I was thinking more of the casteless who have been branded as such. Not quite the same as the surface dwarves in status. I'm pretty sure if the writers wanted to make a dwarf a slave, they would find some way to explain it.
They could, but it would be illegal. Tevinter laws don't distinguish between the branded and the not.
Pretty sure all Altus are mages. I don't believe you can be Altus and not have magic.
Altus is a status granted by ancestry. Altus non-mages are entirely possible going by the criteria we've been given, though we haven't seen any firsthand. The closest example would be Felix, who had very limited spellcasting abilities despite being a mage, and so his grandfather tried to have him assassinated.That probably gives us a good idea of what happens to non-mages born into Altus families, but I could see a number of "uses" for such an individual for a family with backup heirs.
Please can you direct me to where it says dwarves cannot be slaves. In World of Thedas 1 it merely says that surface dwarves are not considered citizens but foreign dignitaries even if their houses have lived there for generations; clearly not the equivalent of casteless from Dust Town since these do not have houses as such. The Ambassadoria would appear to be made up from the surface merchant dwarves and those from the embassies, since many of the latter cannot stir outside their embassy for fear of being seen as having left the stone, they naturally need the surface dwarves to maintain contact with Orzammar. So whilst the majority of dwarves seem to have a special relationship with Tevinter, I can't find any reference to say that it is impossible for a dwarf to become a slave. In fact I could see the Ambassadoria specifically excluding the branded casteless from any arrangement they have with Tevinter.
The entry about slaves says that they are "mostly" elves and human. That means that there must be other races but to date we only know of two others, dwarves and qunari. These other slaves may be simply qunari prisoners or war and Tal'Vashoth but could equally be dwarves taken by slavers in the south or dwarves that were found guilty of some crime against the state which didn't automatically result in death. They may even have sold themselves into slavery if they were really hard up. I presume there must be poor dwarves out there somewhere.
Dwarven embassies in Minrathous, Neromenian, and Qarinus are entirely underground and are considered by dwarves to reside within the Stone, allowing those in the embassy to retain their caste. Some dwarves serving in Tevinter embassies never leave these underground fastnesses. No dwarves are known to be kept as slaves in the Imperium, presumably due to their fundamental importance to the Imperium in providing lyrium. They can also be hired by homes as overseers to the household's slaves.
Nobody used the word "impossible". There have been no known Dwarven slaves in Tevinter. No one knows what is happening in dark alleys and behind closed doors.
Where was this entry taken from? It reads like the entry from World of Thedas except specifically the bolded text to the end of the paragraph. So "No dwarves are known to be kept as slaves" through to "overseers to the household's slaves" is no longer there. So if the passage you are quoting is from an earlier published text than World of Thedas 1, it looks as though they may well have backtracked on this bit of lore.
Besides, why would they fear offending their dwarven allies by enslaving dwarves who have been branded as outcasts by their own society? It is pretty easy to distinguish between the two, since it is a very visible brand. They are not permitted to work as anything other than beggars or thieves in Orzammar, so why wouldn't they be considered fair game as slaves?
If any dwarves crop up as slaves in the next game, I'll try not to say "I told you so."
Where was this entry taken from? It reads like the entry from World of Thedas except specifically the bolded text to the end of the paragraph. So "No dwarves are known to be kept as slaves" through to "overseers to the household's slaves" is no longer there. So if the passage you are quoting is from an earlier published text than World of Thedas 1, it looks as though they may well have backtracked on this bit of lore.
Besides, why would they fear offending their dwarven allies by enslaving dwarves who have been branded as outcasts by their own society? It is pretty easy to distinguish between the two, since it is a very visible brand. They are not permitted to work as anything other than beggars or thieves in Orzammar, so why wouldn't they be considered fair game as slaves?
If any dwarves crop up as slaves in the next game, I'll try not to say "I told you so."
I don't know the actual reason. But one possible one is to avoid offending the carta, which is very much involved in trade between Orzamarr and the surface world.
Altus would be best, and based on what we know a none-mage Altus should exist. But they would only keep their status because of their "magical" sperm/egg. The only thing expected from a none-mage Altus would be having mage children and looking after them.
Pretty sure all Altus are mages. I don't believe you can be Altus and not have magic.
Altus is a status granted by ancestry. Altus non-mages are entirely possible going by the criteria we've been given, though we haven't seen any firsthand. The closest example would be Felix, who had very limited spellcasting abilities despite being a mage, and so his grandfather tried to have him assassinated.That probably gives us a good idea of what happens to non-mages born into Altus families, but I could see a number of "uses" for such an individual for a family with backup heirs.
Yepper, altus is just a social class. It is currently comprised of mostly mages because they purposely try to breed for magic. Regardless of your planning, genetics are still percentage based, so there is always a chance that you will get a different result. The non-mage altus may be few in number, but they probably do exist. And because there is that chance, a non-mage altus who still has both mage parents would still be a viable breeding partner, although probably less desirable.
I'm sure the status of these individuals really depends on the family that bore them. Even if Felix had been born a non-mage, I doubt that would have changed Alexius's affection in ANY way; he doted on his son and even sent him to the University of Orlais. I think it's a decent assumption to say that such mages are taught how to control their limited magical ability, and perhaps resist demons, and then educated in other areas.
I also think people (that is, players in general) put too great a stock in the mage aspect of Tevinter and fail to recognize how a non-mage would be utilized. Tevinter is a very large nation and a lot is required to keep it going, from mages and non-mages alike, using both magical and mundane tools. A person doesn't need magic to organize a filing system. A person doesn't need magic to study military strategy. A person doesn't need magic to organize the logistical aspect of a city. On and on and on.
I certainly do think that a non-mage altus would get little love from his peers. But completely useless outside of providing future genetic stock? Hardly.
I wasn't suggesting they would be considered useless, simply an embarrassment. Image does seem to be everything in Tevinter. So the majority of Altus wouldn't openly acknowledge the existence of their non-mage offspring and keep them hidden until they were old enough to be useful in other ways. Whilst in theory they could be used as part of a breeding program, the likelihood is that no other Altus family would want to risk an alliance unless the family was extremely powerful and they thought they might gain from it.
However, if you believe Dorian, family connection is not enough; it is all down to the likelihood of producing a mage from the union. I don't know how much the Tevene understand about genetics but I would imagine they would think that 2 mages mating would be a much better guarantee than one mage and one non-mage. You can imagine snooty Altus pointing to Alexius' family as an example of marrying for love instead of strong magical genes. Both Felix's parents were mages but clearly not carefully selected to maximise the magical potential. Of course we know this may not be the case and if they had had other children they might well have been strong in magic. Felix simply got the wrong combination of genes. Then again, it wasn't as though he didn't have any magical ability, just negligible magical ability. So who knows, may be other factors are involved.
It is funny but I would think in Tevinter the reaction to getting a non-mage child would be similar to getting a mage in southern Tevinter. In theory a non-mage Altus ought to be able to inherit their parent's seat in the Magisterium but I bet it never happens in practice.
I wasn't suggesting they would be considered useless, simply an embarrassment. Image does seem to be everything in Tevinter. So the majority of Altus wouldn't openly acknowledge the existence of their non-mage offspring and keep them hidden until they were old enough to be useful in other ways. Whilst in theory they could be used as part of a breeding program, the likelihood is that no other Altus family would want to risk an alliance unless the family was extremely powerful and they thought they might gain from it.
However, if you believe Dorian, family connection is not enough; it is all down to the likelihood of producing a mage from the union. I don't know how much the Tevene understand about genetics but I would imagine they would think that 2 mages mating would be a much better guarantee than one mage and one non-mage. You can imagine snooty Altus pointing to Alexius' family as an example of marrying for love instead of strong magical genes. Both Felix's parents were mages but clearly not carefully selected to maximise the magical potential. Of course we know this may not be the case and if they had had other children they might well have been strong in magic. Felix simply got the wrong combination of genes. Then again, it wasn't as though he didn't have any magical ability, just negligible magical ability. So who knows, may be other factors are involved.
It is funny but I would think in Tevinter the reaction to getting a non-mage child would be similar to getting a mage in southern Tevinter. In theory a non-mage Altus ought to be able to inherit their parent's seat in the Magisterium but I bet it never happens in practice.
You're forgetting about the fear factor with southern families, and also the "child has sinned against the Maker" factor. That is a big component in mage prejudice in the South that will not be a factor in Tevinter. It is the difference between being hated/feared, and merely looked down on as lesser.
I find it frustrating that so many people fail to consider alternate scenarios. They could marry the child off to a laetan family, or a less prominent altus family -- "Here, he's yours now, do whatever you want with him," afterward disowning them so as to disavow any family connection if they don't wish that sort of union. Some sort of "accident" might befall the child -- "Oh, our 12 year old got bit by a wyvern while out on an excursion and sadly died. Our youngest is being enrolled in such-and-such Circle next week! He's so excited!"
There is also the fact that the Circles will offer more than just magical training, just as our own schools. These mages still know how to write, and add, and know history, and all these things. I think it was said that Felix studied mathematics in the University of Orlais, but he had to learn the basics somewhere before going there. I wouldn't be surprised if there were limited educational opportunities at some Circles for non-mage children IF their parents make the decision to send them there. They might also just resort to private tutors because, as you say, it is an embarrassment.
Do I think a non-mage child would have an easy life? No, not in the least.
Eugenics and pedigree are a big aspect of Tevinter. Remember how Dorian mentions that he's the only child and heir of his family, the same with Alexius and Felix. Mage families literally put all their eggs into one basket. They never seem to try have more children, remarry or adopt. Not very smart.
Eugenics and pedigree are a big aspect of Tevinter. Remember how Dorian mentions that he's the only child and heir of his family, the same with Alexius and Felix. Mage families literally put all their eggs into one basket. They never seem to try have more children, remarry or adopt. Not very smart.
This is so weird to me. This is pretty much every magisterial family we hear about, Maevaris is an only child too, and barring magic sex reassignment, kids aren't happening with her either.
They should be popping more magical babies! For the glory of Tevinter!
Seriously though, what's up with all magisters having one child? Even Felix was the only child.
Yeah, nobody important sires heirs in Tevinter, it seems. Or Orlais. Or Nevarra. Or Ferelden.
Very strange, if this is all supposed to be coincidental.
Yeah, nobody important sires heirs in Tevinter, it seems. Or Orlais. Or Nevarra. Or Ferelden.
Very strange, if this is all supposed to be coincidental.
Orlais-Celene too old. Gaspard older. Both unmarried. Gaspard has it easier. Guys never stop making swimmers. So what's his excuse?
Nevarra-Too many heirs. When the king dies, there will be a war of succession between the Pentaghasts and the Van Markhams.
Ferelden- Maric was an idiot. His two sons, equally dense. One was a King another Grey Warden (and a King), and they both marry the same apparently barren woman! Great hair though.
Tevinter- Too stingy. The reverse with Nevarra, too few heirs. Why? Everyone's parents hate each other.
Eugenics and pedigree are a big aspect of Tevinter. Remember how Dorian mentions that he's the only child and heir of his family, the same with Alexius and Felix. Mage families literally put all their eggs into one basket. They never seem to try have more children, remarry or adopt. Not very smart.
This is so weird to me. This is pretty much every magisterial family we hear about, Maevaris is an only child too, and barring magic sex reassignment, kids aren't happening with her either.
I would hardly base such an assertion on that limited amount of families. We've not heard of the family details of other magisterial families. Those three could be an anomaly, or simply an oversight by the writers. They wanted to focus on Dorian and his issues, so he is an only child. They wanted to focus on Alexius and Felix, so he is an only child. They wanted to focus on Maevaris and her issues, so she is an only child. That doesn't mean that we won't meet other families that have multiple children at some later point.
However, I will say that it could be intentional to some degree to avoid familial infighting. Or there could be fertility issues due to generations of close breeding.
Yeah, nobody important sires heirs in Tevinter, it seems. Or Orlais. Or Nevarra. Or Ferelden.
Very strange, if this is all supposed to be coincidental.
Not accurate about Orlais. Emperor Emperor Judicael II had twin sons. His brother, Florian, had a daughter. All three of these died as a result of the Hundred Days Cough. Judicael II lost interest in ruling and died in a horse accident, leading Florian to succeed him. When Florian died, Celene became empress.
Florian had little interest in his own child, even before she died. He was rumored to have had his cousin (the one who ruled Ferelden) as a lover. If he was actually gay, that might explain the reason for only a single child and the lack of interest in that one, since he likely wasn't interested in producing her in the first place.
I'm not sure if Celene is gay or bi. Her supposed attempt to unite Orlais and Ferelden with Cailan doesn't necessarily speak to her sexuality, but only her ambition. Otherwise, she seems too independent to take a husband and become pregnant.
As far as it all being coincidence, some of it may be simply because it's easier for the narrative.
Also, don't forget the Vael family. Sebastian was the youngest of three.
Orlais-Celene too old. Gaspard older. Both unmarried. Gaspard has it easier. Guys never stop making swimmers. So what's his excuse?
Nevarra-Too many heirs. When the king dies, there will be a war of succession between the Pentaghasts and the Van Markhams.
Ferelden- Maric was an idiot. His two sons, equally dense. One was a King another Grey Warden (and a King), and they both marry the same apparently barren woman! Great hair though.
Tevinter- Too stingy. The reverse with Nevarra, too few heirs. Why? Everyone's parents hate each other.
Conclusion-Human Nobility is stupid.
It's just as likely (probably more, given his sleeping around and lack of bastards) that Cailan was the barren one.
It's just as likely (probably more, given his sleeping around and lack of bastards) that Cailan was the barren one.
Possibly.
Possibly.
Sorry for calling you out like that, I just really like Anora. At least she has a reason to be an only child though, right? Loghain loved another woman, and his wife died early.
Sorry for calling you out like that, I just really like Anora. At least she has a reason to be an only child though, right? Loghain loved another woman, and his wife died early.
It's just as likely (probably more, given his sleeping around and lack of bastards) that Cailan was the barren one.
Aye, it's a tad unfortunate that failure to get pregnant is often treated as if the issue lies with the woman, rather than the man.
Anora not having children with Cousland or Alistair does not show any evidence for her be infertile either, as it's canon that the chance for a Warden to have children gets increasingly more difficult the longer it has been since the Joining.
(The only reason the Dark Ritual worked at all was because Alistair, a male Warden or Loghain were all within their first year of being Joined. Plus y'know, Morrigan apparently using some kind of magic to make sure that conception did occur).
Especially as you say, Cailan sleeping around and having no illegitimate kids might suggest that he was the one who was infertile.
Unless Loghain did the Dark Ritual.
True. Anora and Kieran Mac Tir. I'd love to see them meet each other, especially if Morrigan was there too.
Sorry for calling you out like that, I just really like Anora. At least she has a reason to be an only child though, right? Loghain loved another woman, and his wife died early.
No problem my friend. The point of this thread to discuss matters in a civilized manner, we're not savages are we? While it's always nice to love your partner, love has very little to do with marriages in medieval fantasy worlds. Nice bonus, but not necessary. If you are a noble you marry because your parents set you up with someone so they can have grandkids to spoil and heirs for when you are in charge and then you do the same for your kids. The true circle of life.
If you are a noble you should be like the Vaels, the Trevelyans, or even the Montilyets! They have plenty of kids, and countless relatives, no risk of them having a lack of heirs or descendants.
Ah, but the Vaels and Trevelyans send their excess children to lives of drudgery (and celibacy) in the Chantry. I wonder if the Imperial Chantry (best Chantry) lets their priests marry? With a good number of Altus in the higher-ranks, it seems like it would be a necessity.
Ah, but the Vaels and Trevelyans send their excess children to lives of drudgery (and celibacy) in the Chantry. I wonder if the Imperial Chantry (best Chantry) lets their priests marry? With a good number of Altus in the higher-ranks, it seems like it would be a necessity.
Many Imperial priests do marry. Helps distinguish them from that heretical southern one and maintain important connections.
Ah, but the Vaels and Trevelyans send their excess children to lives of drudgery (and celibacy) in the Chantry. I wonder if the Imperial Chantry (best Chantry) lets their priests marry? With a good number of Altus in the higher-ranks, it seems like it would be a necessity.
Depends on what Tevinter's view on priests being married is under the Imperial Chantry, we're told that during the time of Old God worship they could, as Corypheus is mentioned as having a wife even as the High Priest of Dumat.
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