15958 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

Yeah, I'm not sure what definition of culture you're using.

 

The Roman empire was based on conquest and assimilating client peoples, that is true.  However, that describes most significant civilizations through history and isn't the sum total of any of them generally.

 

It really doesn't though, it just describes the empires built on conquest and assimilating. There are examples in history of civilizations that just were like there.

 

You treat "conquest" as some kind of sign of significance whereas to me it's just conquest.

 

Besides if they were so significant than how come Scotland curb stomped them with like pitchforks and stones?

 

I mean Rome couldn't assimilate like 250 miles to the north of them at any rate either Germany beat them up too.

 

They assimilated like parts of Spain eventually and slowly took over pieces of Greece although even then, it took like 7 tries to take Crete or something.

 

It wasn't an empire, barely, to be honest.

 

I mean heck, everyone ultimately rebelled anyway, so that assimilation wasn't even an assimiliation, except for Gauls and Romans making France I guess.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

If you think we should get along, then tell me why.

If by we you mean humanity in the real world, b/c it would lead to less violence against one another, fewer instances of misunderstandings escalating to fullblown fights, and would just all around be better for everyone. I'm honestly confused about why you are asking me why people should try to get along? Its better for both parties.

 

now when I say "get along" I don't mean a false, kumbiyah, glossing over of differences as if they don't exist. If there are grievances, they need to be aired out. I just think people, as a rule, should behave charitably toward their fellow man. And I mean that in the more philosophical sense, specifically, such as giving people the benefit of the doubt when they say something rather than assuming ill intent when there's no evidence of it. That kind of thing. The world and the human race would ultimately be better off with that attitude of charity being more prevalent.

 

The idea that you want to be friends with your neighbor, at least in the sense that you want to avoid doing them harm, should be something everyone should strive for with one another. The benefits of that are self evident, aren't they?

[Heimdall]

You and I both know diversity with "each other" will never work. It never has.

Except that it has?  Take the Muslim world for example, for centuries it was a religiously and ethnically diverse region, ruled by fairly lenient and tolerant version of Islam.  It's funny that we say groups like ISIS are "medieval", but if they were more like actual medieval muslims they wouldn't be so hateful or brutal.

[straykat]

I suggest N7Phantom become as boring as me and watch a week of war documentaries. It might make him a little optimistic about the current world.

 

A little.... I hope.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

hehe yes I would I would love them for if I were them I'd would do the same. Now that's not to say I don't defend myself maddness not to. It is better to be the better man rather a bitter man devoid of forgiveness and unwilling to entertain the idea of moving forward taking every failure as merely a error and then striving to remedy that error.

Such is the way of life and people.

Not trying to persuade you merely answering your inquiry

If that's how you see it that's fine. But I believe the "Love Thy Enemy" business is simply a method of submission.

[The Elder King]

I don't know why she'd be Mythal though. Mythal was dormant wasn't she? And Flemeth found her in the Towers age... well after Andraste.

 

Fen'Harel, I don't know. I don't see anything that screams "Maker". He uses things, but I don't see him as particularly creative or anything. Nothing to fit the archetype of a "maker", I mean. He doesn't even like being in the world, apparently. He reminds me of real eggheads who retreat inside themselves.

As I said, I don't think she was. It was just an hyphotetical.

He doesn't. The fact is that he doesn't have to. The Maker might be just a distorted version of Fen'harel and his action, as the elven legends on their gods were a distorted version of the truth. 

I'm not saying he is, just that there's this possibility. I actually thought there was a possibility of Fen'harel and the Maker of being two different versions of the same beings in the humans and elven faiths a long before DAI came out. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I suggest N7Phantom become as boring as me and watch a week of war documentaries. It might make him a little optimistic about the current world.

A little.... I hope.

If you think I'm wrong about the things I said and my beliefs then prove me wrong.

[straykat]

As I said, I don't think she was. It was just an hyphotetical.

He doesn't. The fact is that he doesn't have to. The Maker might be just a distorted version of Fen'harel and his action, as the elven legends on their gods were a distorted version of the truth. 

I'm not saying he is, just that there's this possibility. I actually thought there was a possibility of Fen'harel and the Maker of being two different versions of the same beings in the humans and elven faiths a long before DAI came out. 

 

I guess. But that's why I mentioned that Solas line earlier. Even what the Make is claimed to do seems to be above his paygrade. It's a whole other ballgame.

[straykat]

If you think I'm wrong about the things I said and my beliefs then prove me wrong.

 

I don't care about beliefs. I'm talking about looking at the actual world.... around you. It's probably not that bad where you're at. There's your proof. The world can be much worse. History shows just how bad, but as long as it's not right now, you should be happy. Not all worked up like this.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

You and I both know diversity with "each other" will never work. It never has.

It has in the US. We have people from every country in the world here, along with their descendants, and the vast majority have assimilated into the United States, while maintaining their own traditions from their heritage. We've had occasional flare ups of tension, particularly recently. Its not perfect. But considering the sheer amount of ethnicities, cultural heritage, and ideologies that we have present in this country, the fact we've only had one civil war (fought over the legal status of fellow americans, no less) in our history is pretty significant. Especially compared to other nations around the world.

 

This might also be my biased perception coming from that same military brat culture straykat mentioned a few pages back. When you are part of that, you know just how bad it can be and is in other places, and how good we have it here in the states. (Not that there aren't other places that have it good in the world, just sticking with the examples I can speak to personally.)

[The Elder King]

It really doesn't though, it just describes the empires built on conquest and assimilating. There are examples in history of civilizations that just were like there.

 

You treat "conquest" as some kind of sign of significance whereas to me it's just conquest.

 

Besides if they were so significant than how come Scotland curb stomped them with like pitchforks and stones?

 

I mean Rome couldn't assimilate like 250 miles to the north of them at any rate either Germany beat them up too.

 

They assimilated like parts of Spain eventually and slowly took over pieces of Greece although even then, it took like 7 tries to take Crete or something.

 

It wasn't an empire, barely, to be honest.

This was the Roman Empire at its maximum expansion :https://s-media-cach...dcfdf182444.jpg

 

It looks like an empire to me.

 

 

I guess. But that's why I mentioned that Solas line earlier. Even what the Make is claimed to do seems to be above his paygrade. It's a whole other ballgame.

The situation is a bit different for me. A 'Maker' can exist, and maybe he is the one mentioned by Andraste, just something he supposedly did was done by someone else (Fade). Or he exists/doesn't exist but what the Andrastian faith believes he's the Maker is something else (Fen'harel, maybe) Both theories can be right. The fact that Solas believes there's the chance there's a 'Maker's doesn't mean he's the same being humans worship and credits for many achievements.

[Seraphim24]

This was the Roman Empire at its maximu expansion :https://s-media-cach...dcfdf182444.jpg

 

It looks like an empire to me.

 

It doesn't to me, there's that, I guess.

[Heimdall]

It really doesn't though, it just describes the empires built on conquest and assimilating. There are examples in history of civilizations that just were like there.

 

You treat "conquest" as some kind of sign of significance whereas to me it's just conquest.

 

Besides if they were so significant than how come Scotland curb stomped them with like pitchforks and stones?

 

I mean Rome couldn't assimilate like 250 miles to the north of them at any rate either Germany beat them up too.

 

They assimilated like parts of Spain eventually and slowly took over pieces of Greece although even then, it took like 7 tries to take Crete or something.

 

It wasn't an empire, barely, to be honest.

Conquest is a sign of significance,whether a good or bad one.  The conquests of Rome was not simply a spread of military territory, but a spread of culture and ideas.  Even many of the peoples they failed to conquer (Like the germanic tribes) were heavily influenced by Roman ideas regarding military and state organization (Especially later on).  It has been said that that the germanic world was the most longstanding legacy of the Roman empire.  Its hard to find any single greater influence on the development of western culture than Rome.

[The Elder King]

It doesn't to me, there's that, I guess.

Can you give me some example of empires, then? 

[straykat]

This was the Roman Empire at its maximu expansion :https://s-media-cach...dcfdf182444.jpg

 

It looks like an empire to me.

 

 

The situation is a bit different for me. A 'Maker' can exist, and maybe he is the one mentioned by Andraste, just something he supposedly did was done by someone else (Fade). Or he exists/doesn't exist but what the Andrastian faith believes he's the Maker is something else (Fen'harel, maybe) Both theories can be right. The fact that Solas believes there's the change there's a 'Maker's doesn't mean he's the same being humans worship and credits for many achievements.

 

I'll agree. I just don't think it's Solas. As for the Fade, a lot of that is the Chant. I think it'd help to examine how even that came about first. Maybe she never said some of it.

[Seraphim24]

Conquest is a sign of significance,whether a good or bad one.  The conquests of Rome was not simply a spread of military territory, but a spread of culture and ideas.  Even many of the peoples they failed to conquer (Like the germanic tribes) were heavily influenced by Roman ideas regarding military and state organization.  It has been said that that the germanic world was the most longstanding legacy of the Roman empire.  Its hard to find any single greater influence on the development of western culture than Rome.

 

But my original point wasn't about the significance of Rome vis-a-vis everywhere else or Conquest, or Spain, or England, or Scotland, or Germany, or the "Western World" I made a statement in the total abstract divorced from western/eastern northern/southern, past, present, future.

 

You have been saying that in this sandbox Rome is a big ball, I'm not in the sandbox here when I say that they were pretty evil, that's just a statement in the generality, just based on a kind of like feeding people to animals in an arena is kinda messed up, whatever point in time or place and wherever it happens.

 

And I'd seriously question how big their ball is anyway.

[raging_monkey]

If that's how you see it that's fine. But I believe the "Love Thy Enemy" business is simply a method of submission.

well I if she has red hair and emerald eyes I "submit gladly"

Anyway some of my most hated enemies were that and you have is just relax.

Also I never said not implied subbmission

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

It has in the US. We have people from every country in the world here, along with their descendants, and the vast majority have assimilated into the United States, while maintaining their own traditions from their heritage. We've had occasional flare ups of tension, particularly recently. Its not perfect. But considering the sheer amount of ethnicities, cultural heritage, and ideologies that we have present in this country, the fact we've only had one civil war (fought over the legal status of fellow americans, no less) in our history is pretty significant. Especially compared to other nations around the world.

This might also be my biased perception coming from that same military brat culture straykat mentioned a few pages back. When you are part of that, you know just how bad it can be and is in other places, and how good we have it here in the states. (Not that there aren't other places that have it good in the world, just sticking with the examples I can speak to personally.)

But what happened to the Native Americans who were here first? Why they stuck on reservations? Why they have forgotten their language, their culture, their heratige?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

well I if she has red hair and emerald eyes I "submit gladly"

Anyway some of my most hated enemies were that and you have is just relax.

Also I never said not implied subbmission

That's what I thought.

[The Elder King]

I'll agree. I just don't think it's Solas. As for the Fade, a lot of that is the Chant. I think it'd help to examine how even that came about first. Maybe she never said some of it.

That's, possible, and an interesting theory. I guess we'll eventually find more. 

[straykat]

I don't find "Love Thy Enemy" easy or even desirable, but to say it's submission is stupid. Totally missing the point of why wise people have urged it. They didn't do it because they were submissive. That's so petty. They were shooting for something higher than that. Something we probably can't live up to yet, but still.. I don't need to crap on them just make myself sound more right.

[Seraphim24]

I mean honestly in the D&D setting  Thay was almost like comic evil, everyone understood them to be that way it wasn't like an "Oh, there just expressing themselves" sort of thing. You might RP one for comic non-serious mischief/fun but the whole point was that they were kind of off the rocker.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I don't care about beliefs. I'm talking about looking at the actual world.... around you. It's probably not that bad where you're at. There's your proof. The world can be much worse. History shows just how bad, but as long as it's not right now, you should be happy. Not all worked up like this.

If you want a deep conversation my inbox is always open.

[Heimdall]

But my original point wasn't about the significance of Rome vis-a-vis everywhere else or Conquest, or Spain, or England, or Scotland, or Germany, or the "Western World" I made a statement in the total abstract divorced from western/eastern northern/southern, past, present, future.

 

You have been saying that in this sandbox Rome is a big ball, I'm not in the sandbox here when I say that they were pretty evil, that's just a statement in the generality, just based on a kind of like feeding people to animals in an arena is kinda messed up, whatever point in time or place and wherever it happens.

 

And I'd seriously question how big their ball is anyway.

I don't understand your analogy.

[Seraphim24]

I don't understand your analogy.

 

"Western civilization" isn't the entire world, in the past, present, or future, that's all I'm saying.

 

I wasn't trying to turn it into pure-anti Rome either but like, to be completely fair, they were just kinda.. societally, sorta kinda.. mean.