^ I did an edit, if you didn't see that.
I merely raised it to show Dorian's use of the word "servants." I've no interest in discussing his views on the matter. However, I will say that the conversation as a whole, including the Inquisitor's responses, could have been done better.
What irked you about it?
I felt like I said what I wanted.. I laid into him a bit, but I still like him. I just wanted to hold my ground... he's probably never even seen that before.
On a sidenote, I think the one thing the South is right about is slavery.
But the thing Tevinter is right about is magic should be used for good.
Now if only one could combine the two. Which I think Andraste was alluding to all along. And maybe even Hessarian understood this himself. Or some magisters, at one point.
Good in the sense Andraste meant. "Magic is meant to serve man and never rule over him".
Service, helping, "champions of the just", etc.. All that noise.
The opposite of tyranny and slavery or victimizing people for their blood. There isn't any grey area here. It's clearly worse. It's not "good" in any sense, unless you're just some Edgelord.
The south is wrong to me for not giving mages much of a chance at all. They're extreme in the other direction (not as extreme as Qunari, but whatever. They still suck).
What irked you about it?
I felt like I said what I wanted.. I laid into him a bit, but I still like him. I just wanted to hold my ground... he's probably never even seen that before.
I will start by saying that I have experienced this myself with discussions about certain topics, so I approach it from that angle.
It seems to me that Dorian was trying to approach it from a more intellectual level and all of his remarks seem to be of that type. The chief thing I dislike about the conversation is that ALL of the first selection of Inquisitor options are emotion based, and 2/3 of the second selection are as well. You don't have the option to counter with any rational arguments, such as bringing up the issue of Tevinter slavers that go down south to kidnap people into slavery. In that vein, neither can Dorian counter that the South is also complicit in the slave trafficking, as there are lords that allow the slavers to come into their lands (as we saw in DAO), or inept governments that are ineffectual in preventing them (as we saw in DA2). Dorian makes the attempt to suggest that the Inquisitor doesn't really have the moral high ground, but because the conversation is so limited, his argument is weak at best, offensive at worst.
It could have been a strong back and forth that brought some real MEAT into the discussion, but it wasn't. Instead we get some moral outrage, defensiveness, and capitulation, without discussing anything of real significance.
As far as I know, Dorian's remarks are the same across origins. I consider myself somewhat fortunate in that I think it plays best if you are a non-mage Trevelyan -- a noble. You are essentially his peer in that situation, growing up in a life of privilege and having servants (or slaves) that see to your needs. However, I think all the rest of the origins, especially those that may have had some sort of hardship, are a bit more iffy in that regard, and I think Dorian comes across poorly as a result, especially if talking to an elven Inquisitor.
There is also some stuff related to Dorian's personality and personal history that I wish could be brought in as well, things that make it seem contrary, or at least surprising, that he has these views.
I have to headcanon a large part of this conversation, which is bothersome to me.
[edit]
I suppose David Gaider might say that the conversation was supposed to say something about Dorian, rather than be a real discussion about slavery. Perhaps it is to show that he is more Tevinter than he [Dorian] would care to admit, or accept.
Who knows, really?
Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 mai 2016 - 09:48 .
I agree that it wasn't very significant.
I just figured Gaider was trying to point out how entrenched Dorian was in that world... that he didn't consider some things. His complicity is kind of innocent. And that maybe he's the best Tevinter can display right now (on this subject).
The DAO example though is the act of desperate man during a (catastrophic) war. Not an act of a whole system. I don't think Loghain's act says much about the South itself. It's on his own head. I think the South should be blamed more for their alienages. That's the real corruption in the system.
I agree that it wasn't very significant.
I just figured Gaider was trying to point out how entrenched Dorian was in that world... that he didn't consider some things. His complicity is kind of innocent. And that maybe he's the best Tevinter can display right now (on this subject).
I don't usually like to contradict a character's writer in things, and I think it does make sense, but only if you consider half of who Dorian is, that is, the only child of a Tevinter noble house who has grown up surrounded by slaves. But that doesn't take into account Dorian's rebellious personality, his own personal conflicts with the system, and how he also chafes at being controlled. This is the RP reason that I have for my Inquisitor's angry response (that I have to pick, because the options are limited).
I've seen some people use this as a way to say that Dorian is self-absorbed, that he only wants to change Tevinter for himself, but I don't think that's true. I think it's one of those things that a person doesn't consider because they don't want to consider them.
Also, it's not like there haven't always been abolitionists, even amongst the elite class that benefits from slavery. They may be few, but they exist. Perhaps we'll run into some in Tevinter.
I think that Dorian is a product of his society. He says that he never even thought about the issue of slavery until he came south because it was simply an accepted part of life in Tevinter; he like everyone else who had only lived there didn't have anything to compare it with. Plus he would know that the only Archon who tried to abolish slavery was promptly assassinated. I'm assuming that wasn't Hessarian since he died in this sleep, I seem to recall. So if Hessarian apparently didn't have a problem with it, then there is little reason for anyone in Tevinter subsequently to question the state of affairs.
However, being in the south did make Dorian start to think about the whole thing. He may still be defending the institution of slavery but at least he is thinking to question its morality. To be honest, I think his point about alienages and slums was a valid one, just resented him telling my Lavellan he had no idea what it was like to be poor (a comment I think that was written principally for a human Inquisitor and no one though to adjust it for anyone else). If you consider the way servants are treated in Orlais, being beaten if the food wasn't praised enough by the guests, and the way a noble can murder an elven merchant with no penalty whatsoever under the law, and that Chevaliers not only train by turning loose recruits in the alienage but also believe they have a divine right to treat the lesser classes as they wish, including rape (see DAO and the Orlesian refugee in the market place), and the situation in Ferelden where it is a crime to kill someone when defending an elf and that a noble can invade a wedding ceremony, kidnap the bride and rape her friends, but the only way to get justice is to take it into your own hands, not to mention the inescapable poverty (because the system is stacked against you), then you can see why Dorian argues that being a slave, at least in his family's household, would be preferable or at the very least the south cannot claim the moral high ground on the issue.
Dude, I was on my phone in the car while driving while typing that, so I didn't have the luxury of fixing it immediately. I know damn well that they are slaves.Servants. You mean slaves.
Dude, I was on my phone in the car while driving while typing that, so I didn't have the luxury of fixing it immediately. I know damn well that they are slaves.
I'm sure you did.. it wasn't exactly all directed at you. I just used to it bring Corypheus back down to size.
Again still seeing the moral relativism(don't disagree naturally) but who decides that? If we do get a 232nd transfiguration it's possible we will get another south state or it so) be corrupt again.
And what in andrastes red Bush is a edgelord?
Edgelord... like someone who reads Encyclopedia Dramatica and laughs at the Paris shootings.
Possibly has a Halberd hanging on their wall.
edit: Scratch the last bit. Halberds are kinda cool. 
Can Tevinter be the place that has discovered the art of using freaking polearms? That would be fantastic.edit: Scratch the last bit. Halberds are kinda cool.
So a *******?Edgelord... like someone who reads Encyclopedia Dramatica and laughs at the Paris shootings.
Possibly has a Halberd hanging on their wall.
edit: Scratch the last bit. Halberds are kinda cool.
So a *******?
Looks censored.
Basically, it's just wannabe nihilism... people who say or revel in evil stuff, because they think it's edgy or shocking.
I think you're too much of a joker to be that... so I wasn't directing it at you. It's more of a hypothetical "you" in general. 
^ I did an edit, if you didn't see that.
I merely raised it to show Dorian's use of the word "servants." I've no interest in discussing his views on the matter. However, I will say that the conversation as a whole, including the Inquisitor's responses, could have been done better.
I suspect it's probably akin to the same kind of insane troll logic that Dorian mentions, that claims that mages don't rule in Tevinter, because the Magisterium rules Tevinter. Ignoring the incredibly obvious fact that the Magisterium happens to be entirely compromised of mages.
Probably the correct social etiquette in Tevinter is to claim that they are servants, because they work for them. That most of their servants happen to be bought and owned by them, is yet another amusing technicality to mull over as they get you wine.
I ment a a-hole and I know I was just curious to the termLooks censored.
Basically, it's just wannabe nihilism... people who say or revel in evil stuff, because they think it's edgy or shocking.
I think you're too much of a joker to be that... so I wasn't directing it at you. It's more of a hypothetical "you" in general.
Servants. You mean slaves.
To be fair, it could have meant servants. They had both.
EDIT: Unless of course that actual codex entry says slaves and you meant that the post was a typo? The codex I'm remembering sounded like it was written by acolytes, to me.
Not necessarily though. His servant's recollections make him seem much more humane and not that bad of a person. It's the whispers from "Dumat" that drove him nuts.
Still oversaw the massive blood sacrifice to enter the Fade, though. He may not have considered that evil, but I sure do.
That was my point though. He didn't do the sacrifice until after hearing the whispers of "Dumat".To be fair, it could have meant servants. They had both.
Still oversaw the massive blood sacrifice to enter the Fade, though. He may not have considered that evil, but I sure do.
That was my point though. He didn't do the sacrifice until after hearing the whispers of "Dumat".
And my point is he still did it. So, still not someone I'd consider a good guy, regardless of his justification or how the people who (apparently) respected him thought of him. And I don't think we have the evidence to consider him mad (in the sense of not being able to tell right from wrong) till after his fall from the Golden City and the resulting amnesia and other mental issues.
The one who whispered the requirement for the sacrifice to him was *also* evil, don't get me wrong. But Cory still bears responsibility like the other high priests. Maybe more, if he was masterminding the whole plan, instead of just taking part and leading the actual entrance into the Fade at the end of the ritual.
That said, I do find Corypheus interesting and even sympathetic in some respects, such as the fact he's a man who's responsible for the downfall of the country and people he loved. They're still around, but they're in decline and that's something painful for a patriot to see of their nation and people. Could say he's responsible for the downfall of his own religion, too, since his actions seemingly corrupted his own gods. He was lured into stepping on a landmine that blew up everything he cared about. And he got mutated into a darkspawn on top of it. I feel pity for him.
This is exactly how I feel about Corypheus, he's not a good guy but not a caricature.And my point is he still did it. So, still not someone I'd consider a good guy, regardless of his justification or how the people who (apparently) respected him thought of him. And I don't think we have the evidence to consider him mad (in the sense of not being able to tell right from wrong) till after his fall from the Golden City and the resulting amnesia and other mental issues.
The one who whispered the requirement for the sacrifice to him was *also* evil, don't get me wrong. But Cory still bears responsibility like the other high priests. Maybe more, if he was masterminding the whole plan, instead of just taking part and leading the actual entrance into the Fade at the end of the ritual.
That said, I do find Corypheus interesting and even sympathetic in some respects, such as the fact he's a man who's responsible for the downfall of the country and people he loved. They're still around, but they're in decline and that's something painful for a patriot to see of their nation and people. Could say he's responsible for the downfall of his own religion, too, since his actions seemingly corrupted his own gods. He was lured into stepping on a landmine that blew up everything he cared about. And he got mutated into a darkspawn on top of it. I feel pity for him.
Even without all of that, his first words out of the crypt in Legacy is to demand fealty from me. He's an authoritarian jerk, at the very least.
Even without all of that, his first words out of the crypt in Legacy is to demand fealty from me. He's an authoritarian jerk, at the very least.
Well, he's a magister and he came out of stasis in a Tevinter building without any idea of how much time had passed and the fact that Tevinter no longer held authority over the area. In his day and situation, his demand of your fealty, if you had been raised in his culture as well like he thought you were, would actually have been legitimate.
He's still authoritarian, but he did actually have that authority at one point in time. He demands it in Legacy cus, as far as he's aware, he actually has a right to it.
Not arguing the jerk part. lol
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