15947 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

Well, he's a magister and he came out of stasis in a Tevinter building without any idea of how much time had passed and the fact that Tevinter no longer held authority over the area. In his day and situation, his demand of your fealty (which I interpret as a demand you acknowledge his authority over you) was actually legitimate.

 

He's still authoritarian, but he did actually have that authority at one time. He demands it in Legacy cus he thinks he still does.

 

That authority is never real, without force. It only existed in his day because of that. He probably thinks he holds it by default or birthright though. That's the worst kind of authoritarian to me.

 

And he has the same problem well into Inquisition. Even after knowing his world is gone.

 

So I don't even have to talk about his other problems. this is just one flaw that makes me dislike him.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

And he has the same problem well into Inquisition.

Oh yeah, he's had more than enough time to cope and change his tune. At the point of Inquisition, he's holding on to the past, back when he had the position of authority he did, regardless of the fact that that no longer has any real meaning in the modern world. In spite of it, even. He's acting out of hubris mixed with desperation at that point.

[raging_monkey]

This is exactly how I feel about Corypheus, he's not a good guy but not a caricature.

I've long held that Calpernia and Samson were intended to represent two sides of Corypheus' character. One the earnest (If morally questionable) nationalist, the other the nihilistic jilted believer, the monster he has been made into.

agreed

[Lulupab]

Also Bioware better show the flying cows over Minrathous or we riot! 

[nightscrawl]

^ I just love Dorian's tone in that line. " ... All right that one's true. But the cows didn't have wings!" So, I guess no Red Bull in Thedas.

[Sifr]

That authority is never real, without force. It only existed in his day because of that. He probably thinks he holds it by default or birthright though. That's the worst kind of authoritarian to me.

 

It's even more presumed and imagined authority than he give him credit for, as wasn't his entire motivation for going to the Golden City in the first place to renew the faith of the Old Gods, that had long since begun to wane even in his time?

 

We're lead to believe that Corypheus was a true believer and zealot who rose to become the High Priest of Dumat, but was dismayed to see his people abandoning their faith. He was probably frustrated that his position, that once held the prestige and esteem worthy of a Pope, had devolved into that of a glorified guidance counsellor that no-one really took all that seriously.

[Gervaise]

It is not entirely clear why he entered the Golden City.   It seems from the codex by his slave that he was cutting himself ever deeper and more frequently that suggests his spells, specifically his priest spells, weren't having the desired result.    Dumat had gone silent on him (ironic huh?).    So ignoring what Andraste and Hessarian say, both of which are affected by political propaganda, it would seem that the old gods had fallen silent and were not responding to the prayers of the faithful even before the 1st Blight.    In which case Cory's mission was as much to find out what the hell was going on as simply personal ambition.   However, having found that nothing was as he expected when he got there, specifically the place was empty, and on waking discovering that the world was worshipping a Maker who also failed to respond to prayers and he knew definitely wasn't in the "City", Cory decided he would give the world a pro-active god who did take action and respond to prayers.   

 

I've just been replaying the Temple of Dumat (Under her Skin) and it is clear he is disillusioned with a world that seems to have lost the light of wisdom and interestingly criticises the fact that Altus rule Tevinter whilst ignoring the talents of truly gifted mages like Calpurnia.   This would suggest that in part he does genuinely support her ideas for elevating the slaves of Tevinter, but in his case probably only the gifted magical ones.   

 

Another thing that strikes me is that he doesn't seem convinced that Dumat is dead.    When he called out to him in Legacy, I thought that was just the result of his confusion and that perhaps Dumat had been killed after his imprisonment.    However, WoT2 confirms that the Wardens only discovered the existence of sentient darkspawn after the death of Dumat, which seems odd in itself if they had been generals in his army or in any way fighting among the darkspawn ranks for nearly 200 years.  Just what were Corypheus and his ilk doing during the 1st Blight?    

 

Then in Under her Skin one of his memories describes how he tried the old rituals to call on Dumat and got not response.   So again he clearly did not believe the stories about Dumat's death and wanted to check it out for himself.    Essentially his loyalty to Dumat outweighed any ambitions of his own and it is only when the god fails to respond that he feels free to advance his own claim to divinity.    Still his caution is understandable, particularly if he is aware of his own effective immortality, which he must be seeing as how he survived Hawke "killing" him.   If he can survive being killed by jumping to a Grey Warden, why shouldn't Dumat have done so?

 

Finally he calls out to Dumat in desperation at the end of DAI.    Despite everything he is still clinging to his faith in Dumat.    Were the old gods just demons playing with humanity, who got bored with the idea, or something more?    I hope the next game gives us some answers.

[Andromelek]

I think the Old Gods existed (as there are statues that help to recognize them), but were sealed away for some reason long ago, without them, is likely that it was something else what called them to the Black City, if I recall correctly, those priests never actually met them, in fact Razikale's temple on JoH said they abandoned them long ago.

I find odd the whole matter with Dumat, of all the Archdemons he is the only one who doesn't have a known killer nor any stuff made with his remnants, aside from that, when Corypheus pleas to him during Legacy, he does get a power boost, but when he tries on Inquisition he is only answered with silence. One has to wonder if Dumat could still be alive, I think the Dark Ritual is not something one would invent from night to morning, of course the elves had some means to be hard to kill but how would they know to strip a soul into an unborn child through the Blight?

[Hellion Rex]

At this stage, it appears we have more questions than answers, unfortunately.

[Hellion Rex]

I think the Old Gods existed (as there are statues that help to recognize them), but were sealed away for some reason long ago, without them, is likely that it was something else what called them to the Black City, if I recall correctly, those priests never actually met them, in fact Razikale's temple on JoH said they abandoned them long ago.

I find odd the whole matter with Dumat, of all the Archdemons he is the only one who doesn't have a known killer nor any stuff made with his remnants, aside from that, when Corypheus pleas to him during Legacy, he does get a power boost, but when he tries on Inquisition he is only answered with silence. One has to wonder if Dumat could still be alive, I think the Dark Ritual is not something one would invent from night to morning, of course the elves had some means to be hard to kill but how would they know to strip a soul into an unborn child through the Blight?

At this point, I think the True Old Gods and the Archdemons aren't the same thing. Neither do I think the old gods lead Cory and company to the City.

[raging_monkey]

At this stage, it appears we have more questions than answers, unfortunately.

that's the beauty of it.

"All is unknown yet permitted"

[Andromelek]

At this point, I think the True Old Gods and the Archdemons aren't the same thing. Neither do I think the old gods lead Cory and company to the City.

That wouldn't make sense, on the Fade's notes it says that a dude identified Dumat as the Archdemon because he saw his statues before, he just had a sick skin but was the same, so how could they not be the same thing?

[Hellion Rex]

That wouldn't make sense, on the Fade's notes it says that a dude identified Dumat as the Archdemon because he saw his statues before, he just had a sick skin but was the same, so how could they not being the same thing?

That doesn't really convince me.

[straykat]

Even if they weren't the archdemons, then there's just plain demonic things involved... like the altar in Legacy. That's not really better.

[Asdrubael Vect]

 Neither do I think the old gods lead Cory and company to the City.

It was in a deap roads, in a Heidrun Thaig

 

dwarves was dig to Dumat tomb and release him via miners was turned ghouls and darkspanws was create new ones darkspawns with dwarfs

A letter to Merchant Levnog, predating the First Blight:

Levnog,

More of the brand refuse to make the journey to Heidrun Thaig. Rumors of the incident has spread, and no amount of coin or beatings could persuade them. I asked Miner Vassov to send the isana shipment with his own crew, but have yet to receive a reply. I inquired if anyone else has heard from their Heidrun contacts. Nothing. I worry that it has something to do with those creatures that wear the faces of the dead. Apparently the king himself is leading a troop of warriors to check the situation.

Needless to say, the shipment will be late. I just hope it arrives at all.

Jodon

 

 

this is how first blight was started and dwarves as elves always was claimed that it was not a some magisters who start blight as created darkspawns

 

and yeah we know that blight and knowledge about blight was exist in the times of Arlathan

 

 

Old Gods-Archdeamons is a corrupted ancient elves who shapeshift into high dragons and stayed that way as fight with other evanuris who inprison them in undeground tombs

[raging_monkey]

Seems pure speculative

[Gervaise]

I think that whatever the old gods and the cause of the Blight turns out to be you can rest assured it will be different to what we have previously been led to believe.   I'd always thought that the elven gods were likely either very powerful spirits or very powerful elves (now it looks like it is probably both) but the reveal about them was that they weren't benign guides of the elven people, although it is possible that's how they started their rise to power.    There is a degree of truth in the old Dalish legends but there are inaccuracies too.

 

Now most of what we know about the old gods comes from the Chant and World of Thedas (which is meant to be from the perspective of a Chantry scholar).   However, there are an increasing number of hints that what has previously been thought of as history is likely only religious and political propaganda, with a fair bit of popular folklore thrown in.   Essentially we know practically nothing about early human history (so potentially plenty of opportunity for a reveal there with us going to Tevinter) and little about the worship of the old gods.    The Chant gives a plausible reason why the Neromenians and other tribes turned from worship of the Maker but equally we have the existence of ancient religious practices among the Rivaini and Avaar that make you wonder if the Maker ever did feature as anything more than one god among many.   The Chant says the Maker imprisoned the old gods beneath the earth but when exactly?     We have one account that suggests the person recognised Dumat has his god when he arose as an archdemon, when other accounts suggest they always spoke to their faithful from the Fade and we are told by the Chant this is because the Maker had already imprisoned them as punishment for leading humans astray.    So was the idea of gods as dragons a hark back to the earlier time of the Evanuris or did the old gods once fly freely about Thedas during the time the humans rose to power?

 

Even the origins of the Blight have been thrown into question.    This was first started when Corypheus claimed that the Golden City was already black when he and his companions arrived there.    Then there is the existence of red lyrium, found in a thaig that pre-dated modern dwarves and thus the First Blight.   Red lyrium is infected with the Blight, so it seems clear that the Magisters were not responsible for its creation but, like Corypheus insists, they merely discovered it.   Then there are various other hints in the Temple of Mythal and Trespasser about something horrific that needed shutting away with magic.

 

Finally there is the history of Andraste.    Since it is clear now that virtually nothing in the Chant bears any resemblance to the historical facts concerning her birth, childhood, rise to power and capture, how do we know that anything in the Chant is a genuine reflection of what she taught?    How much was added later by the Chantry (either Orlesian or Imperial) and what might have been omitted from political expediency (just as the Canticle of Shartan and Silence were)?    So I really don't hold much store about what it says about the old gods or the Blight and await new revelations.

[Reznore57]

The Cult of the Old Gods is a tiny bit strange , we really lack informations as those Gods have zero mythology about them.

There's no tales of Dumat great deeds or whatever.Those Gods don't even have a place in the story of the world , they didn't do anything beyond *in theory* teaching humans blood magic and giving some kind of prophetic dreams to their followers.

 

The Chant of Light gave them a bit more substance with their conflict with the Maker , but I sort of doubt that was part of ancient Tevinter teachings.

Our Gods were defeated by a more powerful god doesn't sound like something Tevinter would be fond of.

 

The fact that the Maker was known before the Old Gods is a throwaway line we got in some lore book and by David Gaider , the issue is ...it isn't properly reflected in the lore.

The thing we get from the ancient religion are stuff like the Avaars , who don't worship just one God but have a pantheon and turns out it's spirits they worship.

As for the Maker and the proto Tevinter well they were into dragons even before the Old Gods , that's why they jumped on that.

So yes perhaps the "Maker" was known a long time ago but if so I believe it has little to do with the Maker taught by the Chantry.

 

The main fishy thing is the elves and Old Gods , because the Old Gods were burried beneath Thedas , and the humans only learn about them once they got in Thedas.

We know Solas and Mythal are well aware of them , so they were a thing for the ancient elves but they weren't worshipped as Gods .

There's no talk of Dumat and co in ancient elven lore .

You have to wonder why those Gods were talking with humans , but not with the elves .The elves also had a fondness for dragons afterall.

 

Then there's also the story of the teaching of magic , Tevinter says they learned blood magic and the likes from the Old Gods.

But there's numerous hints it isn't so , and they learned from the elves.

Throw in some ancient elves could shapeshift into dragons , and the fact that humans believed their heroes were reborn as dragons , you can see a people who would pee their pants in glee and wonder if they met a shapeshifter.

[straykat]

I feel like all of this detracts from the important issues.

 

I don't care about the Maker, the Old Gods, or the Creators really. I care about the history of slavery and rebellions. This is what makes a side wrong or right to me.

 

I always liked that line from the DAI trailer.. "All of this happened because of fanatics and arguments about the next world. It's timing we start caring about this one."

 

The only exception to me is the Qunari.... they think they know this world so much as to define every nook and cranny (at least when it's convenient for them). That's probably even more annoying than the above.

[Lulupab]

Well speaking of slaves, what do you guys think of Dorian comparing slavery to ****** poor alienages and slums? Because apparently these don't exist in Tevinter.

 

Assuming most slaves are Elves, he almost convinced me. I mean they equally seem bad and I think you can't get rid of both, you are always stuck with one of them. You either have slaves or hopeless poverty.

[straykat]

I see his point, but even the city elves (in Denerim) would disagree with that. Their lives still suck, but they see themselves as more than slaves. And Loghain's outright slavery was viewed as worse by all involved.

 

Still equally powerless though. Doesn't look like they get good employment or leadership opportunities (at least not until the HoF).

[nightscrawl]

Well speaking of slaves, what do you guys think of Dorian comparing slavery to ****** poor alienages and slums? Because apparently these don't exist in Tevinter.

 

Assuming most slaves are Elves, he almost convinced me. I mean they equally seem bad and I think you can't get rid of both, you are always stuck with one of them. You either have slaves or hopeless poverty.

 

Tevinter may not have alienages specifically, but they do have slums filled with poor humans and elves. There are also refugees that were misplaced as a result of Qunari raids.

 

Unlike some people, I've never thought that he was trying to justify slavery or anything along those lines. His point -- particularly effective to a Trevelyan Inquisitor -- is to broaden the PC's scope in regard to slavery. He is more or less correct. I've seen people say, "Oh whichever poor person can just leave." Well no, they can't. If they did, they would likely be exchanging one version of poverty for another. By staying put, they at least have the small sense of security that comes with knowing how the city works, where to get food (when available), how to find limited work (when available), they may have shelter, and so on. Leaving leaves a lot to chance. It's accepting the bad thing that you know, versus not risking the bad thing you don't know.

 

However, it is a needless complication. There is a banter that I very much would have liked to respond to in the game:

Cole: Dorian, what's a slave?
Dorian: Festus bei umo canavarum.
Cole: But you said I could ask questions.
Dorian: That's true. Just... go ask the Inquisitor this one.

 

What is a slave? You don't need to go into drawn out moral arguments because it's very simple. A slave is a person that is owned as property. That's it. Whether they are treated well, or not, is beside the point. To own another person is to strip away the very essence of their humanity, it is to have absolute control over every aspect of their lives.

 

I would have liked to continue the conversation, like so:

Inquisitor: Gee, thanks, Dorian. *Sigh.* Cole, a slave is a person that is owned by someone else; they're someone's property.

Cole: But people aren't things.

Inquisitor: No, they're not.

Cole: Then how can a person be property?

Inquisitor: They can't be, and they shouldn't be, because they're people.

 

There is potentially more, but that is the gist of it.

 

That is the distinction that is lacking in the slavery discussion in DAI.

[Hellion Rex]

I feel like all of this detracts from the important issues.

I don't care about the Maker, the Old Gods, or the Creators really. I care about the history of slavery and rebellions. This is what makes a side wrong or right to me.

I always liked that line from the DAI trailer.. "All of this happened because of fanatics and arguments about the next world. It's timing we start caring about this one."

The only exception to me is the Qunari.... they think they know this world so much as to define every nook and cranny (at least when it's convenient for them). That's probably even more annoying than the above.

I really don't care about the slavery or rebellion side of Tevinter, or don't consider them to be what you dub the "important issues". What's important to *me* is their culture which we haven't gotten to really delve into personally. I want to know more of their religion and how magic has shaped their culture.

[Gervaise]

The Qun also muddy the waters a bit because whilst technically their citizens aren't slaves, if they try to leave, they are hunted down, just as the slave hunters do.    Also, as Solas points out, they have little freedom of thought and their lives are very regimented.    Anyone who persistently challenges their authority has their mind destroyed with qamek.   

 

I'd also argue that in southern Thedas there are nobility in particular who treated commoners as if they were no different to slaves.    Because of an accident of birth, they see themselves as having the right to treat those weaker than themselves as they please, including murder and rape.    The Chevaliers are particularly guilty of this, although this aspect has been rather played down in game since DAO.    So, yes, slavery strips away your humanity but so does regarding someone as a thing you can beat to death or sexually abuse on a whim, or even simply walking past and ignoring someone starving to death on the streets when you have the means to save them.

 

There is also a great deal of similarity between the Magisters and the Chevaliers/Orlesian nobility in that both think they have their position by Divine Right.    The Maker gave them their abilities/position in society and thus any challenge to their authority is an offence against the Maker.    This is where religion is important in the scheme of things because it can either challenge this viewpoint or endorse it.    The Chantry has for the most part done the latter.   In the Imperium the idea is currently that the Maker bestowed magic upon them and that gives them the right to rule, just as in earlier times the old gods bestowed their wisdom on the Dreamers.    

 

I think understanding just how the early Neromenians rose to power and their relationship to their gods is important in shaping society in the future.   Dorian clearly thinks the same because he acknowledges that a lot of the power invested in the Magisterium and the Altus is based off the idea that they brought low the Empire of the Elves and their magic is superior to all others.   Whereas the truth is increasingly appearing to be that they built their Imperium on knowledge scavenged from the ruins of the elves and that is what gave them their superiority of their contemporaries plus some fortuitous natural disasters that could be attributed to the intervention of their gods.    According to Tevinter legend, Barindur was destroyed by Dumat when their ruler insulted his priest, whereas according to Solas it was a volcanic eruption.     Along with discovery the ancient elves weren't so innocent and peaceful as the Dalish maintain, I think we are going to find that the Ancient Tevinter weren't nearly so powerful as the modern Tevene's have liked to imagine them to be.   They just got lucky.   

[straykat]

I really don't care about the slavery or rebellion side of Tevinter, or don't consider them to be what you dub the "important issues". What's important to *me* is their culture which we haven't gotten to really delve into personally. I want to know more of their religion and how magic has shaped their culture.

 

I didn't say just Tevinter. I mean everything. I'm just focused on ethics and drama. That goes for all literature really. It's one thing I hate about a lot of fantasy.. many authors are trying to do their version of Tolkien-esque world building. And it's not even fun from an RPG standpoint. PnP GMs are all about world building too, but they wouldn't get much playtime if they went on and on about it. People want to live and play in their settings. Not forage through them.

 

Somewhere along the way, CRPG campaign creators were left to their own devices.. and the storytelling became very one sided. It's just them flooding people with codexes and slowly "revealing" how they constructed their world. 

 

And this is supposedly drama. It's not. It's weak. Either that or I have to be a big fan of someone to appreciate it. Which I'm not here. Maybe Kirkbride in TES. Maybe because I don't understand him half of the time. He sounds pretty high.

 

I fear I'm gonna get it much worse from Weekes. It seems he picked all the characters that delved in "high level" stuff (Cole, Bull, Solas), along with writing a lot of poetry codexes. Great.