if they are not bad individuals themselves, they don't actively work to change the system. Or you will also have the types who believe that certain trappings are part of what comes along with being an altus and a magister -- "Magisters have slaves, so I will have slaves," -- or who don't really think about it in a moral sense, even if they do treat their slaves well, again, like Dorian's father.

 

This is why Dorian says he never gave it much thought until he went south and began living in a society where he was not surrounded by slaves. Of course, even though I can understand his mentality regarding the issue, it seems rather contrary to what we know of his rebellious personality. After all, it's not like there haven't always been abolitionists, even in the southern United States during the time of King Cotton. I could elaborate further, but this is not the thread for it.

[nightscrawl]

Is your life really in your hands alone as one of Thedas' most impoverished? How much freedom even exists in such a state?

 
This is the problem with many such arguments, and this is an argument that is made even today. "So-and-so has their feet; they can just walk out if they think it's so bad." Well, no, they really can't.
 
Let's just take a dirt-poor free human, living in the slums of Minrathous. They may have next-to-nothing, BUT they know the city, they know who to go to for scant work (if available), they know where to get food (when available) and water, they may have some small measure of shelter from the elements. They may also have family, including small children, that need to be provided for, or for whom travel would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. As terrible as they are, staying IN those slums is a small measure of security.
 
What security do they have if they leave the city? There is no guarantee of work if they travel to another city, where they have no friends or connections. They may have to learn new customs, and may face resentment from the native poors as a foreign intruder, coming to take scant resources away from them. The travel itself would be difficult, with little to no food or water and shelter, and ignorance of where to find such.
 
So what do we have? Stay in terrible conditions with a small measure of security, or strike out with only hope of finding something better. Practical arguments aside, such terrible conditions are not known for cultivating hope, but diminishing it, so it's no wonder that many just remain where they are.
 
And then some sell themselves into slavery, as Krem's father, because they see that as a another slightly larger measure of security.

 

This is the point that Dorian was trying to make during the slavery discussion.

[Iakus]

Is your life really in your hands alone as one of Thedas' most impoverished? How much freedom even exists in such a state?

No.  But saying "X is bad" does not make Y "good"  They're both bad, just different flavors of bad.

 

Not to mention Tevinter mages can and do murder slaves to use as mana batteries for their blood magic.  And it's simply winked at.  So I'd say you're screwed either way.

[Xilizhra]

No.  But saying "X is bad" does not make Y "good"  They're both bad, just different flavors of bad.

 

Not to mention Tevinter mages can and do murder slaves to use as mana batteries for their blood magic.  And it's simply winked at.  So I'd say you're screwed either way.

Note that I did not say that slavery was good.

[Illegitimus]

Perhaps, but... there some dudes in Tevinter who likes to be slave.

 

 

 

Yeah, I file that under "so what?".  People who have valuable enough skills or are otherwise secure enough in their owner's favour that they are not considered expendable and get luxuries and a kind of status may in fact be happy enough in their position that they wouldn't escape even if offered a risk-free way to do it.  But people in that kind of position are substantially outnumbered by people who would be easily replaced should someone decide to render them down for cooking lard.  

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

The system of slavery is evil because it's heinously easy to abuse, but a genuinely good master can also easily make their slaves' lives more pleasant than they would be anywhere else, realistically speaking.

I'd argue the system of slavery is evil b/c of it's infringement upon a person's autonomy and self-determination. That a person can become comfortable in their cage isn't really the point. People can adapt to almost any circumstance. Its still wrong to own another person. 

 

I don't place indentured servitude in the same category as slavery due to the contractual nature and legal protections and recourse involved. The signing of a term contract is actually an exercise of a person's autonomy, rather than the forcible taking of it. In theory, anyway. This can all be abused of course b/c no legal system is perfect or perfectly enforceable. But its still different than slavery, to me, which doesn't involve consent at any point.

[The Ascendant]

I hope that our choice of race and class will impact our origins, or will Bioware do another DA2 where we are human no matter what?
I imagine that mages would be sought after more than mundane ones, with Elves reserved for more specialised work and Qunari for manual labour. Humans are more common so they would be the basic stock. If the games and comics are an indications there seems to be a big demand for Elves in the Imperium. Elves who could now just as easily be spies for the Qunari or the Dread Wolf.

[Mistic]

If the games and comics are an indications there seems to be a big demand for Elves in the Imperium. Elves who could now just as easily be spies for the Qunari or the Dread Wolf.

 

I hope that it's a plot point in the future game. Not that we haven't seen our good share of elven spies already. Do you think Tallis may appear? As in the "Tallis from the DA2 DLC", not another spy with the same job-name.

[Red of Rivia]

I hope that it's a plot point in the future game. Not that we haven't seen our good share of elven spies already. Do you think Tallis may appear? As in the "Tallis from the DA2 DLC", not another spy with the same job-name.

This gonna be interesting to see, most Qunari spies are elves, probably this ''war'' will be very well supervised. I hope they do not burn ammunition pasting Solas right away, but everything is speculation, it is difficult to see what is coming.

[nightscrawl]

I'd argue the system of slavery is evil b/c of it's infringement upon a person's autonomy and self-determination. That a person can become comfortable in their cage isn't really the point. People can adapt to almost any circumstance. Its still wrong to own another person.

Yes! This is the argument I want to make to Dorian in the game!

I don't actually blame Dorian for his views in the conversation, but I do dislike the conversation itself because it only allows the Inquisitor to have emotional responses and arguments, rather than rational, thought-out ones, like what you posted. It is so frustrating.

[Heimdall]

I'm reminded of the Daenerys chapters in A Song of Ice an Fire where there are some people who wish to be sold into slavery because they do not like having to live free because many do not know how as they've lived almost all of their lives as slaves and many because they do not have any other skills than those their slave role had them learn. There are, however, more slaves that are happy to be freemen. As was the case with the accounts taken during the Great Depression, to many it did not help that they experienced freedom during terrible conditions nor that it assumed that freeing them would free them from all the problems that slavery had caused.

The difference seems to be the unhappy slaves were those who enjoyed better conditions such as upper household slaves and some pitfighters; they were well-fed and well-cared for. Most of the slaves that seemed happy be free seemed to be those that did not enjoy such good conditions such as the Unsullied and the slaves that held lower roles or were not considered as valuable amongst them being the other pit slaves that were tossed into the pits for the sole purpose of being torn apart by the pit's animals.

There's a reason that, after the end of the Civil War, many ex-slaves in North America stayed on the same plantations they had been slaves on as hired laborors. It was the skill set they had.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

The Tevinter should be annihilated by fire.