15947 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromelek]

Pretty good plan. Erase the Qun and the Chant from the minds of everyone. Basically a giant magical reset button.

What I mean is: How the heck it can be considered a "dragon cult" if the dude's plan is to steal the power from Dragons?

[Hellion Rex]

The Avvar gods can be... reborn? Y'know, a new spirit taking on the role.

Could old god cultists do the same for the Old Gods? Maybe make New Gods? The Old Gods do seem different from spirits, but they could have just been powerful spirits that took on flesh like Cole.

Although, Avvar seem more concerned about the roles of their gods, not their... ummm... personhood? Individual selves? Whatever.

If one doesn't wish to worship a being that transcends the Fade and material world, they could try to make their own gods or try to achieve godhood themselves. (Kind of reminds me of that baldurs gate setting, forgotten realms.)

Well, one of the Tevinter mages tried to make himself "an Ascended Man", which became an abomination so grotesque that his apprentices tore their own eyes out at the sight of him.

And it'd be interesting to see a mage try to summon forth the spirit of what they think is one of the Old Gods and bind it to a creature or other human mage.

[The Ascendant]

What I mean is: How the heck it can be considered a "dragon cult" if the dude's plan is to steal the power from Dragons?

Probably used Old God cult as a front to gather recruits. Because cults always tell the truth.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Pretty good plan. Erase the Qun and the Chant from the minds of everyone. Basically a giant magical reset button.

 

Would that really have worked though? What happens when all those people see written copies of the Chant of Light lying around in building's with the Maker's symbol on it? Or all the books that have the recorded history of the last thousand years? Even in the Imperium's heyday, it's conquered subject peoples never actually liked Tevinter.

[The Ascendant]

Would that really have worked though? What happens when all those people see written copies of the Chant of Light lying around in building's with the Maker's symbol on it? Or all the books that have the recorded history of the last thousand years? Even in the Imperium's heyday, it's conquered subject peoples never actually liked Tevinter.

Well compared to mass murder, terrorism and all out war, brainwashing is pretty benign in comparison. Let's not forget that the Chantry and the Qun committed equally horrible if not more so crimes than one power hungry Tevinter Magister. Then again a Tevinter Magister can do a lot of damage given the proper resources. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well compared to mass murder, terrorism and all out war, brainwashing is pretty benign in comparison. Let's not forget that the Chantry and the Qun committed equally horrible if not more so crimes than one power hungry Tevinter Magister. Then again a Tevinter Magister can do a lot of damage given the proper resources. 

 

I'm pretty sure Tevinter's list of crimes outweighs the Chantry's, and brainwashing the entire world is pretty high on that list, but I wasn't even talking about the moral implications anyway. I was talking about the practical effects. 

 

If the people of the South are brainwashed into forgetting the Chant and the fact that the Imperium doesn't rule, won't the physical reality they wake up to still remind them?

[The Ascendant]

Oh yeah. I suppose all those books, statues and cathedrals would be counterproductive if you want to convince people something doesn't exist. 

I'll get you next time!

[Yermogi]

One of my theories concerning the ancient elven gods and the Old Gods of Tevinter is that Fen'harel only locked away their consciousness, but that he did not also lock away their power. Without a will behind their magic, it sought a new host, and hence the Old Gods were born.

 

Let me put it this way. Take June. June was locked away, sent away, banished, what have you, by Fen'harel. So June herself, her personality and consciousness, is no longer present in Thedas. But her magic and power is still there, and merely needs a will to channel it. So then we find a dragon, a kind of dragon that is no longer seen in modern Thedas, because possibly they died out. That dragon somehow manages to find this magic, and is able to channel it into themselves, thus gaining the power and ability that the elven gods once had. Granted, it's a flawed concept and I can't really flesh out any of the holes you could easily poke in it, but to me, it seems too coincidental that the elven gods disappeared, and then the dragon gods pop up in the exact same number as the gods that just vanished.

 

And I have always been drawn to the Avvar religion myself, especially since I always play a mage (I love mages) and mages are a huge source of controversy for pretty much every group except the Avvar, the Chasind, and the Rivani. And to those groups, magic is a part of every day life! Now, if I were a mage in Thedas at the time of 9:41-43 and also happened to be a person who was religiously minded, I would probably look at all my options to see which one I should adhere to, since it would seem clear that something made all this.

 

First, we look at the Elven gods. Even if the elves would accept a non-elven convert (highly unlikely), there would still be no point. Their gods were great, but now they're gone, either dead, or out of our reach. So that's out.

 

Then, the Old Gods. Five of the seven are now dead and at some point it looks like the last two will also be corrupted, so they're out too.

 

Next we have the Qun. Well, we've seen how they treat mages and pretty much everyone, so that's a big HELL NO right there.

 

Lastly, we have the Chantry. Now, granted there are plenty of clergy who are not anti-mage and are sympathetic to the mages plight. But you can't deny that in Andrastian society, the mages get the short end of the stick. They're kept apart from 'regular' people who are taught that magic is dangerous, so of course mages are as well, and mages can't relate to regular people because, guess what, locking people in towers their entire lives isn't really conducive to social development. Not only that, but you also had templars guarding you at all times, giving you no privacy, basically forbidding you from forming meaningful relationships with anyone, and in some cases being outright abusive of their authority. If you put all that aside, we can go straight to the Maker and look at Him. The Maker is an absentee landowner, basically. He created everything, and then abandoned it. He has no interest in anyone, and doesn't care. I have always felt like praying to him is the Dragon Age equivalent of praying to Ao in DnD. Which is to say, pointless. And mages are mistreated in Andraste's name, so why should a mage worship her? Granted, it's likely that severe abuses of Andraste's original intent have occurred, but the result is what it is. So if all the Chantry offers is an uncaring creator god and a mage-hating prophet, what good does that do?

 

And finally, we have the Avvar/Chasind, who worship the same gods. I'm not going to include Rivain here since we don't know too much about them. But basically the Avvar and Chasind worship spirits, not demons, who become powerful and guide and protect their followers. These are 'gods' who actually speak to their followers, in signs, in weather, in dreams. They are not silent, they are not distant, they are real and involved. Now, can they be capricious? Yes, but they typically embody different kinds of nature, which moves without caring about humans. Even so, they can be appealed to for aid, and they DO aid people. The Avvar gods also do not die, because if the 'spirit' of one is killed, another one comes along and takes up the mantle, thus ensuring that the role itself never ends. And they're fine with mages! They don't hate them, they don't abuse them, they're a part of their lives and culture and that's that. Sure their way of life is different and can be harder, but being able to live with regular people and have gods to speak to who will actually reply would be HUGE. I feel like, for a mage disenchanted with 'mainstream' religion in Thedas, the Avvar spirits are the way to go. And I get the feeling that the Avvar would accept converts if they proved that they were sincere, which would be cool. So yeah, still would love to play an Avvar shaman who is thrust into the world of 'civilized' Thedas because it would be so different from what we've seen thus far.

 

What really pushed me to this view was Cole in Inquisitions. I was already kind of leaning towards that, but then I played Jaws of Hakkon, and the Avvar relationships to spirits just reminded me so much of my own Inquisitor's interactions with Cole. Cole is a spirit of Compassion who somehow took the form of a human, and now spends all his time trying to help people. He cares about others! He wants to help them! He isn't human, but he's there and doing more than a lot of humans are able to. Is he hard to understand? Sure, but at the end he just wants to help people. It's not that hard to understand why the Avvar are drawn more to spirits who are actually present than to some uncaring 'over god' who left his creations by themselves.

[Andromelek]

Oh yeah. I suppose all those books, statues and cathedrals would be counterproductive if you want to convince people something doesn't exist. 
I'll get you next time!

Well, if Titus was able to put the whole party on a delusion just using the blood of one old guy, I guess he could make an even bigger had he succeeded in capturing Alistair and the Queen of Dragons, which could have given enough time to erase the most notorious remnants of the Qun and the Chantry.

[The Ascendant]

One of my theories concerning the ancient elven gods and the Old Gods of Tevinter is that Fen'harel only locked away their consciousness, but that he did not also lock away their power. Without a will behind their magic, it sought a new host, and hence the Old Gods were born.

 

Let me put it this way. Take June. June was locked away, sent away, banished, what have you, by Fen'harel. So June herself, her personality and consciousness, is no longer present in Thedas. But her magic and power is still there, and merely needs a will to channel it. So then we find a dragon, a kind of dragon that is no longer seen in modern Thedas, because possibly they died out. That dragon somehow manages to find this magic, and is able to channel it into themselves, thus gaining the power and ability that the elven gods once had. Granted, it's a flawed concept and I can't really flesh out any of the holes you could easily poke in it, but to me, it seems too coincidental that the elven gods disappeared, and then the dragon gods pop up in the exact same number as the gods that just vanished.

 

And I have always been drawn to the Avvar religion myself, especially since I always play a mage (I love mages) and mages are a huge source of controversy for pretty much every group except the Avvar, the Chasind, and the Rivani. And to those groups, magic is a part of every day life! Now, if I were a mage in Thedas at the time of 9:41-43 and also happened to be a person who was religiously minded, I would probably look at all my options to see which one I should adhere to, since it would seem clear that something made all this.

 

First, we look at the Elven gods. Even if the elves would accept a non-elven convert (highly unlikely), there would still be no point. Their gods were great, but now they're gone, either dead, or out of our reach. So that's out.

 

Then, the Old Gods. Five of the seven are now dead and at some point it looks like the last two will also be corrupted, so they're out too.

 

Next we have the Qun. Well, we've seen how they treat mages and pretty much everyone, so that's a big HELL NO right there.

 

Lastly, we have the Chantry. Now, granted there are plenty of clergy who are not anti-mage and are sympathetic to the mages plight. But you can't deny that in Andrastian society, the mages get the short end of the stick. They're kept apart from 'regular' people who are taught that magic is dangerous, so of course mages are as well, and mages can't relate to regular people because, guess what, locking people in towers their entire lives isn't really conducive to social development. Not only that, but you also had templars guarding you at all times, giving you no privacy, basically forbidding you from forming meaningful relationships with anyone, and in some cases being outright abusive of their authority. If you put all that aside, we can go straight to the Maker and look at Him. The Maker is an absentee landowner, basically. He created everything, and then abandoned it. He has no interest in anyone, and doesn't care. I have always felt like praying to him is the Dragon Age equivalent of praying to Ao in DnD. Which is to say, pointless. And mages are mistreated in Andraste's name, so why should a mage worship her? Granted, it's likely that severe abuses of Andraste's original intent have occurred, but the result is what it is. So if all the Chantry offers is an uncaring creator god and a mage-hating prophet, what good does that do?

 

And finally, we have the Avvar/Chasind, who worship the same gods. I'm not going to include Rivain here since we don't know too much about them. But basically the Avvar and Chasind worship spirits, not demons, who become powerful and guide and protect their followers. These are 'gods' who actually speak to their followers, in signs, in weather, in dreams. They are not silent, they are not distant, they are real and involved. Now, can they be capricious? Yes, but they typically embody different kinds of nature, which moves without caring about humans. Even so, they can be appealed to for aid, and they DO aid people. The Avvar gods also do not die, because if the 'spirit' of one is killed, another one comes along and takes up the mantle, thus ensuring that the role itself never ends. And they're fine with mages! They don't hate them, they don't abuse them, they're a part of their lives and culture and that's that. Sure their way of life is different and can be harder, but being able to live with regular people and have gods to speak to who will actually reply would be HUGE. I feel like, for a mage disenchanted with 'mainstream' religion in Thedas, the Avvar spirits are the way to go. And I get the feeling that the Avvar would accept converts if they proved that they were sincere, which would be cool. So yeah, still would love to play an Avvar shaman who is thrust into the world of 'civilized' Thedas because it would be so different from what we've seen thus far.

 

What really pushed me to this view was Cole in Inquisitions. I was already kind of leaning towards that, but then I played Jaws of Hakkon, and the Avvar relationships to spirits just reminded me so much of my own Inquisitor's interactions with Cole. Cole is a spirit of Compassion who somehow took the form of a human, and now spends all his time trying to help people. He cares about others! He wants to help them! He isn't human, but he's there and doing more than a lot of humans are able to. Is he hard to understand? Sure, but at the end he just wants to help people. It's not that hard to understand why the Avvar are drawn more to spirits who are actually present than to some uncaring 'over god' who left his creations by themselves.

 

 

Being an Avvar was one of the scrapped ideas for Origins. And while we are human centric here, we are mostly Tevinter centric my friend. While some may applaud the idea of playing a Human Barbarian, we tend to focus on the more, cultured side of humanity. Still I applaud your ideas and thanks for the likes. Human Mages for the win!

[Yermogi]

Being an Avvar was one of the scrapped ideas for Origins. And while we are human centric here, we are mostly Tevinter centric my friend. While some may applaud the idea of playing a Human Barbarian, we tend to focus on the more, cultured side of humanity. Still I applaud your ideas and thanks for the likes. Human Mages for the win!

Oh, I am super excited to play in Tevinter, I was just saying if we're talking about religions other than Andrastianism (or however you put it) it feels like Spirit worship is the way to go, especially for a mage.

[The Ascendant]

Oh, I am super excited to play in Tevinter, I was just saying if we're talking about religions other than Andrastianism (or however you put it) it feels like Spirit worship is the way to go, especially for a mage.

I believe the Rivaini have a concept called the Natural Order. Based on descriptions they sounds alot like the Avvar. And their Circle was apparently very pleasant. Before the Templars killed everyone, again. Yeah I dislike it how if your human its almost assumed you worship the Maker, then again tolerance isn't a strong suit of the Chantry, or any religion in Thedas for that matter.

[IHaveReturned1999]

I don't know how you guys love Tevinter so much after the evils they've done, and they started off as an evil nation who enslaves elves and stripped of their own heritage, stole elven knowledge of magic to have superiority over everyone, and racism against elves is more violent.

[vertigomez]

I don't know how you guys love Tevinter so much after the evils they've done, and they started off as an evil nation who enslaves elves and stripped of their own heritage, stole elven knowledge of magic to have superiority over everyone, and racism against elves is more violent.

Good thing Tevinter's not real, then. Just like Orzammar and Kirkwall and all the other butt-numbingly horrible places in this setting.

[raging_monkey]

Oh, I am super excited to play in Tevinter, I was just saying if we're talking about religions other than Andrastianism (or however you put it) it feels like Spirit worship is the way to go, especially for a mage.

agreed spirit worship is much more allureing. Chances are the maker is just a sirit akin to nightmare that for old and smart about his power.

[raging_monkey]

Good thing Tevinter's not real, then. Just like Orzammar and Kirkwall and all the other butt-numbingly horrible places in this setting.

don't engage the grimline please it will will only multiply... Can't even later their speech pattern

[IHaveReturned1999]

Good thing Tevinter's not real, then. Just like Orzammar and Kirkwall and all the other butt-numbingly horrible places in this setting.

I know is not real but it's based on history of how slavery, genocide, and racism can destroy people and it continues this legacy malevolent system that destroys the elven people.

[nightscrawl]

Both Dorian and Calpernia want to...
 

 
(Thanks Washington Post.)

[raging_monkey]

Well tevinter for all its faults is fine as is as was the south. This will work itself out

[IHaveReturned1999]

What I mean is: How the heck it can be considered a "dragon cult" if the dude's plan is to steal the power from Dragons?

Well if you want to get down to it, the Dragon Cult is a death cult because it encourages blood magic and sacrificing victims. They're cult is entirely out of evil and lust for power.

[Andromelek]

Well if you want to get down to it, the Dragon Cult is a death cult because it encourages blood magic and sacrificing victims. They're cult is entirely out of evil and lust for power.

Well, I doubt any cult isn't bad, but my point is that "Dragon cult" would mean that they do shitty things in the name of Dragons, not shitty things to Dragons.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Well, I doubt any cult isn't bad, but my point is that "Dragon cult" would mean that they do shitty things in the name of Dragons, not shitty things to Dragons.

But that is a death cult and it's entirely based on the various versions of the Bible of how Dragon is a symbol of Satan. And performing blood magic to sacrifice for power and worship dragons is Satanism.

https://en.m.wikiped...eistic_Satanism

[vertigomez]

Both Dorian and Calpernia want to...  (Thanks Washington Post.)

But that is a death cult and it's entirely based on the various versions of the Bible of how Dragon is a symbol of Satan. And performing blood magic to sacrifice for power and worship dragons is Satanism. https://en.m.wikiped...eistic_Satanism

Don't be ridiculous. Satan only answers to ME, not deluded cultists.

[Andromelek]

But that is a death cult and it's entirely based on the various versions of the Bible of how Dragon is a symbol of Satan. And performing blood magic to sacrifice for power and worship dragons is Satanism. https://en.m.wikiped...eistic_Satanism

Huh, Dragon Age's Dragons aren't evil, at best they're savage, then again they were (or at least Titus was) trying to get the Dragon's blood as well, so that's not worship.

[raging_monkey]

Huh, Dragon Age's Dragons aren't evil, at best they're savage, then again they were (or at least Titus was) trying to get the Dragon's blood as well, so that's not worship.

don't engage the gremlin. You'll get a headache