15952 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

I think Dorian implies there are no slums or alienages in Tevinter. If you can't provide for yourself you either sell yourself to slavery or you are a very easy target to forced slavery because you cannot defend yourself.

[Lord of War]

Alienages do seem like they'd be pretty, ah, wasteful, to the average Tevinter magister, yes.

[nightscrawl]

I think Dorian implies there are no slums or alienages in Tevinter. If you can't provide for yourself you either sell yourself to slavery or you are a very easy target to forced slavery because you cannot defend yourself.

 

While all alienages are (typically) slums, not all slums are alienages. There can certainly be slums where both humans and elves live in poverty. Alienages are ghettos specific to elves.

[Lulupab]

While all alienages are (typically) slums, not all slums are alienages. There can certainly be slums where both humans and elves live in poverty. Alienages are ghettos specific to elves.

 

In that case, the people living in these slums need to be Tevinter citizens otherwise they are still easy target for forced slavery. If you just mean poor neighborhoods, then they most likely exist. But I seriously doubt they are disease ridden, filthy and walled from rest of the city.

[nightscrawl]

^ Slums are a "a thickly populated, run-down, squalid part of a city, inhabited by poor people." They don't necessarily have to be disease ridden and walled off, though I grant that disease is a result from filthy, squalid living conditions.

 

So yes, I absolutely do think it is likely that Tevinter, especially its largest and oldest city, Minrathous, has slums. There are also refugees from Qunari raids there, adding to the problems of overcrowding.

 

I suppose I don't understand why this is in question. People who live there are vulnerable from many sources -- hunger, filth, violence, coercion (read: being forced into prostitution or other such activity to survive), and yes, slavers as well. It's not like forced slavery is the only danger that they face.

 

There are likely to be varying degrees of living conditions for people. For example, Krem's father was a tailor and businessman (that is, he sold the clothing he made). Their means were likely modest, but I doubt that they were living in a slum before the business went under. There will be ranges of neighborhoods, just like there are in real life.

[Iakus]

I think Dorian implies there are no slums or alienages in Tevinter. If you can't provide for yourself you either sell yourself to slavery or you are a very easy target to forced slavery because you cannot defend yourself.

Asunder mentions an alienage in the Tevinter city of Teraevyn

[Hellion Rex]

Oooooo, so excited to have a city elf mage. I'm gonna be so disappointed if we don't get that option. I'm gonna be raising all kinds of hell during that playthrough.

I'll probably run that one after my human mage one. Also kinda interested if our House will be well known to us or well known in game. Maybe House Amladaris? That'd be interesting, perhaps a story to redeem our fallen House, especially if word gets out that we were related to Corypheus.

[raging_monkey]

Its a fair way to bridge companions Maybe empathize the stigma of being related among the people to a extent.

[Xilizhra]

People do so enjoy forgetting that the Dalish Inquisitor can comment about different elven gods as you approach the walls with their image.

Well... two of them.

[Qun00]

So?

[Gervaise]

There are definitely slums in Tevinter and specifically defined "elven slums" since that is where Alexius found Dorian "with the whores" in a house of ill repute.   It was presumably the fact that Dorian had sought refuge in an elven slum that kept his family from discovering him after he ran away from the small, strict school they had sent him to in Minrathous.   If anything Dorian's comments about what it is like to be in poverty may actually have been based on what he learnt while he was there.   There also seems the suggestion that Dorian was committing an offence by being there because Alexius says that "instead of calling the Templars", he dragged him back to the Gilded Quarter.   Or may be it was simply that Dorian was under age and so Alexius was aware he should have been in school or under the protection of an adult, so normally it would be a matter for the Templars to take him into custody while they made enquiries as to who was responsible for his care.   (However, that sounds too much like modern society rather than a medieval one).

 

I think Dorian's discussions with the Inquisitor are based off the idea that the south considers themselves superior to Tevinter because they don't have slavery and he is pointing out that the human slums and elven alienages are little better than slavery for the southern poor.  The alienages in particular have walls and gates both to keep the elves in as well as the rest of society out and elves are not allowed to travel freely from city to city but have to get special permission.   This was true in DAO for our city elf potential spouse and also in Masked Empire, where when Gaspard is questioning an elf, the latter says "I have a pass to the merchant district" and offers to show it because he is clearly afraid of reprisals if it is thought he left the elven alienage without permission.   So the elves in the alienages clearly have a lot less freedom of movement than the majority of slaves in Tevinter.     Many servants, elven servants in particular, are treated badly in the south even though they are essentially "free", which is why Dorian feels it fair to point out that the prospects of a slave in a family such as his own are probably a lot better than those of a peasant in the slums whether in the north or the south but particularly the southern elven alienages.

[nightscrawl]

Oooooo, so excited to have a city elf mage. I'm gonna be so disappointed if we don't get that option. I'm gonna be raising all kinds of hell during that playthrough.

I'll probably run that one after my human mage one. Also kinda interested if our House will be well known to us or well known in game. Maybe House Amladaris? That'd be interesting, perhaps a story to redeem our fallen House, especially if word gets out that we were related to Corypheus.

 

I think you are assuming too much based on the potential location of the game.

 

Even if a large chunk of the game takes place in Tevinter, that doesn't mean that we will have a Tevinter origin. If we do have a Tevinter origin, we might not be in a position to have a house. There are human and qunari slaves there, as well as elves, and there are also mage slaves. Being a mage in Tevinter isn't automatically a golden ticket to a better life.

 

The only race that is likely guaranteed a non-slave origin in Tevinter is dwarf because of the relationship that has existed between them for centuries.

 

I think the choice the devs make on origins likely depends on their goals for the game. You have to remember that with DAO they didn't even know that there would BE a sequel, or a third game. The origins, and indeed the subsequent quest hubs, were a way to introduce the player to the world of Thedas. We hit almost everything except for peasant humans, and even get dash of Qunari. But even with those origins, the game plays out largely the same after arriving at Ostagar, barring some unique dialogue when the PC returned "home." This is due to the nature of being a Grey Warden; most of the NPCs looked at the PC as a Grey Warden, and not as an elf, a dwarf, or a human. The same was true for our Inquisitor.

 

They very well could go for the path where most everyone starts out as a slave and then is recruited in some manner.

 

It actually would be rather fun -- and about time, I say -- if they were to single out dwarves for special status in the next game. I say this as someone who prefers human.

[Lulupab]

Its illegal to make a Tevinter citizen a slave, so a mage who is also a Tevinter citizen is pretty much a "golden ticket".

[nightscrawl]

^ But I didn't say anything about being a citizen or not. Dorian specifically says there are mage slaves, and that is what I was referring to. Also, consider Alexius's dialogue with Fiona. The mages have to "work off their debt" for 10 years before they can become citizens and gain full rights.

 

The point is that there are mage slaves in Tevinter, so anyone talking about a potential mage origin and automatically thinking that it means they will be part of the laetan or altus class are incorrect.

 

I would also bet that the greater portion of mage slaves were born into slavery. For example, Fenris's sister, Varania. She and their mother were freed because of Fenris's (Leto's) action, but if they hadn't been, she would presumably still be a slave who was also a mage.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 18 juin 2016 - 02:06 .

[Lulupab]

^ But I didn't say anything about being a citizen or not. Dorian specifically says there are mage slaves, and that is what I was referring to. Also, consider Alexius's dialogue with Fiona. The mages have to "work off their debt" for 10 years before they can become citizens and gain full rights.

 

The point is that there are mage slaves in Tevinter.

 

I know but none of it contradict what we know about Tevinter.

 

Two groups cannot be made slaves:

 

1. Tevinter citizens

2. Dwarves

 

So this means mage slaves in Tevinter do not actually have Tevinter citizenship. Its also possible to renounce your citizenship. As for Alexius' offer, according to WoT Tevinter has always had harsh conditions for foreign mages who want to live in Tevinter. But they were given the right to live in Tevinter afterwards. David Gaider also confirmed this when fans asked him why mages of the south don't simply escape to Tevinter to be free of the circles. Of course the exact nature of this "harsh requirement" is unknown so it could be 10 years of servitude (not slavery) or something negotiable. This excludes potential abuse of this contract, officially they are not slaves. Actually Alexius might not have had the authority to make this deal because he was with Venatori and the mages were never going to go back to Tevinter to serve. But Fiona didn't know that.

 

So yes there are mage slaves in Tevinter, but they don't have Tevinter citizenship. So playing a mage from Tevinter should have the best life at the start of the game.

[Hellion Rex]

Narratively, having a game set in Tevinter, I would think starting as an actual citizen, a part of the system, would potentially be more impactful than necessarily being a slave or outsider.

For the elven mages, I could see them starting as a slaves and then manifesting magic, thus most likely catapulting themselves into mage society.

[nightscrawl]

So yes there are mage slaves in Tevinter, but they don't have Tevinter citizenship. So playing a mage from Tevinter should have the best life in the start of the game.

You are being contradictory. There are mage slaves, some of them from Tevinter, like Varania. So again, someone can be a mage from Tevinter and still be a slave.

Also, it depends on your perspective for "best life." It could very well be that some lowly laetan is serving as a questor in the middle of nowhere (to use Dorian's description) and be utterly miserable, while a dwarf member of the ambassadoria goes to lavish parties every evening.

 

Narratively, having a game set in Tevinter, I would think starting as an actual citizen, a part of the system, would potentially be more impactful than necessarily being a slave or outsider.

I agree there.

 

I only suggest it because I think it is a choice the devs might make if they want the various PC origins to be as close as possible. If they all come from the same place (slave origin), it's easier to have a story fork from there, than accounting for all of these origins. This is the same as with the Inquisitor and the way the game just drops you into the middle of things with no memory. Each origin would be starting from a place of neutrality.

 

For the elven mages, I could see them starting as a slaves and then manifesting magic, thus most likely catapulting themselves into mage society.

Unless this is referenced as background information, they can't do this because magic manifests around puberty. Any mage we play will already be an adult and whatever change in circumstances that resulted from their magic manifesting will have already happened. But again though, manifesting magic as a slave doesn't automatically do that.

[Lulupab]

By "from" I mean a Tevinter citizen. Who was born into a family of mages and went to a circle in Tevinter. It should be impossible to a find a slave with this background unless for some absurd reason they became a volunteer slave. 

[nightscrawl]

^ Well okay... but there's not a guarantee we will have that specific origin for a mage.

 

I want to play as an altus, but I'm not going to get my hopes up one way or the other about it. I'd actually like to be a non-mage altus to see what it's like, if they are looked on with disdain by mages (probably), learn what they do for education, and so on.

[Lulupab]

^ Well okay... but there's not a guarantee we will have that specific origin for a mage.

 

I want to play as an altus, but I'm not going to get my hopes up one way or the other about it. I'd actually like to be a non-mage altus to see what it's like, if they are looked on with disdain by mages (probably), learn what they do for education, and so on.

 

Altus would be best, and based on what we know a none-mage Altus should exist. But they would only keep their status because of their "magical" sperm/egg. The only thing expected from a none-mage Altus would be having mage children and looking after them.

[Gervaise]

Backing up what Nightcrawl says, just because you are a mage from Tevinter does not mean that you are a citizen of Tevinter.    There are three classes of citizen, two of them mage, Altus and Laetans, and one non-mage, the Soporati.   However, there is also the class of Liberati.   These are former slaves who have been freed but they are not citizens.   This is what Varania was.   So there are mages in Tevinter who are neither slave nor citizen.   Then there are the mage slaves, like Calpernia.   How they fair depends a lot on who their master is.   However, she was aware that a mage slave could be sent to the Circles simply to be used for magical experimentation, presumably for the same reason that elves are favoured; because there is magic in their blood and this makes spells more potent.   Apparently it is a good way to get a bit of favour with other Altus, letting them use your slave in that way.  So having magical ability is certainly not automatic for advancement and can actually have quite dire consequences if you are a slave.

 

The fact that anyone, apart from possibly dwarves, can be a slave in Tevinter seems a good starting point for a multi-race origin.   It would certainly make a change for a human PC not to be from a noble family.    However, I would think that even a dwarf could be a slave if they were castless; if that would make them a non-citizen in dwarf society, then why would Tevinter be any different?    Of course having the PC being from different backgrounds, citizen, non-citizen and slave would make it easier to introduce Tevinter society to those not familiar with it but would make it more complicated going forward.    Then again, they might revert to having just a human origin, depending on how they wish the story to go, as other races might have too many limitations.

[Xilizhra]

The fact that anyone, apart from possibly dwarves, can be a slave in Tevinter seems a good starting point for a multi-race origin.   It would certainly make a change for a human PC not to be from a noble family.    However, I would think that even a dwarf could be a slave if they were castless; if that would make them a non-citizen in dwarf society, then why would Tevinter be any different?    Of course having the PC being from different backgrounds, citizen, non-citizen and slave would make it easier to introduce Tevinter society to those not familiar with it but would make it more complicated going forward.    Then again, they might revert to having just a human origin, depending on how they wish the story to go, as other races might have too many limitations.

All surface dwarves are casteless and Tevinter has Thedas' largest surface dwarf population, but they still can't be enslaved.

[Hellion Rex]

^ Well okay... but there's not a guarantee we will have that specific origin for a mage.

I want to play as an altus, but I'm not going to get my hopes up one way or the other about it. I'd actually like to be a non-mage altus to see what it's like, if they are looked on with disdain by mages (probably), learn what they do for education, and so on.

Pretty sure all Altus are mages. I don't believe you can be Altus and not have magic.

[Gervaise]

I was thinking more of the casteless who have been branded as such.   Not quite the same as the surface dwarves in status.    I'm pretty sure if the writers wanted to make a dwarf a slave, they would find some way to explain it.

 

As for being a non-mage Altus, it would seem you probably would need to have very loving parents to survive.   I would imagine it would be such a stigma of shame to have produced someone with no ability, they would either be culled early in life or despatched to the army in Seheron to get them out of the way.   Look at what happened with Felix and his grandfather.   Felix was a mage but with only negligible ability, so his grandfather tried to have him killed.   It was only the actions of his mother that prevented this by assassinating her father-in-law, thus making Alexius the head of his family and safeguarding her son.   Altus children with no magic or little magic are a social embarrassment and therefore expendable.

[Iakus]

All surface dwarves are casteless and Tevinter has Thedas' largest surface dwarf population, but they still can't be enslaved.

Indeed.  Though interestingly they cannot be citizens either.  They are treated as foreign dignitaries.