15912 réponses à ce sujet

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

If we have to be technical, the fault is on Solas. And we still don't know exactly what happened between the Imperium and Arlathan.
Beside, the Imperium enslaved and tortured elves as well as humans. Most of humans were suffering under the Imperium, and most of the current countries were created by struggling against it. They didn't hurt elves at all (before the Dales-Orlais war, and the elves have their good part of responsability on it).
They're poor and miserable because the strong oppresses the weak. It happened in Arlathan, it happened in the Imperium. and it happens now. It's not karma. Otherwise it was karma that bite the elves in the ass after they completely disregard of the second blight (which is absurdly moronic, since the blight could've ended their own country as well) and for nearly conquering Orlais, no? You talk as if elves are more innocent then humans, while every elven kingdom so far didn't really shine for their kindness.

Remember it's just my opinion: As far as I'm concerned the writers made the elves as bad guys to justify the "humans" enslaved them for their own good, because they want to feel better about themselves of not being the bad guys by making elves just as evil and they want to justify racism against elves because of it. It sounds familiar with history of slavery by justifying that type of evil, by coming up a lie to enslave people so they can feel better about themselves in the real world.

[The Elder King]

Remember it's just my opinion: As far as I'm concerned the writers made the elves as bad guys to justify the "humans" enslaved them for their own good, because they want to feel better about themselves of not being the bad guys by making elves just as evil and they want to justify racism against elves because of it. It sounds familiar with history of slavery by justifying that type of evil, by coming up a lie to enslave people so they can feel better about themselves in the real world.

Fair enough. I don't see it on the same way at all, expecially because if this was their intention they wouldn't do at the same time give a huge slap in the face on the Andrastian/Maker's faith and supporters, and I don't see what the writers or Bioware in general did in their life of so terrible to come up with this to make themselves feel better, but it's your opinion. Let's just agree to disagree.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Fair enough. I don't see it on the same way at all, expecially because if this was their intention they wouldn't do at the same time give a huge slap in the face on the Andrastian/Maker's faith and supporters, and I don't see what the writers or Bioware in general did in their life of so terrible to come up with this to make themselves feel better, but it's your opinion. Let's just agree to disagree.

Okey dokey.

[raging_monkey]

Well my 2Cents on this is elves had their own hand in their fall like it Or not. Their orignial culture imploded and was scavenged by a bunch of well dressed tribals, after being enslaved and after menagerie of morally horrendous events they got a nice patch of land that they as much a elf can I am HAVE TO ADMIT they lost because they chose to become a xenophobic group and caused a shitstorm which the human nation naturally would respond to a attack on their borders.

What happened after horrible yes and with the fracturing of the elven race even more so is majorly on their heads. Imo only thing they can do is literally learn to coexist or very least slowly and mean slowly adapt and cultrually merge their ideals so both benefit

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Well my 2Cents on this is elves had their own hand in their fall like it Or not. Their orignial culture imploded and was scavenged by a bunch of well dressed tribals, after being enslaved and after menagerie of morally horrendous events they got a nice patch of land that they as much a elf can I am HAVE TO ADMIT they lost because they chose to become a xenophobic group and caused a shitstorm which the human nation naturally would respond to a attack on their borders.

What happened after horrible yes and with the fracturing of the elven race even more so is majorly on their heads. Imo only thing they can do is literally learn to coexist or very least slowly and mean slowly adapt and cultrually merge their ideals so both benefit

It's impossible to coexist with them. Segregation is the best outcome for elves to recover and independence.

[Vit246]

Well my 2Cents on this is elves had their own hand in their fall like it Or not. Their orignial culture imploded and was scavenged by a bunch of well dressed tribals, after being enslaved and after menagerie of morally horrendous events they got a nice patch of land that they as much a elf can I am HAVE TO ADMIT they lost because they chose to become a xenophobic group and caused a shitstorm which the human nation naturally would respond to a attack on their borders.

What happened after horrible yes and with the fracturing of the elven race even more so is majorly on their heads. Imo only thing they can do is literally learn to coexist or very least slowly and mean slowly adapt and cultrually merge their ideals so both benefit

 

The elves lost half because of elves understandably feeling sour towards humans after Tevinter experience which then became an isolationist policy and half because Orlais is a frog-eating imperialist expansionist empire with a one true god complex. No doubt they always wanted to annex their territory and replace the heathen elven gods with the Chantry.

 

"coexist"

There is no coexistence with the human nations (except Rivain) who outlaw their culture and religion and don't respect them as political equals.

 

EDIT: And besides, its not like Red Crossing was the first and only border incident between the two countries.

Modifié par Vit246, 02 mai 2016 - 06:53 .

[The Elder King]

The elves lost half because of elves understandably feeling sour towards humans after Tevinter enslavement and half because Orlais is an imperialist expansionist empire with a one true god complex. No doubt they always wanted to annex their territory and replace the heathen elven gods with the Chantry.

 

"coexist"

There is no coexistence with the human nations (except Rivain) who outlaw their culture and religion and sovereignty and don't respect them as political equals.

Nope, they have their own fault (as Orlais surely had in that war) for what happened, Both sides were at fault and provoked in some way the other, and the elves did invade Orlais and nearly conquered their capital.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

The elves lost half because of elves understandably feeling sour towards humans after Tevinter enslavement which then became an isolationist policy and half because Orlais is a douchebag frog-eating imperialist expansionist empire with a one true god complex. No doubt they always wanted to annex their territory and replace the heathen elven gods with the Chantry.

"coexist"
There is no coexistence with the human nations (except Rivain) who outlaw their culture and religion and don't respect them as political equals.

Thank you!!!

[raging_monkey]

It's impossible to coexist with them. Segregation is the best outcome for elves to recover and independence.

and boom we are back to the same incident every bloody time. X will get a hardon then try tip Y. But hey of that's your thing

[Gervaise]

As an elf supporter I have to admit that the isolationist attitude seems to have been their downfall more than once.   Now it could just be propaganda by Tevinter but according to the story given in WoT2, page 37, when elven scouts were spotted at the edge of the Forest of Arlathan and their own soldiers started to report skirmishes with a non-human race, the initial reaction of the Tevinter leaders was to send emissaries to make peaceful contact with the elves but none of these returned alive.   This caused the Imperium to build a fortress near the border to keep permanent watch on the forest but not to make an immediate attack.    It was only after several decades of increasingly more frequent and violent encounters with the elves that Tevinter felt compelled to take action.

 

Now it could be that Tevinter weren't as forbearing as this history suggests but it also sounds a lot like the reaction of the sentinels to outsiders in the Arbor Wilds.    Clearly there was a much bigger settlement in Arlathan Forest but were all the elves ancient ones?   It seems unlikely in view of the subsequent increase in elven slaves when the city was destroyed.    Still, whatever the case, if the elves had been less hostile towards the humans, history might have been very different.   After all the nation of Tevinter has always been on good terms with the dwarves.   Admittedly that could be accounted for by their mutual interest in the lyrium trade but elves equally could have had knowledge and items that could have been traded rather than just seized had they been willing to deal with their human neighbours.  

 

All this took place 2000 years after the raising of the Veil and the elves withdrawal because of thinking the humans were associated with the loss of immortality (at least that is what the histories maintain).   However, Abelas was well aware that the humans were responsible for neither the quickening nor the destruction of their empire, so why weren't the elves of Arlathan aware the humans weren't responsible?      Clearly Tevinter was responsible for the destruction of the settlement in Arlathan Forest (which may have got its name because it was assumed the city at its centre was Arlathan rather than it being the case) but of course that wasn't anything like the real city of Arlathan that we see in the memories in the Crossroads.  

 

Another odd thing about this is that even the Dalish had found themselves not welcome in the Arbor Wilds and avoided it as a result, not even realising that they were being attacked by ancient elves, presumably because there were never any survivors to report it.   Still if the dwellers of Arlathan had been the same, where did all the modern elves come from?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

and boom we are back to the same incident every bloody time. X will get a hardon then try tip Y. But hey of that's your thing

It is impossible and even if they "coexist" "humans" would benefit from that by simply make laws to keep elves oppressed.

[Heimdall]

It is impossible and even if they "coexist" "humans" would benefit from that by simply make laws to keep elves oppressed.

So your entire position is based on the idea that humans and human society can't ever change?

[Iakus]

Remember it's just my opinion: As far as I'm concerned the writers made the elves as bad guys to justify the "humans" enslaved them for their own good, because they want to feel better about themselves of not being the bad guys by making elves just as evil and they want to justify racism against elves because of it. It sounds familiar with history of slavery by justifying that type of evil, by coming up a lie to enslave people so they can feel better about themselves in the real world.

They didn't really make elves the "bad guys" any more than humans or dwarves.  The whole point is that things are more complicated than simple black and white.  Elves have their saints and sinners just as much as humans.  The Tevinter Imperium  is full of blood mages and demon summoners, and has been ruled by them for a good long time.  But there are decent types like Dorian there too.And so it was with Arlathan too.  in fact, Arlathan, orzammar, and Tevinter liekly influenced each other a lot.

[Iakus]

It is impossible and even if they "coexist" "humans" would benefit from that by simply make laws to keep elves oppressed.

HUmans are quite capable of oppressing other humans too.

 

Or as Felessan pointed out, in an elven empire, who would scrub the floors?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Even if we don't consider her, there's the elven slaver in DAO. Again, some elves are in a position of power in Tevinter, and they enjoy their situation.

That's called being a house slave. And a house slave's job is to oppress their own people and kissing the master's posterior.

[The Elder King]

HUmans are quite capable of oppressing other humans too.

 

Or as Felessan pointed out, in an elven empire, who would scrub the floors?

Yeah. The Evanuris were as bad as the magisters, from what we know so far.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

They didn't really make elves the "bad guys" any more than humans or dwarves. The whole point is that things are more complicated than simple black and white. Elves have their saints and sinners just as much as humans. The Tevinter Imperium is full of blood mages and demon summoners, and has been ruled by them for a good long time. But there are decent types like Dorian there too.And so it was with Arlathan too. in fact, Arlathan, orzammar, and Tevinter liekly influenced each other a lot.

I don't even trust Dorian anyways. He said that he sees nothing wrong with slavery and have the nerve to apologize to Solas and he put Dorian in his place.

[The Elder King]

That's called being a house slave. And a house slave's job is to oppress their own people and kissing the master's posterior.

Lol, no, she wasn't a slave, she said so herself I think. She genuinely liked her position, she considered herfelf a citizen of Tevinter and couldn't care less about the elves. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

So your entire position is based on the idea that humans and human society can't ever change?

If you want a very deep conversation about this feel free to PM me.

[Iakus]

I don't even trust Dorian anyways. He said that he sees nothing wrong with slavery and have the nerve to apologize to Solas and he put Dorian in his place.

Actually he says he never gave it much thought before leaving Tevinter.  And finds things like the alienages to be equally bad if not worse than slavery.

[The Elder King]

It sems to me your position is a bit biased N7Phantom. You think every human is bad and responsible for what happened and happen to the elves, but you don't seem to think a elf can be bad, or if he oppresses his kind he/she does so just to please others and not for his/her own volition.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Lol, no, she wasn't a slave, she said so herself I think. She genuinely liked her position, she considered herfelf a citizen of Tevinter and couldn't care less about the elves.

She's still have a mentality of a house slave and she should be killed, she is an infection that needs to be eliminated.

[raging_monkey]

Still seeing straw on both sides here

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It sems to me your position is a bit biased N7Phantom. You think every human is bad and responsible for what happened and happen to the elves, but you don't seem to think a elf can be bad, or if he oppresses his kind he/she does so just to please others and not for his/her own volition.

They're projecting their hatred of white people onto it. Essentially, humans = white people and elves = black people. 

[The Elder King]

Still seeing straw on both sides here

what do you mean?